Student hit by bus settles for 9million euro

Pro Hoc Vice · 06-05-2014 07:28PM

Custardpi wrote: »

From the article linked in the OP. The kid was obviously scared into doing something stupid.

From the judgement,

"2.3 Evidence was adduced which the court accepts from a number of the plaintiff’s fellow student (sic) to the effect that on one or two occasions prior to 4th February, 2009, when the plaintiff and his friends were making a similar journey, they had been involved in an altercation with local youths, a few years older than the plaintiff’s group, who had congregated on the green area beside Herbert Road confronting the students verbally, brandishing hurleys and on one occasion there was apparently an exchange of snowballs."

Went on

"2.4 The plaintiff’s friends stated, and I accept, that they became agitated at the prospect of a confrontation with the youths and they started altering their positions in the group and that the plaintiff said words to the effect that he had done nothing wrong and he did not want to get involved and he suddenly ran out at an angle to get to the other side to the road.”

But of course the media must be correct and the evidence given under oath in the a High Court must of course be wrong. My reading is on previous occasions older boys did bold things, on the day of the accident the plaintiff decided to avoid any possible altercation.

Patser · 06-05-2014 07:29PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Read the SC judgement it's linked above.

Yep. It was posted there as I was typing and I read it afterwards. It suggests drivers sound their horn as they approach children to warn of their presence, move to the centre of the road to give space and slow down. So we'll end up with buses swerving down the road, while lurching along accelerating and braking while merrily beeping away everytime it's school finishing time.

Pro Hoc Vice · 06-05-2014 07:31PM

yawhat! wrote: »

Nearly as bad as that one that slipped on the icey steps and was awarded one million. I guarantee next winter we are going to have a load of people slipping on icey steps. Hey slip on some steps which is your own stupidity and have a free million yoyo's!

I feel for the kid but if he ran out in front of the bus why should they have to pay 7 million?
God Forbid If I was driving along and some kid jumped out in front of me would I be liable for 7 million?

Did you read the judgement and why 1 High Court and later 3 Supreme Court judges decided as they did. So 4 judges after hearing all the evidence in court and reading the relevant law made an incorrect decision according to posters who have read a news paper article.

Custardpi · 06-05-2014 07:31PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

From the judgement,

"2.3 Evidence was adduced which the court accepts from a number of the plaintiff’s fellow student (sic) to the effect that on one or two occasions prior to 4th February, 2009, when the plaintiff and his friends were making a similar journey, they had been involved in an altercation with local youths, a few years older than the plaintiff’s group, who had congregated on the green area beside Herbert Road confronting the students verbally, brandishing hurleys and on one occasion there was apparently an exchange of snowballs."

Went on

"2.4 The plaintiff’s friends stated, and I accept, that they became agitated at the prospect of a confrontation with the youths and they started altering their positions in the group and that the plaintiff said words to the effect that he had done nothing wrong and he did not want to get involved and he suddenly ran out at an angle to get to the other side to the road.”

But of course the media must be correct and the evidence given under oath in the a High Court must of course be wrong. My reading is on previous occasions older boys did bold things, on the day of the accident the plaintiff decided to avoid any possible altercation.

That doesn't contradict the article, just gives more details. The fact that he ran into the road "to avoid any possible altercation" is not in dispute.

darkpagandeath · 06-05-2014 07:33PM

The article and the judgement use the word child a lot, Are we expected to expect children running onto the motorway. if the person was of such an age to not be responsible for their own actions where was the supervising adult ?

Pro Hoc Vice · 06-05-2014 07:33PM

Patser wrote: »

Yep. It was posted there as I was typing and I read it afterwards. It suggests drivers sound their horn as they approach children to warn of their presence, move to the centre of the road to give space and slow down. So we'll end up with buses swerving down the road, while lurching along accelerating and braking while merrily beeping away everything it's school finishing time.

