how to spell these names? And which do you prefer? :)

yabbadabbadoo · 26-04-2014 11:29AM #1

Hi folks,

Please excuse me for not having the skill to post as Gaeilge...

We are due a little girl and trying to choose between Eilís & Alannah.

Eilís after my mother who is Elizabeth. I understand that there should be a fada on the E but can't seem to get it on a capital. Where I'm from, I've only ever encountered this name on older women around 60 and it's pronounced Eye-lish. I assume this is a legitimate pronunciation, and would mean knocking off that second fada?
I know in Munster it's Eye-leash. I've only met one girl with that name & it sounded odd to me. What do you think?

As for Alannah, my husband thinks this is a sexier name, but my mother thinks its kind of a non-name, just meaning 'child' though I have fond memories of an affectionate old woman calling me this as a little one. So, Alannah, Alana? Is there a legitimate spelling in Gaeilge? or would you consider it a bit made up or thrashy even?

What kind of women are Eilis and Alannah?

I should also note my husband is from the US & we may move there, so want an Irish name that travels well but sounds a little bit unique, fresh over there. We understand that it may not bring its 'baggage' with it, if you know what I mean. We are also open to any other suggestions.

Go rabh maith agat

Alan Shore · 26-04-2014 04:50PM

On the basis of experience if you give a child an Irish name that has a fada in it they will spend their lives correcting people who mispronounce it.

Most Irish people pronounce Ciarán, Kieran.
So Eilís may become Eilish to stop it become Eilis. If you do go to the States it would be a bigger battle.

Alanna is an Americian name while it phonetically works for "Alanna mo Cree" Leanbh mo Chroi it would work better in the long term. Most people would not get the link though!

Rhedyn · 27-04-2014 02:39AM

Eilís - is the correct spelling, there is no fada on the capital.
Eye-lish = is the pronunciation that spelling gives you.
To leave out the fada is simply incorrect.

Unfortunately even in Irish society most English speakers don't respect Irish spelling, so your daughter will probably have to explain the fada often. I don't think it would be a bigger problem in the States, America has many minority languages and the largest, Spanish, also has accents. They have better rights for their language than Irish has in Ireland.

Alannah - is not an Irish name. It is an anglicisation of "a leanbh" from the pronunciation of that term. It is a term of endearment often used in Irish (in Connemara in particular) but never given as a child's name among Irish native speakers.

There are plenty other nice girl's names. But with the exception of a few of them English speakers, even without the fada,will have a problem with the correct pronunciation.

Sorcha - is one of my own favourites.

ezra_pound · 27-04-2014 08:21AM

Rhedyn wrote: »

Eilís - is the correct spelling, there is no fada on the capital.
Eye-lish = is the pronunciation that spelling gives you.
To leave out the fada is simply incorrect.

This is incorrect.

An í in Irish is a long ee sound so eilís would be pronounced -eesh at the end.

Teyla Emmagan · 27-04-2014 08:26AM

Alannah is awful IMO :-)

Rhedyn · 27-04-2014 08:29AM

ezra_pound wrote: »

This is incorrect.

An í in Irish is a long ee sound so eilís would be pronounced -eesh at the end.

Yes I agree "-eesh" is closer to the sound.

You can hear it on Forvo (dot) com - it won't let me post the url.

Benny Cake · 27-04-2014 08:35AM

yabbadabbadoo wrote: »

Hi folks,

Please excuse me for not having the skill to post as Gaeilge...

We are due a little girl and trying to choose between Eilís & Alannah.

Eilís after my mother who is Elizabeth. I understand that there should be a fada on the E but can't seem to get it on a capital. Where I'm from, I've only ever encountered this name on older women around 60 and it's pronounced Eye-lish. I assume this is a legitimate pronunciation, and would mean knocking off that second fada?
I know in Munster it's Eye-leash. I've only met one girl with that name & it sounded odd to me. What do you think?

As for Alannah, my husband thinks this is a sexier name, but my mother thinks its kind of a non-name, just meaning 'child' though I have fond memories of an affectionate old woman calling me this as a little one. So, Alannah, Alana? Is there a legitimate spelling in Gaeilge? or would you consider it a bit made up or thrashy even?

