Double standards at MTV awards

boogle · 15-04-2014 1:19pm #1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycYYm7n4Y4E

Anyone else find all this a bit irritating?
Firstly, if a man walked over to a female actor and exposed parts of her body like that, there would be absolute hell to pay. So why is it ok for Rita to do that? I guess he didn't look too annoyed about it and took his shirt off completely, but how was he supposed to react?

That leads me to the second thing that I find annoying. The fact that there was a "Best Shirtless Performance" award being given out. Clearly this is just a male award. Imagine an award for "Best Cleavage Performance" for the girls. The whole thing is just sexist, and when I hear all the screams from the audience, it pisses me off. Imagine a crowd of guys hooting and baying at a female on the stage like that, it would be condemned.

Obviously Zac Efron is ok with this because he turned up to accept his award, and went along with the fun and games. Is this because men haven't traditionally had to fight against being objectified in films and the media in the same way women have?

baby and crumble · 15-04-2014 1:23pm

In fairness, male chests are not sexualised like women's are.

I agree that if man ripped off a womans shirt there's be uproar but it isn't comparing like for like.

And it was not a male only award. Jennifer Aniston was also nominated.

boogle · 15-04-2014 1:27pm

Ok, didn't realise the category was for both male and female. So fair enough I suppose??

Saying it's not comparing like for like doesn't stand up for me though. Listen to the screaming there. If that's not sexual, I don't know what is!

baby and crumble · 15-04-2014 1:32pm

I'm not saying she was right to do it. At all. I think it's tacky and sets a bad precedent that girls taking off men's clothes without permission is ok. Obviously it isn't.

But I stand by my comment that men's chests aren't sexualised in the same way. Women may find them sexy, but if a male strips to his bare chest in public he is not breaking any laws. I would be. Surely that alone is proof that male and female chests are viewed differently? Apparently my nipples are obscene, yours aren't.

Pawwed Rig · 15-04-2014 1:36pm

We are dealing with a channel that screens such shows as 'My Super Sweet 16'. 'From G's to Gents', 'Jersey Shore', 'Pimp my Ride' & 'Cribs'. High brow it ain't. You are really dealing with the lowest common denominator here. It is sexist, brash, tacky, irrelevant. It has all the isms except racism (unless you are a rapper) and homophobia (unless you are a rapper).

People like Zac Efron have nothing else to them other than this type of hero worship. He is someone needs to whore himself out in this manner whereas someone with talent or brains would make a better life for themselves.

This is the rock bottom of 'entertainment' and should be ignored by all right thinking people. Change will trickle down to these type of shows but it is easier to make the changes at a higher level.

boogle · 15-04-2014 1:36pm

baby and crumble wrote: »

I'm not saying she was right to do it. At all. I think it's tacky and sets a bad precedent that girls taking off men's clothes without permission is ok. Obviously it isn't.

Well I completely agree with you there and that's my major gripe with the whole thing. I'm suprised that there has been no commentary on her actions at all.

baby and crumble · 15-04-2014 1:38pm

boogle wrote: »

Well I completely agree with you there and that's my major gripe with the whole thing. I'm suprised that there has been no commentary on her actions at all.

It's because that no one thinks women can assault a man. In that, I agree with your proposed double standard in the thread title.

But there is a lot more to it than simple chest baring.

John Cherry · 15-04-2014 1:46pm

Rita Ora can tear off my shirt anytime and the last thing I would be thinking is double standards.

Fine looking woman she is

um7y1h83ge06nx · 15-04-2014 1:54pm

Ah double standards, how I hate you.

As has been said a lot of this forum, it's often not the act that we see as offensive more the fact if the sexes were reversed society would have a very different opinion.

Then as Pawwed Rig has said MTV caters to the rock bottom of entertainment. Still even though we here can see through this, teenagers of both sexes may still be influenced by it.

Standman · 15-04-2014 2:25pm

It was probably planned anyway, his shirt was conveniently tear-off-able. The thing that annoys me about the MTV awards is the MTV awards, which is why I don't watch it.

boogle · 15-04-2014 3:49pm

Standman wrote: »

The thing that annoys me about the MTV awards is the MTV awards, which is why I don't watch it.