That's not what it says, it say drivers must be aware of possible issues with children and should not be engaged in conversations with passengers when approaching a number of youths. As put in evidence "they were engaged in “just young teenaged boy stuff, not particularly malevolent or anything about their actions. It wasn’t fighting in any way”. They were “bobbing”"

punisher5112 · 06-05-2014 07:36PM

We bus driver's I can say are not paid enough and by the way things are going have to be able to see into the future.

I myself have had people bounce off the bus walking out or running out, cyclists cycling into the side and many many more incidents.

Did I force them to do these things NO I did not.

As I said in previous post why aren't people been held responsible for their own actions.

Dublin Bus drivers are some of the highest trained drivers out there and I would guess that shows in that there isn't more accidents and deaths.

punisher5112 · 06-05-2014 07:38PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

That's not what it says, it say drivers must be aware of possible issues with children and should not be engaged in conversations with passengers when approaching a number of youths. As put in evidence "they were engaged in “just young teenaged boy stuff, not particularly malevolent or anything about their actions. It wasn’t fighting in any way”. They were “bobbing”"

What can a driver do if a passenger comes up to them and starts asking questions.
This happens all the time.

So does this mean a person driving their car cannot speak to other passengers?

It's only been brought up because it's in db Bye Laws.

Pro Hoc Vice · 06-05-2014 07:40PM

punisher5112 wrote: »

We bus driver's I can say are not paid enough and by the way things are going have to be able to see into the future.

I myself have had people bounce off the bus walking out or running out, cyclists cycling into the side and many many more incidents.

Did I force them to do these things NO I did not.

As I said in previous post why aren't people been held responsible for their own actions.

Dublin Bus drivers are some of the highest trained drivers out there and I would guess that shows in that there isn't more accidents and deaths.

While I agree with you, and the judgement says once the bus driver say the child he did everything possible. The reason DB was held liable is that is a period of seconds the driver did not notice the youths early enough and most importantly the injured boy, from the HC judgement "“4.14 The holding of a conversation with a passenger though of itself prohibited does not automatically render the driver to be negligent. What is required is that the driver be alert to the possibility of danger. Mr. J McN and Mr. O’S state and I will accept for the purpose of this judgment that conversation had ceased between them by 16.53:38, however, even if conversation had ceased, both their faces maintained smiles (which suggest that a joke had been exchanged) almost up to the accident. In the case of Mr. O’S the smiling is continued up to 16.53:41 and in the case of Mr. J McN up to 16.53:43, it seems clear that the previous if terminated conversation was of such a nature as to have distracted Mr. O’S from what was in front of him."

Pro Hoc Vice · 06-05-2014 07:42PM

punisher5112 wrote: »

What can a driver do if a passenger comes up to them and starts asking questions.
This happens all the time.

So does this mean a person driving their car cannot speak to other passengers?

It's only been brought up because it's in db Bye Laws.

A bus driver is a professional and has control of a much larger vehicle than a car, which I assume requires far more skill. But if a car driver hit a child in the same circumstances he to would be held liable as the conversation distracted him from seeing what may happen. Every day as drivers we get distracted but as drivers it is our duty to other road users not to be distracted and to drive with full attention on the road, any one of us could have been that driver, that fact does not absolve any one of us of liability in the same situation.

BTW my opinion any driver could face a prosecution in an accident for at least careless driving if their was evidence that the driver was distracted by talking with a passenger.

The High a Court judge went on to say

"Cross J. was of the view that had Mr. O’S seen the boys on the pavement acting boisterously and changing position he would have slowed down. He went further and added that Mr. O’S “could have and should have” applied his brakes from about fifty yards back. He also concluded that the bus could and should have been moved out towards the right. He added that had the driver seen the boys acting boisterously, the driver would have and should have blown his horn. Critically, he concluded that the bus driver, because of the distraction of the conversation with the passenger, or otherwise, did not see the boys for a number of seconds after they were available to be seen and in those circumstances, Cross J. concluded that the bus driver did not have the time to make the judgment he ought to have made as to the potential hazard presented by the boys earlier. He added that the driver did not have the time to be conscious of the fact that the boys were acting boisterously."

