Water Charges - figures don't add up?

sdanseo · 16-04-2014 2:05am #1

According to RTÉ

The proposed average water charge for a household will be €240 per annum, it is understood.

and

It is also understood that the Government will provide a subvention or funding of in excess of €500m to Irish Water per annum.

and according to the CSO, there are 1,658,243 households in the state, making total projected revenue just shy of €400 million.

What happened to the idea that water charges were to be a money making exercise to satisfy the troika? Is it me or is this not going to lose the taxpayer €102 million a year while simultaneously costing every man, woman and child in the state close to €100 each?

L1011 · 16-04-2014 8:49am

100m as opposed to the existing funding via councils which is more.

Also there will be higher users.

rubberdiddies · 16-04-2014 9:14am

the cynic in me ensures that I am taking these 'low' figures with a complete pinch of salt. After all there is an election coming up.

Victor · 16-04-2014 9:25am

rubberdiddies wrote: »

the cynic in me ensures that I am taking these 'low' figures with a complete pinch of salt. After all there is an election coming up.

And there is a politics forum to discuss such matters. So let's stay on topic

Moderator

I suspect a big problem is RTÉ are (a) guessing and (b) not appreciating that the 'average' household has about 3 people in it, not the "two adults and two children" as is common taken in the media (c) they are failing to take into account that a large chunk of the water will be paid for by businesses, not households.

maestroamado · 16-04-2014 9:29am

Victor wrote: »

And there is a politics forum to discuss such matters. So let's stay on topic

Moderator

I suspect a big problem is RTÉ are (a) guessing and (b) not appreciating that the 'average' household has about 3 people in it, not the "two adults and two children" as is common taken in the media (c) they are failing to take into account that a large chunk of the water will be paid for by businesses, not households.

business already pay for rates... it is unlikely that they will be expected to pay water charges on top of this but I am hoping someone will confirm....

L1011 · 16-04-2014 9:41am

maestroamado wrote: »

business already pay for rates... it is unlikely that they will be expected to pay water charges on top of this but I am hoping someone will confirm....

Businesses have already been paying water charges for donkeys years.

rubberdiddies · 16-04-2014 9:57am

Victor wrote: »

And there is a politics forum to discuss such matters. So let's stay on topic

Moderator

I suspect a big problem is RTÉ are (a) guessing and (b) not appreciating that the 'average' household has about 3 people in it, not the "two adults and two children" as is common taken in the media (c) they are failing to take into account that a large chunk of the water will be paid for by businesses, not households.

sorry, I should have elaborated. My point is that I don't believe those figures and I dont believe there will be a shortfall. The €50 standing charge seems to be much too low an estimate.

a previous business my brother ran was charged €30 per quarter standing charge and €1 water charge (as his premises only had a toilet).

I cant imagine a shortfall will be allowed to happen and presumably the only guaranteed way to increase the income will be to have a higher standing charge. I personally, based on existing business standing charges, don't expect it to be less than €100 per year.

foggy_lad · 16-04-2014 11:53am

Less than a quarter of homes have meters fitted so how are they going to estimate the usage for those without meters? Will there be a fair appeals process if they make a mess as usually happens?

The free allowance is rumoured as being enough water to have a two minute shower and to brush your teeth and flush the toilet a few times a day.

antoobrien · 16-04-2014 12:47pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Less than a quarter of homes have meters fitted so how are they going to estimate the usage for those without meters? Will there be a fair appeals process if they make a mess as usually happens?

The free allowance is rumoured as being enough water to have a two minute shower and to brush your teeth and flush the toilet a few times a day.

The 55,000L free allowance I heard rumoured works out at 150L/day. Galway city council estimate average household use to be approx 500L/day.

maestroamado · 16-04-2014 2:41pm

antoobrien wrote: »

The 55,000L free allowance I heard rumoured works out at 150L/day. Galway city council estimate average household use to be approx 500L/day.

I seen a bill sent to a relative and it stated an allowance of 100L per day... personally I think the standing charge is not fair as part of any service contract if you are paying for the product the supplier pays the upfront cost.