Ha! So you're saying that we're missing the greater evil in all of this; The MTV Awards themselves. Good point.

catallus · 15-04-2014 7:17pm

We should be celebrating double standards rather than having the same tired knee-jerk reactions to this kind of thing; it is proof-positive that there are differences between men and women.

sailornaruto39 · 17-04-2014 7:15am

catallus wrote: »

We should be celebrating double standards rather than having the same tired knee-jerk reactions to this kind of thing; it is proof-positive that there are differences between men and women.

That makes no sense, we all no that men and women are different and that's ok, double standards are not

Dravokivich · 17-04-2014 12:15pm

I don't find it irritating. MTV is targeting the same audience as teen magazines. Their shows are always going to be presented with some flavour of sexuality as that's a big part of developing as a teenager. It's what most of us wanted to express, experience and enjoy. After a quick glance over the video, it seemed to be done as a bit of fun. Looking at it any other way is just putting more thought into the clip than was intended and misses the point.

It's only a problem if you look to make one of it as far as I'm concerned.

sailornaruto39 · 17-04-2014 12:54pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

I don't find it irritating. MTV is targeting the same audience as teen magazines. Their shows are always going to be presented with some flavour of sexuality as that's a big part of developing as a teenager. It's what most of us wanted to express, experience and enjoy. After a quick glance over the video, it seemed to be done as a bit of fun. Looking at it any other way is just putting more thought into the clip than was intended and misses the point.

It's only a problem if you look to make one of it as far as I'm concerned.

Everybody should be allowed to enjoy sexual urges, but not at the expense of consent. "a bit off fun" doesn't excuse that act, does consent mean nothing to you?

This specific instance may not be too serious, but it's indicative of an annoying double standard that is gaining power. Everytime a man is sexually wronged by a woman(in small ways) she usually gets away with it. Guys are usually expected to just shut up "because they like it"

Dravokivich · 17-04-2014 2:39pm

sailornaruto39 wrote: »

Everybody should be allowed to enjoy sexual urges, but not at the expense of consent. "a bit off fun" doesn't excuse that act, does consent mean nothing to you?

This specific instance may not be too serious, but it's indicative of an annoying double standard that is gaining power. Everytime a man is sexually wronged by a woman(in small ways) she usually gets away with it. Guys are usually expected to just shut up "because they like it"

Consent is very important, but what has that got to do with this topic? No one appeared to be harassed in any way or made to do something they didn't want to part take in.

Standman · 17-04-2014 2:50pm

sailornaruto39 wrote: »

Everybody should be allowed to enjoy sexual urges, but not at the expense of consent. "a bit off fun" doesn't excuse that act, does consent mean nothing to you?

This specific instance may not be too serious, but it's indicative of an annoying double standard that is gaining power. Everytime a man is sexually wronged by a woman(in small ways) she usually gets away with it. Guys are usually expected to just shut up "because they like it"

Just because some people over react about some things, doesn't mean we must over react also in some kind of attempt to balance out the "double standard".

sailornaruto39 · 17-04-2014 3:10pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Consent is very important, but what has that got to do with this topic? No one appeared to be harassed in any way or made to do something they didn't want to part take in.

Well if you believe it's important how could you not see the harassment? His shirt was ripped off from him without his consent no?

Standman wrote: »

Just because some people over react about some things, doesn't mean we must over react also in some kind of attempt to balance out the "double standard".

Well that's not what I'm doing, I think my reaction is proper, it's you who's under-reacting.

I'm not trying to balance out anything. I just don't approve of double standards, or ripping people's clothes off without their permission. No matter what any of you say there is a double standard and ripping off someone's clothes like that isn't cool.

Dravokivich · 17-04-2014 3:26pm

sailornaruto39 wrote: »

Well if you believe it's important how could you not see the harassment? His shirt was ripped off from him without his consent no?