That is the case in a nutshell.

darkpagandeath · 06-05-2014 07:49PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

A bus driver is a professional and has control of a much larger vehicle than a car, which I assume requires far more skill. But if a car driver hit a child in the same circumstances he to would be held liable as the conversation distracted him from seeing what may happen. Every day as drivers we get distracted but as drivers it is our duty to other road users not to be distracted and to drive with full attention on the road, any one of us could have been that driver, that fact does not absolve any one of us of liability in the same situation.

BTW my opinion any driver could face a prosecution in an accident for at least careless driving if their was evidence that the driver was distracted by talking with a passenger.

How do you stop a passenger talking at you ? Even if your not engaged in the conversation that is still distracting. If the child was not in the bus drivers peripheral vision for example should one be only looking at the pavements and not the road ? surely then you are distracted looking at pavements ? and not concentrating on driving on the road you are on. I would argue swinging your had from left to right checking pavements for children and not looking at the road ahead would be worse.

Patser · 06-05-2014 07:50PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

That's not what it says, it say drivers must be aware of possible issues with children and should not be engaged in conversations with passengers when approaching a number of youths. As put in evidence "they were engaged in “just young teenaged boy stuff, not particularly malevolent or anything about their actions. It wasn’t fighting in any way”. They were “bobbing”"

It's pretty much exactly what it says, and as you state above this was just general kids stuff happening, nothing out of the ordinary. Yet the recomendations from the Judges was

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

He went further and added that Mr. O’S “could have and should have” applied his brakes from about fifty yards back. He also concluded that the bus could and should have been moved out towards the right. He added that had the driver seen the boys acting boisterously, the driver would have and should have blown his horn.

So brake, swerve and beep as I said, if you see kids acting normally on the footpath

Pro Hoc Vice · 06-05-2014 07:51PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

How do you stop a passenger talking at you ? Even if your not engaged in the conversation that is still distracting.

If a driver feels distracted by any issue he can control he should stop it, "shut the feck up" might work or slow the vehicle down and politely ask the person to stop annoying you, I would rather hurt a passengers feelings than injury a person or kill them.

theKillerBite · 06-05-2014 07:53PM

punisher5112 wrote: »

We bus driver's I can say are not paid enough and by the way things are going have to be able to see into the future.

Dublin Bus drivers are the 6th highest paid drivers in the world. http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/paying-too-much-for-everything-has-cost-us-26562147.html

Dublin Bus should get rid of the interaction with the driver. Not only does it increase dwell time, but from this incident distracts the driver and increased the danger. We should move towards the Luas model, with off-street ticketing.

Pro Hoc Vice · 06-05-2014 07:53PM

Patser wrote: »

It's pretty much exactly what it says, and as you state above this was just general kids stuff happening, nothing out of the ordinary. Yet the recomendations from the Judges was

So brake, swerve and beep as I said, if you see kids acting normally on the footpath

Read the judgement, but the important bit,

"Cross J. was of the view that had Mr. O’S seen the boys on the pavement acting boisterously and changing position he would have slowed down."

Its a high standard all drivers are held to and good reasons for that.

punisher5112 · 06-05-2014 07:55PM

theKillerBite wrote: »

Dublin Bus drivers are the 6th highest paid drivers in the world. http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/paying-too-much-for-everything-has-cost-us-26562147.html

Dublin Bus should get rid of the interaction with the driver. Not only does it increase dwell time, but from this incident distracts the driver and increased the danger. We should move towards the Luas model, with off-street ticketing.

I wish we were highly paid for been a proffesional as they like to call us why aren't we paid as one.

How could the bus work like the Luas there are over 5000 bus stops.

theKillerBite · 06-05-2014 08:09PM

punisher5112 wrote: »

How could the bus work like the Luas there are over 5000 bus stops.

