Does it matter where your degree comes from?

Frank Lee Midere · 08-05-2014 12:32PM

TimeToShine wrote: »

True, but very, very few people go into academia. Of a class of a 100 I'd say at least 60 will leave with a bachelors, 30 would go on and do a masters and maybe 5 would do a PhD. In any case the lecturers job is to cater to the majority, people who go into academia are generally very capable and less in need of help than the rest. Also, and this is just my opinion, in Engineering and Comp Sci. in particular you'll find that the very best of the best generally try and get out of Ireland for their PhD and rightly so.

Very few people need a PhD in either engineering or software because it's not really much of a help going forward.

I wonder how they apply these criteria to other European universities. I am interviewing an East European today with vast experience and I hadn't glanced at his university until this thread. Now that I have I am none the wiser. I won't be asking for his result either, although he said it was a 1.1. Don't care. The experience matters far more.

I wonder what percentage of non Irish the web summit hire? Sounds like a form of racism and classism going on here.

username123 · 08-05-2014 12:39PM

TimeToShine wrote: »

True, but very, very few people go into academia. Of a class of a 100 I'd say at least 60 will leave with a bachelors, 30 would go on and do a masters and maybe 5 would do a PhD. In any case the lecturers job is to cater to the majority, people who go into academia are generally very capable and less in need of help than the rest. Also, and this is just my opinion, in Engineering and Comp Sci. in particular you'll find that the very best of the best generally try and get out of Ireland for their PhD and rightly so.

I meant that comment to be tongue in cheek. Universities only really caring about themselves, the students are such a nuisance really....

Do many people study for the fun of it and not for career progression I wonder? I do. I wonder how common it is. The university doesnt matter in such a case but I find I have still researched the places, checked their rankings, gotten a general feel online for how they are viewed.

errlloyd · 08-05-2014 12:42PM

I think it's a pretty dumb policy tbh, and what's strange about it is that it seems so different from the policy of so many tech companies around right now.

GarIT · 08-05-2014 12:46PM

What I find strange is trinity has possibly the worst CS department of any uni the east coast. It might be about the same as DCU but that's about it.

pauliebdub · 08-05-2014 12:50PM

It depends.

Id look at someones experience, what can that person do? Have they gotten involved in open source projects? what have they developed? how do they work within teams? Are they open to continued learning?

While the average Trinity graduates may be smarter than the average Sligo IT graduate by virtue of the fact that Trinity is much harder to get into, it varies from person to person within the course. Some Trinity graduates might be great at passing exams but that doesnt nescessarily translate into good workers or problem solvers whilst someone from Sligo IT could be exceptional but simply couldnt afford or didnt want to move to Dublin.

josip · 08-05-2014 12:56PM

When I graduated from Trinity Comp Sci, I think about 60% of those sitting finals got either Is or II.Is.
If it's still the same, then including II.Is in the criteria is not going to filter out Joe average.
Is it still a BA Mod Comp Sci that Trinity confers?

Amirani · 08-05-2014 12:57PM

GarIT wrote: »

What I find strange is trinity has possibly the worst CS department of any uni the east coast. It might be about the same as DCU but that's about it.

This opinion of yours is based on what? The fact that you study in Maynooth?

ballsymchugh · 08-05-2014 01:00PM

if your degree is from a CAO/CAS entry course, then there's not going to be a whole lot of difference in the course material is there?

however, if you go to a private fee paying third level college, then i'm always wary. would anyone take serious advice from someone, who say, went to the college of naturopathic medicine to become a nutritional therapist?

http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/rosanna-graduates-in-style-and-is-now-on-a-mission-to-change-the-way-we-eat-29992213.html

DublinWriter · 08-05-2014 01:01PM

Celly Smunt wrote: »

Not particularly, the lecturers in the likes of Sligo IT would be people employed from the professional background with many years experience within the field rather than trinity which would employ a more academic lecturer with limited experience in the real world.

Not at all - when I was doing my IT under and postgrad degrees at TCD a lot of the lecturers were part time and had full time jobs in Revenue, Accenture, etc.

Only about 50% of our lecturers were fulltime TCD staffers.

dashcam5586 · 08-05-2014 01:06PM

Funny considering most people I've met from trinity are fairly thick in the head.
Might be rich and got great a great leaving cert but that doesnt mean anything.

GarIT · 08-05-2014 01:08PM

Diego Simeone wrote: »

This opinion of yours is based on what? The fact that you study in Maynooth?

The course material. I have no problem,saying UCD has by far the best CS department in the country and Maynooth isn't as good as it. Trinity's course material is quite outdated and DCU hands out degrees for anything, everyone knows computer applications is the easiest course of any uni CS course to pass, that's the reason it is one of the most popular CS courses in the country but has relatively low points.

josip · 08-05-2014 01:09PM

dashcam5586 wrote: »

Funny considering most people I've met from trinity are fairly thick in the head.
Might be rich and got great a great leaving cert but that doesnt mean anything.

