Is making history optional for the JC a good idea?

14-04-2014 11:26AM #1

Article in the IT today about making history for the JC optional?

What do you think about making history optional for the Junior cert? A good idea or not?

I think it's absolute madness to be honest. I think that a good understanding of history is of vital importance to a well functioning democracy. It allows citizens to learn from the past so as to make informed decisions about the future and prevent mistakes from re-occurring. It also gives some sense of how far we've advanced as humans over the last few thousand years and how much further we still have to go. I'd could probably even be persuaded that it should be mandatory for the LC as well never mind the JC.

EDIT: That poll should say history obviously, not Irish. Can't seem to amend it now so if a Mod could, that'd be great.

SEPT 23 1989 · 14-04-2014 11:31AM

I would drop Irish quicker than I would History

AnonoBoy · 14-04-2014 11:31AM

I failed Leaving Cert history and was doomed to repeat it.

DavyD_83 · 14-04-2014 11:33AM

My knowledge of History and Geography is extremely limited as it is; without JC in both, I doubt I'd have even a basic understanding.
JC is about giving people a broad basic level of knowledge; can't see any justification for narrowing it to be honest

Lapin · 14-04-2014 11:33AM

Crazy decision.

If we don't understand the past, how can we prepare for the future.

History is more important than Irish and Religion in schools.

Make them optional instead.

Dravokivich · 14-04-2014 11:37AM

I think the idea of "failing to learn from past mistakes," should be left to the military and civil engineers/planners. It has no bearing on day to day life for someone who's not involved in such activities.

That said, as fare as I can recollect JC history is just more detailed than the stuff you would have done in Primary School, without the folklore. So I can see where the question of making it optional comes from.

kowloon · 14-04-2014 11:42AM

If they can insist on keeping Irish as it's 'part of our culture' then History has as good a case, if not stronger.

14-04-2014 11:43AM

Dravokivich wrote: »

I think the idea of "failing to learn from past mistakes," should be left to the military and civil engineers/planners. It has no bearing on day to day life for someone who's not involved in such activities.

That said, as fare as I can recollect JC history is just more detailed than the stuff you would have done in Primary School, without the folklore. So I can see where the question of making it optional comes from.

It has a bearing on how well informed an electorate is and gives people ability to make more informed decisions about who to vote for.

Oakboy · 14-04-2014 11:44AM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I would drop Irish quicker than I would History

That didn't take long :rolleyes:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-04-2014 11:44AM

Bason on thi section from the article, I'd support the idea, on the basis that the replacements would be far more relevant.

What is it about Labour and wanting to downgrade history from a core subject? In the mid-1990s, Labour Minister for Education Niamh Bhreathnach proposed removing history and geography as core subjects, but introduced two new obligatory ones – civic, social and political education, and social, personal and health education.

The problem is that we focus in so much on history and the past that we forget to teach students how to handle the present and the now.

There was a thread recently about a rise in suicides in Ireland and a lot of it is down to study pressures and being unable to deal with teenage angst - on this basis I think that Bhreathnach's ideas were spot on.

The other problem I have with history is that it teaches very little. We just tell people what happaned and leave it at that. Kids don't learn it - the memorise it in order to pass an exam.

Based on that, what is more important? Filling their heads with facts that arent' relevant to them or actually giving them the tools to handle a modern and everchangign society and teaching them how to use them?

Dravokivich · 14-04-2014 11:46AM

gaffer91 wrote: »

It has a bearing on how well informed an electorate is and gives people ability to make more informed decisions about who to vote for.

There is CSPE for Politics separate to it. To be honest, the only political tones in JC history that I understood was Anti UK Tory 18th-19th Century and in favour of Anti Treaty Sinn Fein.

Oakboy · 14-04-2014 11:46AM

Lapin wrote: »

Crazy decision.

If we don't understand the past, how can we prepare for the future.

History is more important than Irish and Religion in schools.

Make them optional instead.

haha you don't see the irony of this post? The Irish language and of course Religion too being fite fuaite with our history

cson · 14-04-2014 11:47AM

Loved History in school. Sickened I couldn't get it for LC, couldn't get a class for it. In hindsight should have just done it myself.

That being said; it needs to go more towards the contemplative/insight type of learning rather than rote. JC is very much rote.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-04-2014 11:47AM

Oakboy wrote: »

haha you don't see the irony of this post? The Irish language and of course Religion too being fite fuaite with our history

I'd argue that all three - religion, irish and history - are more designed to impose a culture and identity onto someone rather than actually letting it develop natrually.

robman60 · 14-04-2014 11:51AM

Have a choice between history and geography maybe.

Permabear · 14-04-2014 11:53AM

This post has been deleted.

Duggy747 · 14-04-2014 11:53AM

They should introduce Futurism, where they just watch sci-fi stuff and have to do an exam on Terminator 2.

Question 1a: The Terminator now knows why John cries, but understands it is something that it can never do.

Discuss.

Amirani · 14-04-2014 11:54AM

Geography is far less useful.

History at primary school level is a joke by the way. I seem to remember the syllabus being entirely focussed on Egyptians/Greeks/Romans. Nothing on more more recent and significant stuff like the Reformation or the Revolutionary era.