Off the top of my head:

Use your phone to buy the ticket - like the Bus Éireann app allows currently - with a tag on/off feature to prevent fraud
Buy tickets from a shop & on-street vending machines
Buy your ticket online and print it yourself - just like most concert tickets are nowadays

Custardpi · 06-05-2014 08:11PM

theKillerBite wrote: »

Off the top of my head:

Use your phone to buy the ticket - like the Bus Éireann app allows currently - with a tag on/off feature to prevent fraud

Buy tickets from a shop & on-street vending machines

Buy your ticket online and print it yourself - just like most concert tickets are nowadays

Not everyone has a smart phone or access to a printer, especially not at the side of the road. If you suddenly have to get a bus in an area where the nearest ticket agent is a good distance away what do you do?

Pumpkinseeds · 06-05-2014 08:25PM

I'm probably missing something but why was a 12 year old child from a foreign country wandering around Dublin, without adult supervision?

punisher5112 · 06-05-2014 08:27PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I'm probably missing something but why was a 12 year old child from a foreign country wandering around Dublin, without adult supervision?[/QUOTE

Seems to be all the rage...

Let someone else worry about it from what I see is the attitude.

Pro Hoc Vice · 06-05-2014 08:28PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I'm probably missing something but why was a 12 year old child from a foreign country wandering around Dublin, without adult supervision?

So it's not normal for students irish or from another country to walk either to or from school together. I am assuming it was school as the friends are described as students. I see first year students walking home from school many a time with out a parent or adult supervision.

darkpagandeath · 06-05-2014 08:34PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

So it's not normal for students irish or from another country to walk either to or from school together. I am assuming it was school as the friends are described as students. I see first year students walking home from school many a time with out a parent or adult supervision.

Then they have made a conscious choice to be responsible for their own actions ? As if they are adult enough to walk home unsupervised they are adult enough not to run onto the road. I dislike the word child being used here constantly it was not a 2-3 year old running out the garden onto the road. It was a person of high enough age to know and be responsible for their own actions. Yes it’s sad but seems a bit much to put 70% of the blame on the driver. Running onto the road contributed 100% to the accident.

Pro Hoc Vice · 06-05-2014 08:40PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Then they have made a conscious choice to be responsible for their own actions ? As if they are adult enough to walk home unsupervised they are adult enough not to run onto the road. I dislike the word child being used here constantly it was not a 2-3 year old running out the garden onto the road. It was a person of high enough age to know and be responsible for their own actions. Yes it’s sad but seems a bit much to put 70% of the blame on the driver. Running onto the road contributed 100% to the accident.

Again have you read the decision. The plaintiff is described as a minor in the case and in law is a minor. Drivers owe a duty of care to all users of the road but are expected to be even more vigilant with minors. But of course you not having seen the numerous CCTV feeds, nor hearing the evidence of a number of people who actually saw the accident, you are sure that 1 high court and 3 Supreme Court judge got it wrong.

Alun · 06-05-2014 08:41PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I'm probably missing something but why was a 12 year old child from a foreign country wandering around Dublin, without adult supervision?

Firstly it wasn't Dublin, it was Bray. There's a language school there (Brook House, Los Sauces, google it) that caters for kids of school age to come here and learn English in an immersive environment. They stay with host families in Bray and walk to and from the school along the road in question (Herbert Road). I live just a short distance from where it happened, and it's not at all uncommon to see groups of them walking along the (not that wide) pavement together, and invariably they're messing around, so I slow down when I'm driving past them, as the bus driver should have also. Any driver who was a regular on that route would have seen this kind of thing on a regular basis too.

Pumpkinseeds · 06-05-2014 08:42PM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

So it's not normal for students irish or from another country to walk either to or from school together. I am assuming it was school as the friends are described as students. I see first year students walking home from school many a time with out a parent or adult supervision.