What kind of women are Eilis and Alannah?

I should also note my husband is from the US & we may move there, so want an Irish name that travels well but sounds a little bit unique, fresh over there. We understand that it may not bring its 'baggage' with it, if you know what I mean. We are also open to any other suggestions.

Go rabh maith agat

Slightly off topic and probably not my business but speaking from experience I would advise allowing inlaws an input into choosing your baby's name. It should be down to you and your partner, choose one that you like, not one that pleases granny....

yabbadabbadoo · 27-04-2014 09:19PM

Bennycake, I think you are completely right! I really wish I had never consulted my mother... a long and bitter story!

Back on topic, I'm leaning strongly towards Eilis - but the Eyelish form of that. Would it be really awful to spell it Eilish?

Any ideas where I could go to get the definitive story on that fada on the i ? And no fada on the E then?

Go raibh maith agaibh arís xxx

An gal gréine · 29-04-2014 01:35PM

yabbadabbadoo wrote: »

Back on topic, I'm leaning strongly towards Eilis - but the Eyelish form of that. Would it be really awful to spell it Eilish?

Any ideas where I could go to get the definitive story on that fada on the i ? And no fada on the E then?

Go raibh maith agaibh arís xxx

Eilís is the standard, however, in the Ulster version A-lish (as in Danish) would be the norm and if you were to write that it would be Éilis.

An gal gréine · 30-04-2014 01:53PM

Just noticed an election poster in Dublin Central for one of the prospective councillors, an independent, and her first name is spelt Éilis.

nosietoes · 30-04-2014 03:39PM

Éilis would be pronounced A-lish rather than Eilís which is pronounced eye-leesh

username123 · 30-04-2014 03:53PM

Someone I know has named a child Caitlin (there may be a fada somewhere) but they pronounce it Kate-land, I always thought that name as pronounced Cotch-Lynn (excuse the phonetic spelling).

hullaballoo · 30-04-2014 04:28PM

Fadas are unnecessary for capital letters. This general rule applies to most languages that use our alphabet. The rule is that it's up to you whether you use the accent unless it is preferable to differentiate words.

In Irish, ait and áit are an example of two different words where it is preferable to use an accent if capitalising. Admittedly I cannot think of a sentence where the two words could be confused if taken in context.

Rhedyn · 30-04-2014 05:34PM

hullaballoo wrote: »

In Irish, ait and áit are an example of two different words where it is preferable to use an accent if capitalising. Admittedly I cannot think of a sentence where the two words could be confused if taken in context.

Áit ait é seo.

Aard · 30-04-2014 07:24PM

hullaballoo wrote: »

Fadas are unnecessary for capital letters. This general rule applies to most languages that use our alphabet. The rule is that it's up to you whether you use the accent unless it is preferable to differentiate words.

That's not true - Irish always uses the fada even when a vowel is capitalised. It's never optional. When have you ever seen the word Éire written without a fada?

TitianGerm · 30-04-2014 07:31PM

My girlfriend has always wanted to call her first daughter Siofra. I think there is a fada in there somewhere but she's the irish speaker

yabbadabbadoo · 01-05-2014 12:09PM

Siofra is a fab name, have a few friends with kids called that though.

Am I wrong in thinking the Ay-lish pronunciation is Gaelic for Alice & therefore a different name?

hullaballoo · 01-05-2014 12:38PM

Aard wrote: »

That's not true - Irish always uses the fada even when a vowel is capitalised. It's never optional. When have you ever seen the word Éire written without a fada?

Sorry, but it is true.

ireland-1971-eire-decimal-issue-sg-294-fine-mint-27761-p.jpg

username123 · 01-05-2014 12:59PM

hullaballoo wrote: »

Sorry, but it is true.

Eire without a fada means "burden".

hullaballoo · 01-05-2014 01:04PM

username123 wrote: »

Eire without a fada means "burden".

I suppose that's why it's rarely seen without a fada. Nonetheless, my point stands - when capitalising, accents are not strictly necessary but are preferable where a lack of capitalisation could give rise to confusion.

username123 · 01-05-2014 01:18PM

hullaballoo wrote: »

I suppose that's why it's rarely seen without a fada. Nonetheless, my point stands - when capitalising, accents are not strictly necessary but are preferable where a lack of capitalisation could give rise to confusion.