LoveLamps · 14-04-2014 11:54AM

It already is optional?? I didn't do History for my JC back in 2012

alleystar · 14-04-2014 11:54AM

History is simpe for the JC, if you're anyway clued in you'll work out the pattern. It would be a shame if they dropped it since it's easily one of the most enjoyable subjects in the junior cert.

14-04-2014 11:56AM

Dravokivich wrote: »

There is CSPE for Politics separate to it. To be honest, the only political tones in JC history that I understood was Anti UK Tory 18th-19th Century and in favour of Anti Treaty Sinn Fein.

My recollection of CSPE is that it was a load of bollox. In fairness I will say that as I remember it, LC history focused to a far greater extent on the causes and effects of significant historical events than the JC, which was more focused on simply documenting the events.

Still though, I think understanding things like the fact that modern democracy is a relatively new (and often vulnerable) concept, how social conservatives are on the wrong side of history on practically ever social issue, how extreme nationalism is a bad thing (or nationalism in general really), and so on, are important things for an electorate to be aware of.

Alf. A. Male · 14-04-2014 11:58AM

No way. The grumpy old white men controlling the world would love us to be dumber and forget how we got to the point where we are wage-slaves with a veneer of democracy. Drop history and we give them even more control over our future.

Crumpets · 14-04-2014 12:02PM

I thought it already was optional for JC? It was compulsory in my school alright but in the lads' school next door they could do whatever 5 or 6 subjects they wanted after Maths, Irish and English.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-04-2014 12:04PM

gaffer91 wrote: »

My recollection of CSPE is that it was a load of bollox. In fairness I will say that as I remember it, LC history focused to a far greater extent on the causes and effects of significant historical events than the JC, which was more focused on simply documenting the events.

Still though, I think understanding things like the fact that modern democracy is a relatively new (and often vulnerable) concept, how social conservatives are on the wrong side of history on practically ever social issue, how extreme nationalism is a bad thing (or nationalism in general really), and so on, are important things for an electorate to be aware of.

I know, but if it wastaught well it would be a much better idea.

Alf. A. Male wrote: »

No way. The grumpy old white men controlling the world would love us to be dumber and forget how we got to the point where we are wage-slaves with a veneer of democracy. Drop history and we give them even more control over our future.

I think you'll find that the grumpy old men keep us dumber by NOT letting us learn things that would be more useful about understanding the world today. How do we know that what kids are taught is even accurate?

Lapin · 14-04-2014 12:05PM

Oakboy wrote: »

haha you don't see the irony of this post? The Irish language and of course Religion too being fite fuaite with our history

I agree that Irish and Religion are interwoven in our history, but this isn't reflected in their status as subjects on the cirriculum.

History as a subject would address the roles played by the language and religion in our past.

Notorious97 · 14-04-2014 12:06PM

Loved history in school, especially irish history, but i also am always interested in the history of other nations etc, i just find it all really interesting.

I dont think for junior cert any of them should be optional, they can already choose for leaving cert so they can drop it then if they like, just my opinion

Cantremember · 14-04-2014 12:14PM

We need a poll.

14-04-2014 12:16PM

Notorious97 wrote: »

Loved history in school, especially irish history, but i also am always interested in the history of other nations etc, i just find it all really interesting.

I dont think for junior cert any of them should be optional, they can already choose for leaving cert so they can drop it then if they like, just my opinion

I certainly think that International history is very important, both for its own sake and as a comparative tool to show how backward we were in this country for so long, and still are to a certain extent, because of things such as the oppressive influence of the catholic church and general social conservatism of Irish society.

14-04-2014 12:18PM

Cantremember wrote: »

We need a poll.

Good idea. Done.

Davarus Walrus · 14-04-2014 12:19PM

I loved History in school, but looking back the syllabus was all a bit covered in the dark green cloak of Irish nationalism. And in the glory of dying for your country.

conorhal · 14-04-2014 12:24PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Bason on thi section from the article, I'd support the idea, on the basis that the replacements would be far more relevant.

"What is it about Labour and wanting to downgrade history from a core subject? In the mid-1990s, Labour Minister for Education Niamh Bhreathnach proposed removing history and geography as core subjects, but introduced two new obligatory ones – civic, social and political education, and social, personal and health education."

The problem is that we focus in so much on history and the past that we forget to teach students how to handle the present and the now.

There was a thread recently about a rise in suicides in Ireland and a lot of it is down to study pressures and being unable to deal with teenage angst - on this basis I think that Bhreathnach's ideas were spot on.

The other problem I have with history is that it teaches very little. We just tell people what happaned and leave it at that. Kids don't learn it - the memorise it in order to pass an exam.

Based on that, what is more important? Filling their heads with facts that arent' relevant to them or actually giving them the tools to handle a modern and everchangign society and teaching them how to use them?

Ah Niamh Bhreathnach, another middle class cultural marxist that's eager to ensure we're indoctrinated with their future and denied the context of a past that might cause some to question the direction such odious creatures wish to usher us towards.

Is making history optional for the JC a good idea?

Should Irish be optional for the JC? 20 votes

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