Idbatterim · 17-04-2014 4:20pm

500L per day?! are they all having baths on a daily basis and using old massive cistern w.c?

stezie · 17-04-2014 4:58pm

i wonder why there has been no incentives ( none that i have seen) from the government to entice home owners to install water harvesting systems where possible for the purpose of filling toilets and for gardening, washing the car, etc. surely all thats needed after that is enough water for washing yourself and drinking water.

antoobrien · 18-04-2014 9:54am

Idbatterim wrote: »

500L per day?! are they all having baths on a daily basis and using old massive cistern w.c?

They are the quoted figures, I don't know how realistic they are, but then the city council in question found 10 properties with a combined "usage" of of 341,000L per day, so it's likely that the averages include waste as well as actual use.

L1011 · 18-04-2014 5:46pm

Waste is unmetered and worked out as the same as the input water, so you can half the figures if that is the case.

loyatemu · 19-04-2014 12:01pm

stezie wrote: »

i wonder why there has been no incentives ( none that i have seen) from the government to entice home owners to install water harvesting systems where possible for the purpose of filling toilets and for gardening, washing the car, etc. surely all thats needed after that is enough water for washing yourself and drinking water.

is there any incentive for the govt. or Irish Water to do this? The cost of running the system is largely fixed and they have to recoup this - its not as if they can decommission a few reservoirs and lay off a few thousand staff if everyone installs rainwater harvesting systems. This is why the "free allowance" is a sham - if everyone manages to stay within the allowance, who will pay for the system?

Victor · 19-04-2014 7:40pm

loyatemu wrote: »

if everyone manages to stay within the allowance, who will pay for the system?

(a) The fixed charge element of the bill and (b) the subvention from the Local Government Fund.

Of course, not everyone will stay within the allowance.

L1011 · 19-04-2014 8:54pm

loyatemu wrote: »

if everyone manages to stay within the allowance, who will pay for the system?

If everyone stays within the allowance, the costs will plummet through the floor due to the massive reduction in storage, purification and sewage handling capacity this would represent.

loyatemu · 20-04-2014 8:33pm

MYOB wrote: »

If everyone stays within the allowance, the costs will plummet through the floor due to the massive reduction in storage, purification and sewage handling capacity this would represent.

it would take years for those savings to be realised - the water charge has to cover the costs of current capacity.

the charge has to raise a certain amount of money - whether there is a free allowance or not, we collectively will have to pay that amount.

22-04-2014 3:46am

With regards to the free allowance, back during the big freeze, the mains froze so I was making daily trips to my sister's to fill a bootload of 5litre bottles.

I have lo-flo toilets throughout the house and even with that, 3 people were going through 120 litres a day just on toilets, washing hands and dishes.

That was us being careful with how we used it and there were no showers or washing clothes. Include those and you rapidly eat up that allowance especially if there are 3 or more in the house and you also add water used for consumption and cooking

Based solely on my own personal experience during that cold winter, the vast majority will exceed the allowance

Sam Russell · 01-05-2014 12:50pm

According to Dublin City Council, they produce 540 million litres of water to 1.5 million customers per day. That works out as 360 litres of water per customer. If you allow 40% for leakage, that equates to 216 litres per day.

Also, remember this includes commercial users, so that would bring down the domestic figure further.

Irish water will be billing for water by the tonne, not the litre. [1,000 litres = 1 tonne or 1 cubic metre].

216 litres per day equates to 79 tonnes per year.

Sam Russell · 01-05-2014 8:13pm

I've done some checking.

My house was metered about 6 years ago and in that time I have used 640 cubic meters (assuming the meter was zero when it went in).

That is approx 100 CuM/year. If my use is average (I have to assume something) and the average bill is €240 per year, then the cost per CuM is €2.4. That is €0.24c per litre. Flushing a toilet cost 1c, and having a shower - maybe 10c. If my use is below average (which it probably is) then these numbers would be lower - possibly by 30%. [These numbers are not confirmed by anyone yet].

Boiling a kettle costs about 4c or maybe 5c in electricity and 0.4c in water. (if my sums are right)

In other jurisdictionsthe cost of water is 5 to 10 this price.