They may be more likely to check their coursework before submitting it.
Or proof read their posts...

Amirani · 08-05-2014 01:09PM

dashcam5586 wrote: »

Funny considering most people I've met from trinity are fairly thick in the head.
Might be rich and got great a great leaving cert but that doesnt mean anything.

Most people in TCD aren't rich. Why does getting a great Leaving Cert "not mean anything"? I'm fairly sure it means something, it may not mean a lot, but it does mean something.

Amirani · 08-05-2014 01:12PM

GarIT wrote: »

The course material. I have no problem,saying UCD has by far the best CS department in the country. Trinities course material is quite outdated and DCU hands out degrees for anything, everyone knows computer applications is the easiest course of any uni CS course to pass, that's the reason it is one of the most popular CS courses in the country but has relatively low points.

I'd be interested in discussing this further. I've an interest in the area, though I'm not directly involved, could you do a comparison between the course material in UCD versus TCD/DCU for example? Or even a reference to a comparison somewhere would be fine.

I'm not attacking your assertion, I'm just genuinely interested in the differences.

snaphook · 08-05-2014 01:13PM

First's in IT.

Fail in PR.

CramCycle · 08-05-2014 01:15PM

Meathlass wrote: »

A graduate with 4 years experience in their eyes is a better employment bet than one with 3.

batistuta9 wrote: »

Would they not know a 3y is a BSc and 4y is BSc(hons)?

Beat me to it, 3 years is ordinary level and does not confer speciality, the 4th year in most courses in Science/Engineering/Mathematics, gives most students skills which are close to MSc level.

josip wrote: »

When I graduated from Trinity Comp Sci, I think about 60% of those sitting finals got either Is or II.Is.

Diego Simeone wrote: »

This opinion of yours is based on what? The fact that you study in Maynooth?

My old flatmate finished top of his class in trinity CS with little effort (admittedly a very smart guy) but had to go and upskill before he was employable for many jobs he had an interest in. Another friend also finished top of his class two years later in the same course and got a job with MS based solely on projects that he worked on outside of college, his degree was like a min. requirement in the same way that I required Maths to get into college. It was necessary but had no affect on his employability other than eligibility.

gandalf · 08-05-2014 01:15PM

TBH the degree is only an indication that the person is adept at exams and university assignments. It really isn't an indication of their ability in real world situations.

Looking quickly at the jobs on offer with them the majority require soft skills which normally come with experience and not academic learning. I think Mr. Cosgrove is being very short sighted in limiting the scope of candidates with this particular policy although the more cynical part of me is thinking that this is a means to keep their name in the media which is he very good at doing.

I don't have a degree, I have technical qualifications. I have worked with a number of people who were very high academic achievers (on paper!) but who were absolutely useless at the jobs they were given because they had no experience of the "real world".

For the jobs that the Web Summit are hiring for Analytics, Data + Engineering I can understand and endorse the stance, they do need to have a level of competency in these areas. For the Sales, Marketing, HR, CS and other roles your qualification should be considered but your experience should be the item that decides whether you get an interview or not. Using what degree you got and where you got it from is a lazy form of HR profiling and is excluding candidates from consideration who could potentially help make the enterprise far more successful.

Davarus Walrus · 08-05-2014 01:20PM

I work for a company who has a requirement for a large number of engineers. Across many of the engineering disciplines. The quality of graduate being churned out of many of the institutes/2nd rate universities wouldn't be great these days, and it's becoming increasingly difficult to find people of the required standard to fill even entry-level engineering positions.

TCD, and to a lesser extent, UL, are still producing some excellent young graduates, who tend to progress quicker in their careers. They've a more balanced range of skills, and are far more likely to make junior or middle management within 10 years than those from other 3rd level institutes.

Sugar Free · 08-05-2014 01:20PM

A lot of anti-university and in particular anti-TCD comments here. Employers have been filtering candidates based off results and university for a long time.

It may not necessarily be the best way to do it as people have alluded to here but it's not going to change. Just take a look at the requirements for tonnes of graduate programs like Glanbia, Accenture, GSK etc.

pundy · 08-05-2014 01:21PM

Degree or not, yiz wont get a job.

CramCycle · 08-05-2014 01:31PM

GarIT wrote: »

Trinity's course material is quite outdated

That was my understanding as well.

Sugar Free wrote: »

A lot of anti-university and in particular anti-TCD comments here. Employers have been filtering candidates based off results and university for a long time.

True, and there is nothing wrong with it. But in a course where the lectures mark the course work as it should be marked firsts should be rare and as someone who worked in 2 different third level institutes I am wary of courses that have too many firsts as it shows either too much guidance, easy course work or lazy marking.

Long story short, if you only look at firsts, you are excluding alot of potentially fine, if not better workers.

tritium · 08-05-2014 01:32PM

As a commercial enterprise, if someone wants to hamstring themselves by basing hiring practice on a narrow sighted criteria then good luck to them

When it all goes pear shaped theyll probably have someone with a 'mere' 2.2 buying the shell of their company or managing their bankruptcy

Davarus Walrus · 08-05-2014 01:35PM

CramCycle wrote: »

Long story short, if you only look at firsts, you are excluding alot of potentially fine, if not better workers.