If he had a problem with being objectified in such a way, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't show up to the event. It also seemed likely to be a stunt.

I still don't see the issue. People are putting more thought into it, than there is.

Standman · 17-04-2014 4:13pm

sailornaruto39 wrote: »

Well if you believe it's important how could you not see the harassment? His shirt was ripped off from him without his consent no?

Well that's not what I'm doing, I think my reaction is proper, it's you who's under-reacting.

I'm not trying to balance out anything. I just don't approve of double standards, or ripping people's clothes off without their permission. No matter what any of you say there is a double standard and ripping off someone's clothes like that isn't cool.

In fairness he is the only one who can say whether or not it was cool.

We don't know what was arranged beforehand or what the mood was or any kind of rapport between him and the woman who took his shirt off.

Contrary to what some people seem to believe, most of us don't need to go through some kind of explicit verbal contract before any kind of physical interaction takes place.

sailornaruto39 · 17-04-2014 5:23pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

If he had a problem with being objectified in such a way, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't show up to the event. It also seemed likely to be a stunt.

I still don't see the issue. People are putting more thought into it, than there is.

The objectification is not so much the problem but rather the non consetual act of ripping his clothes off. I'm also speaking assuming it isn't a set up, even though it probably is.

It's bringing out some ugly colors is all. Ppl aren't putting too much though, you just aren't putting enough into it, you think if the tables were turned there wouldn't be more controversy?

sailornaruto39 · 17-04-2014 5:27pm

Standman wrote: »

In fairness he is the only one who can say whether or not it was cool.

We don't know what was arranged beforehand or what the mood was or any kind of rapport between him and the woman who took his shirt off.

Contrary to what some people seem to believe, most of us don't need to go through some kind of explicit verbal contract before any kind of physical interaction takes place.

That's fair, they could be friends, but I'm assuming they aren't and that it wasn't staged.

Did you not see him awkwardly resist at first?

Of these physical interactions you speak of does ripping someone's shirt count? Who does that?

Do you not agree that it's a double standard? Would you give this same indifference with switched genders?

sailornaruto39 · 17-04-2014 5:28pm

Standman wrote: »

In fairness he is the only one who can say whether or not it was cool.

We don't know what was arranged beforehand or what the mood was or any kind of rapport between him and the woman who took his shirt off.

Contrary to what some people seem to believe, most of us don't need to go through some kind of explicit verbal contract before any kind of physical interaction takes place.

That's fair, they could be friends, but I'm assuming they aren't and that it wasn't staged.

Did you not see him awkwardly resist at first?

Of these physical interactions you speak of does ripping someone's shirt count? Who does that?

believe me I'm kinda glad she did it and I know it was all in good fun and that he doesn't have much of a problem with it (though he kinda did). This just reveals an ugly hipocrsy that women have sometimes

Do you not agree that it's a double standard? Would you give this same indifference with switched genders?

Wompa1 · 17-04-2014 6:01pm

I had an interesting experience recently. I went to a John Legend concert.

A few songs in it became pretty obvious that the women there weren't really there for the music per se. He's a great musician and all but I was surrounded by women talking about how hot and sexy he was. Women screaming "I love you John" and all the women screaming at the top of their lungs any time there was a moment without him singing...if he had a pause before hitting a high note or was just playing the piano and not singing they would scream. It really ruined the concert.

He would prompt for us to sing certain parts and it was amazing. I've never witnessed a crowd going from almost everybody screaming to being barely audible. When they were singing it was very quiet. Like most didn't know the song and those who did didn't want to sound bad in front of Jooohhhhhhhn!

Women would reach up towards him if he got close to the edge of the stage. He told a couple of funny stories in between songs but the other stories were lame (And I am a fan) and the women all laughed out loud and oohed and awwwed. We were all told beforehand that there was no intermission. But about 50 minutes in, John went off stage while his small orchestra played instrumental. Almost half of the crowd walked out...I thought it was pretty disrespectful to the musicians. I can't imagine how they felt watching people getting up and going to the restroom while the focus is on them. Luckily most weren't back when John came back to the stage and he just happened to play one of his biggest songs. So nuts to them!