He was a 12 year old child from a different country. If he had been supervised by an adult it's highly unlikely that the incident would have happened. If we were talking about this happening to an Irish child of the same age in another country there would be uproar as to why it was allowed to happen.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 06-05-2014 08:45PM

No amount of money could compensate him for his injuries. I hope it makes his and his parents life a little easier.

Pro Hoc Vice · 06-05-2014 08:45PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

He was a 12 year old child from a different country. If he had been supervised by an adult it's highly unlikely that the incident would have happened. If we were talking about this happening to an Irish child of the same age in another country there would be uproar as to why it was allowed to happen.

He was here as a Spanish student I assume learning English, they usually live with a host family for a number of months. It is normal for thousands of them to come to ireland every summer and most do not end up in this situation. The court accepted the child should not have run out on the road but it also accepted the driver should not have been distracted and if he had not been distracted he would have braked earlier.

miss no stars · 06-05-2014 08:58PM

punisher5112 wrote: »

I wish we were highly paid for been a proffesional as they like to call us why aren't we paid as one.

How could the bus work like the Luas there are over 5000 bus stops.

Because bus drivers are skilled workers, not professionals.

I feel terrible for the driver and for the kid and I'd be inclined to call it more 50/50 but obviously the judge reckoned on 70/30. There are signs quite clearly stating not to talk to the driver on the bus. Yet old codgers seem to think that doesn't apply to them and sure they're grand to talk to the bus driver. If the bus driver ignores, they're criticized as being rude and unsociable, yet if they engage... Look what can happen... Damned if they do, damned if they don't. I can imagine there'll be a clamp down on it now though.
As for the kid? A 12 year old is a kid. And for those who reckon a 12 year old shouldn't walk a few hundred yards down the road unsupervised? Join the real world please. Although they're not a small child, they're still not an adult. They don't have road awareness or cop on and for that reason they aren't allowed to drive. Ever see (as a driver) a group of school kids of that age on the footpath ahead? They're oblivious to the road. They don't notice it and even if they do, they reckon they're invincible. That's why the vast majority of people will keep a good eye on them as they approach, will move out and/or slow down. It's a basic. It's reasonable to assume that the driver would normally have slowed down and/or moved out. But he was distracted by the guy talking to him. I feel sorry for him, he didn't ask to be distracted by the passenger and he didn't ask to mow down and seriously injure a kid. Horrible thing to have happen. He probably thought he was having a good day, nice passenger to have a laugh with instead of being snarled at, but unfortunately he allowed himself to be distracted by the conversation. It meant he didn't see the situation developing ahead of time. It meant that it was only after the child was on the road that he noticed what was happening and at that point, too late.

I feel desperately sorry for both parties, but CIE aren't blameless as some here seem to reckon they are. Good drivers scan for and behave proactively about potential hazards ahead. A group of kids is an obvious potential hazard.

darkpagandeath · 06-05-2014 09:10PM

Have they stopped teaching 1st year primary school kids dangers of the road and not to go on them as you will get run over ? It's around the same time you learn not to talk to strangers. Don't run off alone and so on so forth. Basic stuff. I know 6 year olds that know not to go on the road. I think you can say the driver was aware of children in the area as he was 10 kph under the limit 40 kph is just under 25 miles an hour how slow do you need to drive ?

miss no stars · 06-05-2014 09:14PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Have they stopped teaching 1st year primary school kids dangers of the road and not to go on them as you will get run over ? It's around the same time you learn not to talk to strangers. Don't run off alone and so on so forth. Basic stuff. I know 6 year olds that know not to go on the road. I think you can say the driver was aware of children in the area as he was 10 kph under the limit 40 kph is just under 25 miles an hour how slow do you need to drive ?

I think you can say that if he was fully aware of them he wouldn't have been joking with someone he shouldn't even have been talking to in the first place and would have (and could have) reacted earlier to the kid darting into the road.

Student hit by bus settles for 9million euro

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