Depends on the career. For many of the 'hard sciences', mathematics, computer science and engineering jobs, having a 1st from TCD marks you out as a better calibre of candidate that those who present with a 2.2 from somewhere like NUIG or DIT. Employers don't really have the time, money, or indeed, inclination to spend time getting to explore the various nuances that might make 2.2 a viable employee - especially for a career where they are expected to hit the ground running.

08-05-2014 01:39PM

tritium wrote: »

As a commercial enterprise, if someone wants to hamstring themselves by basing hiring practice on a narrow sighted criteria then good luck to them

When it all goes pear shaped theyll probably have someone with a 'mere' 2.2 buying the shell of their company or managing their bankruptcy

You're making a pretty big assumption that they are hamstringing themselves.

These threads always bring about vast amounts of anecdotal evidence about amazing candidates who went to low level ITs etc. which completely misses the point that those situations are the outliers and that companies filter out universities and results etc. because as a general rule it will give them better candidates. Its simply not worth their time trawling through hundreds of applications to find the one or two people who may buck the trend.

the_syco · 08-05-2014 01:44PM

The Leaving Cert is standardised throughout Ireland. The college degrees, however, are not. The same subject may be graded differently at two different colleges.

And I'd say very few college do exactly the same course.

CramCycle · 08-05-2014 01:44PM

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

Depends on the career. For many of the 'hard sciences', mathematics, computer science and engineering jobs, having a 1st from TCD marks you out as a better calibre of candidate

Math I would agree with, not CS though for reasons already mentioned in thread.

that those who present with a 2.2 from somewhere like NUIG or DIT.

What about those who got a 2.1 or 2.2, got out there, got a job and gained invaluable experience from the ground up, or got a project/internship that showed they have the mettle for the job. Or those who set up side projects that showed innovation but did not translate well onto the exam page. Excluding people because of their degree even if someone else in the industry has tested them and shown that they are a good investment seems a bad idea.

I will admit that you need filters but IMO, a first may not be a suitable filter,

Frigga_92 · 08-05-2014 01:45PM

I found this very disheartening reading this morning to be honest.

My husband is, as I type this in fact, sitting his final year exams for his Honours Degree in Manufacturing Engineering from WIT.
He went back and did his leaving cert as a mature student in his early 20s and did various courses while working throughout his 20s and early 30s until he was made redundant from Waterford Crystal in 2007.
He has about 15 years experience at various levels and now has the qualifications to match his experience.

I hope that this attitude is not indicative of the attitude of employers in general.
It is a very disheartening attitude to read of at this time of year when so many students are doing exams.

Sugar Free · 08-05-2014 01:58PM

26sdrawkcab wrote: »

I found this very disheartening reading this morning to be honest.

My husband is, as I type this in fact, sitting his final year exams for his Honours Degree in Manufacturing Engineering from WIT.
He went back and did his leaving cert as a mature student in his early 20s and did various courses while working throughout his 20s and early 30s until he was made redundant from Waterford Crystal in 2007.
He has about 15 years experience at various levels and now has the qualifications to match his experience.

I hope that this attitude is not indicative of the attitude of employers in general.
It is a very disheartening attitude to read of at this time of year when so many students are doing exams.

I think that's a different situation though, as your husband has 15 years of experience, a lot of which could be very relevant to his degree and/or desired field of work once he graduates.

It's a lot different to a young graduate whose only experience may well be the projects they did in college or some minor freelance stuff they did for free.

Also, if he's based around Waterford (which I'm assuming he is from his choice of college), there are numerous pharma and other advanced manufacturing companies there that could be very interested in someone like him

josip · 08-05-2014 02:01PM

26sdrawkcab wrote: »

I found this very disheartening reading this morning to be honest.

My husband is, as I type this in fact, sitting his final year exams for his Honours Degree in Manufacturing Engineering from WIT.
He went back and did his leaving cert as a mature student in his early 20s and did various courses while working throughout his 20s and early 30s until he was made redundant from Waterford Crystal in 2007.
He has about 15 years experience at various levels and now has the qualifications to match his experience.

I hope that this attitude is not indicative of the attitude of employers in general.
It is a very disheartening attitude to read of at this time of year when so many students are doing exams.

Fair play to him and encourage him to get that First Class Honour and then there'll be no problem, either real or imaginary.
Head down for the next few weeks. Cut out all distractions. Study hard.
You keep him going with mugs of tea.
A good night's sleep the night before and plenty of caffeine the morning of the exams.
Go for that First.

"Aim for the moon, if you miss you may hit a star". W Clement Stone

ryan101 · 08-05-2014 02:01PM

A mere degree is the equivalent of junior cert these days

Does it matter where your degree comes from?

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