The whole thing was a pretty interesting experience from my perspective. I couldn't see this happening at a female musicians concert. I know Beyonce was grabbed at a show and it made the news...these women were trying to paw over John. I don't know any men who go to a Shakira concert or any other female musicians concert because of their looks and to shout at them on stage. It's an interesting world we live in!

Standman · 17-04-2014 9:30pm

sailornaruto39 wrote: »

That's fair, they could be friends, but I'm assuming they aren't and that it wasn't staged.

Did you not see him awkwardly resist at first?

I didn't see him give any resistance at all actually, nor did he look the slightest bit surprised or embarrassed.

sailornaruto39 wrote: »

Of these physical interactions you speak of does ripping someone's shirt count? Who does that?

Yes depending on the context, ripping someones shirt counts.

sailornaruto39 wrote: »

believe me I'm kinda glad she did it and I know it was all in good fun and that he doesn't have much of a problem with it (though he kinda did). This just reveals an ugly hipocrsy that women have sometimes

Do you not agree that it's a double standard? Would you give this same indifference with switched genders?

Would some people be reacting differently to to this were the genders were reversed? Possibly. I would be just as indifferent.

I don't disagree that double standards exist between men and women. I don't think this is a good example of a double standard however.

These are self obsessed celebrities at a "raunchy" awards show we are talking about here, they love this kind of attention.

17-04-2014 11:37pm

Women have it easy....sexism against men (well, beta men at any rate).....ooh my life is so hard.....groan groan groan.....literally physically sick.

beano345 · 18-04-2014 12:49am

Deleted User wrote: »

Women have it easy....sexism against men (well, beta men at any rate).....ooh my life is so hard.....groan groan groan.....literally physically sick.

You must be "alpha" so :rolleyes:

18-04-2014 1:01am

beano345 wrote: »

You must be "alpha" so :rolleyes:

Nah, not really. :eek:

Well, maybe a bit.

I'm a white well-educated fella with a bit of spending power. I have it easy compared to a hell of a lot of people, especially the vast majority of women. I daresay a lot of the posters on this forum are in exactly the same position - but Jaysus you wouldn't know it to read some of them.

I'd rather light a candle than curse the darkness. And I'd rather count my blessings than find excuses to complain. That's just me, eh?

beano345 · 18-04-2014 1:07am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nah, not really. :eek:

Well, maybe a bit.

I'm a white well-educated fella with a bit of spending power. I have it easy compared to a hell of a lot of people, especially the vast majority of women. I daresay a lot of the posters on this forum are in exactly the same position - but Jaysus you wouldn't know it to read some of them.

I'd rather light a candle than curse the darkness. And I'd rather count my blessings than find excuses to complain. That's just me, eh?

Are you married?

Dublin Red Devil · 18-04-2014 1:27am

They are just playing to their audience. Lets be honest, The crowd are majority teenage girls, High school musical, Twilight fans who see guys like Efron and Robert Patinson etc as idols and sex symbols.

18-04-2014 1:31am

beano345 wrote: »

Are you married?

Why? I didn't even say I was straight. :rolleyes:

Would my opinion be more valid (or less valid) if I was separated or widowed?

EyeSight · 18-04-2014 4:14pm

I think that was prearranged and scripted
I bet he had a new shirt on afterwards

C14N · 19-04-2014 5:46am

sailornaruto39 wrote: »

The objectification is not so much the problem but rather the non consetual act of ripping his clothes off. I'm also speaking assuming it isn't a set up, even though it probably is.

It's bringing out some ugly colors is all. Ppl aren't putting too much though, you just aren't putting enough into it, you think if the tables were turned there wouldn't be more controversy?

I think the point is that it wasn't non-consensual. He could have easily stopped her but instead he went along with it and seemed fairly pleased that it happened. As a man who pretty much makes his living this way, he can handle it pretty well. I'd say if he took offence and snapped at it then there would be more discussion. You do have to bear in mind that men approach this situation differently to women. I think it's fair to say most of us would not mind that blonde wan ripping our own shirts off on stage either.