A bottle of Ballygowan is about €1 for 500cl.

padrepio · 03-05-2014 11:18pm

standing charge has been abolished - http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/middleincome-families-to-pay-more-for-water-30240829.html

should make for more efficient use of water by consumers rather than the cynical objective to make Irish Water a cash cow

Sam Russell · 04-05-2014 9:56am

Further sums.

I contacted the council (DCC) and I have had meter installed for about 5 years and they measured my consumption as 0.368 CuM/day or 135 CuM/year. This is the actual measurement. They reduced leakage in my area to zero. Quite an achievement. Well done lads.

I was told my use is 'a bit below average' if that helps. So if we assume a years use is 150 CuM and costs €240, that works out as 0.16 c per litre, or 0.12c if the average yearly use is 200 CuM.

With no standing charge, that is not too bad. Cheaper than Ballygowan.

hfallada · 04-05-2014 10:08am

Why are people so opposed to a standing charge? You have it on every utility in Ireland. A standing charge is logically considering the council still have to pump water to your house and maintain the network r regardless if you use water.

Most people are forgetting also a lot of rural houses have wells rather than a pumped council mains

marmurr1916 · 05-05-2014 12:06am

This will be another factor to be taken into account when people are buying or selling houses.

Presumably a standard part of a survey about the condition of the property will in future include a section about its water consumption and whether there are any leaking pipes.

marmurr1916 · 05-05-2014 12:07am

hfallada wrote: »

Why are people so opposed to a standing charge? You have it on every utility in Ireland. A standing charge is logically considering the council still have to pump water to your house and maintain the network r regardless if you use water.

Most people are forgetting also a lot of rural houses have wells rather than a pumped council mains

The standing charge won't be introduced.

There's no free allowance in England.

Every drop of water must be paid for.

Cookie_Monster · 06-05-2014 5:31am

marmurr1916 wrote: »

The standing charge won't be introduced.

no, they've settled for a load of ridiculous exemption instead, such as a certain amount per child.

NSAman · 06-05-2014 6:37am

hfallada wrote: »

Why are people so opposed to a standing charge? You have it on every utility in Ireland. A standing charge is logically considering the council still have to pump water to your house and maintain the network r regardless if you use water.

Most people are forgetting also a lot of rural houses have wells rather than a pumped council mains

From my own perspective, the standing charge is a complete rip off. 30Euro a quarter (business rates) and water allowance that was never EVER used up. Simply put the standing charge is a cash cow with no incentive to save water at all.

At one stage I even got charged a bill for 1000 euro and despite the fact I proved that I was not running a waterpark they refused to believe me. Finally they admitted (the council) that a mistake had been made in the billing, after threatening me with court action.

Sam Russell · 06-05-2014 2:26pm

If the average bill is decided, then that is fixed. With a free allowance per household, the cost per CuM (tonne) goes up. With a fixed charge before water is charged for, brings down the cost per CuM. We are talking about a difference of €1 to €2 per CuM. With the higher figure, a toilet flush will cost 9l of water or €00.18c. and a 'quick' shower, 6c. (30l).

However, the soap costs more than the water for a washing machine or dishwasher, the electricity and tea will cost more than the water for a cup of tea.

We need to get a sense of proportion.

Call me Al · 06-05-2014 3:04pm

How are they working this out in the context of people with their own septic tank system, who are not using public sewage schemes but who are using a water mains system and have a water meter? Is there a separate charge for public sewage? How do they differentiate between those households in terms of their bills?

padrepio · 06-05-2014 10:49pm

hfallada wrote: »

Why are people so opposed to a standing charge? You have it on every utility in Ireland. A standing charge is logically considering the council still have to pump water to your house and maintain the network r regardless if you use water.

Most people are forgetting also a lot of rural houses have wells rather than a pumped council mains

the majority of utility providers in Ireland are seeking to make a profit though.