I dont agree that your point stands. I think that that postage stamp was actually an error.

I think the fada is always necessary.

An gal gréine · 01-05-2014 01:29PM

yabbadabbadoo wrote: »

Siofra is a fab name, have a few friends with kids called that though.

Am I wrong in thinking the Ay-lish pronunciation is Gaelic for Alice & therefore a different name?

Ailís is Alice in English; different name.

Grudaire · 01-05-2014 02:18PM

hullaballoo wrote: »

I suppose that's why it's rarely seen without a fada. Nonetheless, my point stands - when capitalising, accents are not strictly necessary but are preferable where a lack of capitalisation could give rise to confusion.

I've never heard this before either, and I'm inclined to disagree that it is 'correct' to leave out the fada.

Given how many versions of Irish exist I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case in certain areas, but I doubt 'an Caighdeán Oifigiúil' would agree.. had a quick google and can't see anything online, I'd be curious that if you have a source, could make an interesting read!

hullaballoo · 01-05-2014 02:45PM

Grudaire wrote: »

I've never heard this before either, and I'm inclined to disagree that it is 'correct' to leave out the fada.

Given how many versions of Irish exist I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case in certain areas, but I doubt 'an Caighdeán Oifigiúil' would agree.. had a quick google and can't see anything online, I'd be curious that if you have a source, could make an interesting read!

I had a look myself and I cannot see anything to back myself up so I'm beginning to doubt it myself. My "source" is my Irish teacher from school who was quite the linguist, speaking at least 5 languages fluently.

I suppose I just accepted what he said as authoritative and never questioned it but I can see how omitting fadas would be unworkable in most circumstances.

Grudaire · 01-05-2014 02:56PM

The state of Irish education eh? :P

Insect Overlord · 01-05-2014 03:10PM

There's a chance you might be confusing it with a different rule. When using an urú before a vowel, you'd usually add a "-" between the urú and that vowel (e.g. ár n-athair, an t-arán). That fleiscín isn't needed when using capital letters (e.g. an tAthair Peadar Ua Laoghaire).

username123 · 01-05-2014 03:34PM

hullaballoo wrote: »

I suppose I just accepted what he said as authoritative and never questioned it but I can see how omitting fadas would be unworkable in most circumstances.

Course it doesnt help when the State is actually producing stamps that include the error!

Aard · 01-05-2014 08:05PM

If your teacher spoke several languages, then he may have been referring to French where it certainly is the done thing not to accent upper case letters. Or perhaps he assumed by association that all languages with diacritics work like that.

deirdremf · 06-05-2014 09:18PM

hullaballoo wrote: »

I had a look myself and I cannot see anything to back myself up so I'm beginning to doubt it myself. My "source" is my Irish teacher from school who was quite the linguist, speaking at least 5 languages fluently.

I suppose I just accepted what he said as authoritative and never questioned it but I can see how omitting fadas would be unworkable in most circumstances.

I had a teacher who said the same, but he was wrong - he was trying to apply a French rule to Irish.
In Irish the fada is always written - if you want to be correct.
Just look at the surnames in Ó, for instance, to go no further!

To get back to the name Éilis, IMO it should be spelt with a fada on the E.
Nonetheless, you often see it written without, even in Irish language texts.

ViveLaVie · 08-05-2014 03:13PM

Grudaire wrote: »

I've never heard this before either, and I'm inclined to disagree that it is 'correct' to leave out the fada.

Given how many versions of Irish exist I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case in certain areas, but I doubt 'an Caighdeán Oifigiúil' would agree.. had a quick google and can't see anything online, I'd be curious that if you have a source, could make an interesting read!

It's the case in French so that lends credence to the statement that it's true of many languages.

Aard · 08-05-2014 05:29PM

ViveLaVie wrote: »

It's the case in French so that lends credence to the statement that it's true of many languages.

Eh no, it lends credence to the statement that it's true for French. What an extrapolation.

how to spell these names? And which do you prefer? :)

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