Wompa1 wrote: »

The whole thing was a pretty interesting experience from my perspective. I couldn't see this happening at a female musicians concert. I know Beyonce was grabbed at a show and it made the news...these women were trying to paw over John. I don't know any men who go to a Shakira concert or any other female musicians concert because of their looks and to shout at them on stage. It's an interesting world we live in!

You're right, men don't really do that kind of stuff, at least not most of us but I think that's partly down to what men find attractive vs what women find attractive. Those women in the crowd think John Legend is so hot not just because he's a good looking guy but because he's a great singer and he can write some sexy songs (I'm sure most in attendance were familiar with at least one or two chunes). With female singers like Beyonce or Shakira though, I think that while men will agree that they are very attractive, the fact that they're good singers and dancers doesn't really elevate them to be particularly special compared to the myriad of other attractive women we can find with a quick internet search.

We also tend to have a sort of "rock star" image of male musicians in that they will sleep around while on tour, picking up regular, hot-girl groupies at every stop along the way. We really don't have this as much for women though, no guy thinks Shakira or whoever is going to invite him back stage to get a little action, even if he is male-model levels of good-looking.

Wompa1 · 19-04-2014 3:03pm

C14N wrote: »

You're right, men don't really do that kind of stuff, at least not most of us but I think that's partly down to what men find attractive vs what women find attractive. Those women in the crowd think John Legend is so hot not just because he's a good looking guy but because he's a great singer and he can write some sexy songs (I'm sure most in attendance were familiar with at least one or two chunes).

It can't just be because he writes good songs. I went to a similar musicians concert, a guy called Ben Folds. The women at that gig were completely different, no screaming and trying to paw at him. He writes love songs too....but he looks like a troll. I wouldn't even mind if they were admiring and attracted by Johns talent, but me thinks without his looks there would be no screaming and pawing. And because of that, I would think more a long the lines of somebody like Shakira come out on stage singing and doing her schtick while guys are shouting at her and trying to grab her. It would be seen as pretty sleazy. Male equivalent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uai7M4RpoLU

Dravokivich · 19-04-2014 5:56pm

Honestly dont think the blazin saddles clip is all that relevant as its taking the piss out of cowboys who would have had little contact with women and their over eagerness to get stuck in when one shows up. Particularly when the character they are fawning over is meant to be a terrible burlesque entertainer.

C14N · 19-04-2014 8:24pm

Wompa1 wrote: »

It can't just be because he writes good songs. I went to a similar musicians concert, a guy called Ben Folds. The women at that gig were completely different, no screaming and trying to paw at him. He writes love songs too....but he looks like a troll. I wouldn't even mind if they were admiring and attracted by Johns talent, but me thinks without his looks there would be no screaming and pawing. And because of that, I would think more a long the lines of somebody like Shakira come out on stage singing and doing her schtick while guys are shouting at her and trying to grab her. It would be seen as pretty sleazy. Male equivalent:

Well yeah if he had a face like a bag of spuds then you're right, but as it is he has musical talent and good looks. Women aren't going to turn up in thousands just to see a good looking lad without any special talents any more than they'll turn up to see John Legend if he isn't also handsome and stylish.

I'd say a big part of the difference is the kind of music too, Ben Folds attracts more of an indie/hipster following, he'll get smaller crowds but they'll be stronger fans who listen to music a lot. John Legend is a bit more of a pop star, there'll be plenty of women who'll have a song or two of his on the iPod even though they're not massive fans of his work. It's also worth pointing out that while I wouldn't call Ben Folds a troll, he is over 10 years older and assuming these girls were fairly young, he looks like someone who could be their dad.

As men, we already have outlets for stuff like that. We've got strip clubs and a bottomless pit of internet porn. To most guys, if the good looking girl dancing around that poll can also write deep and meaningful or just catchy songs and sing them well, it's not going to boost their attractiveness much. As a result, most guys will just take that option or stay at home fapping to girls out of their league because paying €60 to coo over Shakira seems like a bad deal.