Irish Water in theory anyway is seeking to provide safe water services to all Irish citizens at the lowest possible cost per litre

however, the bean counters are aiming to get 500m euro back from Irish Water so abolishing the standing charge, i.e. a guaranteed revenue stream, regardless of consumption could put this at risk

The cynic in me is thinking this was always the "good news" plan, the state will try to increase the cost per litre instead to cover the charge if they are short. Likely that in the first couple of years people wont change their water consumption too much but will when they can start seeing the bills decreasing.

As others have said mains water shouldnt be used for washing your car so hopefully industry will start offering more of these water recycling solutions for people.

While many use wells in rural areas, the quality of groundwater in Ireland is incredibly poor. The EU having been fining the state on this for a few years, they are pushing for septic tank regulation big time - http://www.thejournal.ie/septic-tank-inspections-miss-deadline-daily-fine-epa-788562-Feb2013/.

Suspect when Irish Water is up and going, the days of using a local well will be made very difficult thus closing off this debate.

In the lesser of two evils argument, the getting rid of the standing charge is preferable imo.

Victor · 07-05-2014 12:18am

Call me Al wrote: »

How are they working this out in the context of people with their own septic tank system, who are not using public sewage schemes but who are using a water mains system and have a water meter? Is there a separate charge for public sewage? How do they differentiate between those households in terms of their bills?

You should expect a reduction of perhaps 40-60% in your bill. However, you will still need to pay for inspections and periodic cleaning.

antoobrien · 07-05-2014 10:02am

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/households-facing-240-water-charge-under-coalition-plan-30250408.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/turning-on-the-tap-tax-what-the-water-charges-will-mean-for-you-1.1785641

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/households-face-average-water-bill-of-240-a-year-1.1785404

Phil gave the obligatory interview on the six-one news last night, these are the figures he mentioned:

The average usage per person is 78,000L per year (which works out 30L/day higher than anything I've seen)
30,000L/y free allowance to households
38,000L/y extra allowance for each child under 18

Also from the articles:
No standing charge for Primary residences, the regulator may decide to apply one to holiday/second homes (presumably not rental properties)
Certain low income groups to get €100 towards water bills
"people with an illness requiring high water usage will have their bills capped" - this could be open to abuse.
€200m fund for a "free first fix" scheme for leaks
The meter installation programme is due to cover with 80pc of homes covered by the end of 2015 "and virtually all done by mid-2016".
"Irish Water will also have to take into account poor quality of services – such as where "boil-water" warnings have to be applied."

The final pricing structure will not be known until August, billing starts in October with the first bill due in January (that sucks, money is tight enough in January as it is).

Edit: Found the press release on the department website - http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/Water/WaterServices/News/MainBody,37946,en.htm

Victor · 07-05-2014 10:55am

antoobrien wrote: »

The final pricing structure will not be known until August, billing starts in October with the first bill due in January (that sucks, money is tight enough in January as it is).

Save up for the next 7 months?

Sam Russell · 07-05-2014 2:15pm

Well, well, well.

If there is no standing charge, and the average bill is still €240, then it follows that the cost per CuM will be higher.

If there is a 'free' allowance, and the average bill is €240, then the cost per CuM will be higher.

If children are given a 'free' allowance, and the average bill is €240, then the cost per CuM will be higher.

As a consequence, the cost per CuM will climb from €1 per CuM to €2 per CuM. This will have a significant effect on consumption, for those who have a metered supply.

If I were doing this, I would have a standard charge for the first year of €25 per quarter, with water usage shown at €0 per CuM, but a note saying that next year the charge will be €xxx for that consumption. I would also have a minimum charge for usage below a certain level.

Victor · 07-05-2014 2:24pm

I think they are making tariff structure a little bit too complicated. It will be interesting to find out how they define "household" for the purpose of the free allowance - it would be better to allocate it per adult.

Will they be collecting PPSNs to determine that free allowances aren't being abused?

padrepio · 07-05-2014 11:15pm

antoobrien wrote: »

Also from the articles:
No standing charge for Primary residences, the regulator may decide to apply one to holiday/second homes (presumably not rental properties)
Certain low income groups to get €100 towards water bills
"people with an illness requiring high water usage will have their bills capped" - this could be open to abuse.
€200m fund for a "free first fix" scheme for leaks
The meter installation programme is due to cover with 80pc of homes covered by the end of 2015 "and virtually all done by mid-2016".
"Irish Water will also have to take into account poor quality of services – such as where "boil-water" warnings have to be applied."