I do think women in general get more emotionally attached to whatever entertainer they like too, not just for male ones. I know girls who completely worship Beyonce or Pink. I don't know if you've heard of Jenna Marbles but she's got a famous Youtube channel and mostly puts out humorous videos from a female perspective, which means most of her audience are girls. She's also quite a looker by conventional standards. I was at UCD when she was invited as a guest speaker and went to see her and girls went absolutely mental about it. I'd say the crowd was about 90% girls, many of whom were really freaking out about being in the same room as her. It was by far the biggest crowd I've seen at any campus event and it was hard to get in unless you were early. I had a friend who was interested in going but saw the crowd and decided "nobody is that hot".

Point is, men don't tend to get emotional about that stuff like women do. At the same time though there aren't as many women who get emotional about stuff like sports so it goes both ways.

Wompa1 · 19-04-2014 8:47pm

C14N wrote: »

Well yeah if he had a face like a bag of spuds then you're right, but as it is he has musical talent and good looks. Women aren't going to turn up in thousands just to see a good looking lad without any special talents any more than they'll turn up to see John Legend if he isn't also handsome and stylish.

I agree regarding the emotion. It's a good point. Though you could argue we get as emotive when watching or participating in competition. Regarding the above. The nightclubs in Galway would routinely have Reality Show nobodies in as guests. The women would come a flockin'! No talent, in fact some of them were known from the show's for how stupid they were.

iptba · 19-04-2014 9:11pm

I've read information on studies that found that females are influenced by who other females find attractive. One could see then that a concert scenario might heighten their attraction for some male if there were other females who are clearly attracted also to him, while the same effect wouldn't occur (or to a lesser extent) with males.

C14N · 19-04-2014 9:13pm

Wompa1 wrote: »

I agree regarding the emotion. It's a good point. Though you could argue we get as emotive when watching or participating in competition. Regarding the above. The nightclubs in Galway would routinely have Reality Show nobodies in as guests. The women would come a flockin'! No talent, in fact some of them were known from the show's for how stupid they were.

That's true, for whatever reason women do seem more interested in stuff like that. I mean if you compare something like women's magazines to men's magazines you see this too. Typically you'd imagine women's magazines to focus more on people, whether it's what they're wearing or gossip surrounding them (in the UK especially they seem to end up with loads of celebrities who are really only famous because their lives are documented this way) whereas men's magazines focus more on stuff. Particularly stuff that you, the man reading it, can take part in like cars, computers, video games, sports, personal fitness etc.

I know I'm speaking in broad strokes here but broad strokes get the fence painted faster.

sailornaruto39 · 19-04-2014 9:25pm

Standman wrote: »

I didn't see him give any resistance at all actually, nor did he look the slightest bit surprised or embarrassed.

Yes depending on the context, ripping someones shirt counts.

Would some people be reacting differently to to this were the genders were reversed? Possibly. I would be just as indifferent.

I don't disagree that double standards exist between men and women. I don't think this is a good example of a double standard however.

These are self obsessed celebrities at a "raunchy" awards show we are talking about here, they love this kind of attention.

If you didn't see him resist a little then you aren't looking close enough.

Like I said the incident isn't so much the problem, but the justifications of it happening.

If the roles were reversed the reaction Would be different

sailornaruto39 · 19-04-2014 9:30pm

C14N wrote: »

I think the point is that it wasn't non-consensual. He could have easily stopped her but instead he went along with it and seemed fairly pleased that it happened. As a man who pretty much makes his living this way, he can handle it pretty well. I'd say if he took offence and snapped at it then there would be more discussion. You do have to bear in mind that men approach this situation differently to women. I think it's fair to say most of us would not mind that blonde wan ripping our own shirts off on stage either.

But it wasn't consensual, and just because he gave in doesn't make it less non consensual. It's like if someone forces them self on you after implying "no" but then you give in and go with it.

He was just being a good sport about it, because if he complained he'd be called a pussy. And what does it matter that most men would like it? That's just generalizing. Just because some, most even like it doesn't make it a valid reason to say just do it.

sailornaruto39 · 19-04-2014 9:36pm

C14N wrote: »

I think the point is that it wasn't non-consensual. He could have easily stopped her but instead he went along with it and seemed fairly pleased that it happened. As a man who pretty much makes his living this way, he can handle it pretty well. I'd say if he took offence and snapped at it then there would be more discussion. You do have to bear in mind that men approach this situation differently to women. I think it's fair to say most of us would not mind that blonde wan ripping our own shirts off on stage either.

But it wasn't consensual, and just because he gave in doesn't make it less non consensual. It's like if someone forces them self on you after implying "no" but then you give in and go with it.

He was just being a good sport about it, because if he complained he'd be called a pussy or have his sexuality questioned as men often do when they resists sexual advances from pretty women. And what does it matter that most men would like it? That's just generalizing. Just because some, most even like it doesn't make it a valid reason to say just do it.

C14N · 20-04-2014 2:27am

sailornaruto39 wrote: »

But it wasn't consensual, and just because he gave in doesn't make it less non consensual. It's like if someone forces them self on you after implying "no" but then you give in and go with it.

He was just being a good sport about it, because if he complained he'd be called a pussy or have his sexuality questioned as men often do when they resists sexual advances from pretty women. And what does it matter that most men would like it? That's just generalizing. Just because some, most even like it doesn't make it a valid reason to say just do it.

He didn't "give in" because he made no motion to get her to stop. There was no "no", there was no "come on don't do that", he was just happy and went along with it. All she did was open the front of his shirt, he did most of the work and actually took it off. If you're really comparing this to sexual assault, it would be a bizarre sort of situation where the victim starts taking it further than the aggressor.

Maybe some people would have called him a pussy, I doubt Zac Effron cares because he's relentlessly mocked as a pretty boy anyway. I'm not sure what instances you're referring to of "often" having their sexuality questioned when resisting a pretty woman.

It matters that most men like it because most men watching it think "lucky Zac Efron, I wouldn't mind that happening to me". Hence they aren't going to complain about it. Even if the roles were switched, it would cause a lot more controversy because a lot of women would think "how awful for her, I wouldn't want that happening to me", although even then there would probably be a large group of girls taking the opposite stance and saying they'd like Zac Efron to rip their shirts off. Perhaps if she was older and/or physically larger than him there might be more controversy about it.

sailornaruto39 · 20-04-2014 3:45am

C14N wrote: »

He didn't "give in" because he made no motion to get her to stop. There was no "no", there was no "come on don't do that", he was just happy and went along with it. All she did was open the front of his shirt, he did most of the work and actually took it off. If you're really comparing this to sexual assault, it would be a bizarre sort of situation where the victim starts taking it further than the aggressor.

Maybe some people would have called him a pussy, I doubt Zac Effron cares because he's relentlessly mocked as a pretty boy anyway. I'm not sure what instances you're referring to of "often" having their sexuality questioned when resisting a pretty woman.

It matters that most men like it because most men watching it think "lucky Zac Efron, I wouldn't mind that happening to me". Hence they aren't going to complain about it. Even if the roles were switched, it would cause a lot more controversy because a lot of women would think "how awful for her, I wouldn't want that happening to me", although even then there would probably be a large group of girls taking the opposite stance and saying they'd like Zac Efron to rip their shirts off. Perhaps if she was older and/or physically larger than him there might be more controversy about it.

Argumentum ad populum much? If he wasn't uncomfortable with it with all the males who would've been fine matter?

But looking back I guess I did over look into the whole thing. I though about it, if Zac efron tapped my but (though I'm a guy) I wouldn't mind at all nor do I think i'd make such a big deal if the roles were reversed and the female was ok with it getting her shirt ripped off.

My whole problem is the whole media hypocrisy.