Its these unanswered questions that do the govt no favour here, then need to be transparent here with such a transformation. Citizens of this country dont like dripfed information and political kite flying. Might be just the nature of the beast in govt projects. These unanswered questions are fairly basis stuff to get right from the project outset but when decisions become politicised then I fear for the worst

Re standing charge for non PPR(principal primary residence), good idea imo and like the property tax is another reason for people not to hold onto multiple properties for the sake of it.

Low income groups, was always going to be discounted, but should also be efficient in their water consumption. A lot of self employed people are deemed low income for tax purposes but that may not be the case in reality.

Illness/Disability - wide open to abuse bit like its welfare counterpart

Meter installation - instead of handing the keys out to Siteserv surely incentives should be put in for people to put them in themselves, get Irish Water out to QA the installation and put an incentive in for the DIY approach. Might get the rollout happening a lot faster.

Poor Quality of Service - This is where the Consumer association should be all over, people should not be paying for unsafe services. So in the case of boil notices, no way should people be paying Irish Water for that. Have Irish Water made available SLA's that they must abide by? If Irish Water breach their SLA's then citizens cannot be expected to pay. I know the counterargument from Irish Water is that they are being handed over a decrepit infrastructure but imo thats not good enough.

Still think the initiative is more positive than negative to be honest

antoobrien · 08-05-2014 9:23am

padrepio wrote: »

Its these unanswered questions that do the govt no favour here, then need to be transparent here with such a transformation. Citizens of this country dont like dripfed information and political kite flying.

In this case there's no helping it because the prices haven't been set. Then the question is which do you want complete information later or the headline bits now?

Lets call a spade a spade, the information provided in the press release is good enough for most of the country as it gives them a rough idea of what it will cost.

padrepio wrote: »

Re standing charge for non PPR(principal primary residence), good idea imo and like the property tax is another reason for people not to hold onto multiple properties for the sake of it.

Nope, not multiple properties like the PPR. From the press release

There will be no standing charge for domestic customers for social and environmental reasons (a minimum charge may be applied to properties that are not permanently occupied - e.g. holiday homes);

There's no incentive to get rid of investment properties as the costs will be carried by the occupants.

padrepio wrote: »

Illness/Disability - wide open to abuse bit like its welfare counterpart

Charges to be capped for people with high water usage due to certain medical conditions (these conditions to be determined in consultation with the Minister for Health

Get your lobbying in now for Consumptusbeeritis.

padrepio wrote: »

Meter installation - instead of handing the keys out to Siteserv surely incentives should be put in for people to put them in themselves, get Irish Water out to QA the installation and put an incentive in for the DIY approach. Might get the rollout happening a lot faster.

And give a boost to local business.

padrepio wrote: »

Poor Quality of Service - This is where the Consumer association should be all over, people should not be paying for unsafe services. So in the case of boil notices, no way should people be paying Irish Water for that. Have Irish Water made available SLA's that they must abide by? If Irish Water breach their SLA's then citizens cannot be expected to pay.

The boil water notices and poorly performing water schemes (group or council) are the first things I'd go after. The trick is to get past the propaganda that most councils have been putting out to see who is really losing water.

marmurr1916 · 10-05-2014 12:58am

If average annual consumption per person is 78,000 litres, and the free allowance is 30,000 litres, with a price of €0.02 per litre, the average cost per person will be €96.00 per year.

Sam Russell · 10-05-2014 10:21am

The consumption in our house (2 people) is 65 cum per person (as measured over 5 years by meter).

Hope that helps.

I think the annual 30 cum allowance is per billing.

Ogham · 12-05-2014 1:51pm

Some useful worked out figures here for water charges - http://www.moneyguideireland.com/metered-water-charges-how-much-will-they-be.html

Water Charges - figures don't add up?

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