As for having for a man getting his sexuality questioned

"A clear factor in cases brought by men is the difficulty society might have believing they would be offended by a come-on. No real man rebuffs sexual attention, goes the thinking, so how can he even be sexually harassed? “It’s sort of a societal taboo. A man’s going to complain because a woman’s hitting on him? What’s wrong with him?” says Alexis McKenna"

C14N wrote: »

You're right, men don't really do that kind of stuff, at least not most of us but I think that's partly down to what men find attractive vs what women find attractive. Those women in the crowd think John Legend is so hot not just because he's a good looking guy but because he's a great singer and he can write some sexy songs (I'm sure most in attendance were familiar with at least one or two chunes).

I barely disagree. Women act savage around any sort of stimuli like that (IE Magic mike, Twilight, Chip N Dales). I don't think music turns them on that much.

As Womp said, most half of the women left when The other band started playing so clearly music doesn't matter that much.

iptba · 05-05-2014 1:24am

A musician talks about how, now and again, a woman in the audience will put her hand on his penis/whatever-word-you-want-to-use when he's on stage (he says this is never welcome)
http://instagram.com/p/nfUvEpRbov/#

(I came across it via this link: http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/24j8r6/male_music_artist_groped_by_female_at_show/)

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller · 05-05-2014 11:47pm

iptba wrote: »

A musician talks about how, now and again, a woman in the audience will put her hand on his penis/whatever-word-you-want-to-use when he's on stage (he says this is never welcome)

Just read a comment on a thread about the Garth Brooks concerts at Croke Park and a woman said she was going to try and grab his arse if he crowd surfed. Think a guy saying similar would be lambasted if he said he would grab Beyonce's arse if she crowd surfed at the O2.

Anyway, with regards to the Zac Efron shirt ripping off shenanigans, he claims it was NOT planned at all.

Very surprised that nobody mentioned the similar Janet Jackson / Justin Timberlake incident, as the storm over that was quite shocking (I think Oprah even had a special on it) yet this incident doesn't seem to have received anything close to the same reaction and yet that was planned and this one wasn't. Not that I think there was much wrong with what Rita Ora did, just the double standard about such things are, as always, quite hard to take.

sailornaruto39 · 06-05-2014 3:04am

How was their nothing wrong with what she did?

amkin25 · 06-05-2014 3:26am

There is a double standard and in this case i think,could be wrong though but i got the impression he didn't want her to at first and then sort of done the whole ripping it off himself to maybe cover his initial hesitation,and seem like he was down with it all when maybe he wasn't at first
But i could be totally wrong and it could have been all planned for all i know.

sailornaruto39 · 06-05-2014 6:39am

amkin25 wrote: »

There is a double standard and in this case i think,could be wrong though but i got the impression he didn't want her to at first and then sort of done the whole ripping it off himself to maybe cover his initial hesitation,and seem like he was down with it all when maybe he wasn't at first
But i could be totally wrong and it could have been all planned for all i know.

I agree that if it wasn't staged that's probably the case, but I don't think eventual consent counts for very much when there isn't initial consent

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller · 06-05-2014 9:50am

sailornaruto39 wrote: »

How was their nothing wrong with what she did?

I never said there was nothing wrong with it.. I said I don't think there was much wrong with it.

That's just a personally view.

My main (and perhaps only) issue with the whole thing is the double standard aspect of things, in that if some male celeb pulled off an actress's blouse at an awards show (someone like Kelly Brook for example) and left her standing there in just her bra, I'd say he would be up on charges before the week was out, with most sections of the media demanding he never work again.

sailornaruto39 · 06-05-2014 2:38pm

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller wrote: »

I never said there was nothing wrong with it.. I said I don't think there was much wrong with it.

That's just a personally view.

My main (and perhaps only) issue with the whole thing is the double standard aspect of things, in that if some male celeb pulled off an actress's blouse at an awards show (someone like Kelly Brook for example) and left her standing there in just her bra, I'd say he would be up on charges before the week was out, with most sections of the media demanding he never work again.

Isn't that kinda the same thing? WHy don't you think there was nothing wrong? WOuld you feel the same with the scneario you just made with reversed roles?

Double standards at MTV awards

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