We have a problem with suicide in Ireland

Muise... · 12-04-2014 01:04PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Oh I know. A pet hate of mine is the way people don't think that financial hardship is responsible for suicide. Of course it is. That and the fact that some people have no sympathy for those going through hardship. I represent people in college struggling to get by. Many from backgrounds of abuse and foster homes and obviously they struggle to pay fees and the response they get from some students is "If you can't afford fees you shouldn't be in college" (look to the UCD forum for that opinion).

The lack of empathy towards others in these circumstance are in part to blame imho.

bit simplistic, no?

Financial hardship can't be a lone factor. Add emotional distress + lack of coping strategies + absence of supports + underlying mental illness + the unknowable feelings of other human beings.

Legs.Eleven · 12-04-2014 01:06PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Ew. :mad:
I'm finding people becoming less compassionate overall. Young people, particularly students, were associated with fighting for the downtrodden.
Now there's this "Cool to be right-wing and hard" shyte in fashion. I know you get gobshytery from people who are "cause"-addicted, but at least they give a sh1t about others, however naive it might be at times.

And problems discounted as "First World Problems when they could be very real to that person or any kind of compassion shown towards others as being "PC" along with the "man up" or "grow a pair" (not just directed at men) bollocks.

Suicide rates among young people here in Spain are almost non-existent and I often wonder does the fact that any kind of isolation is frowned upon here and everything is done in a group (to the point of ridiculousness in some cases), family ties are still very strong here and young people don't drink to get pissed. I have no idea but I really do believe these things must be contributing factors.

Stavros Murphy · 12-04-2014 01:09PM

I'll probably be slated for this, but I blame alcohol, to a huge, huge extent. I really do. I don't mean people who are taking their own lives are alcoholics, I just mean that for a short period of time, while they are "down" in life, they turn to having a drink - probably unseen, sitting on their couch watching TV - which crashes them down even further, into a state of mind where the whole visage is utterly bleak and pointless. Not 100% by any means, but a large percentage. Some will say "but teens don't drink". They don't know teens so.

Misty Moon · 12-04-2014 01:09PM

green_screen wrote: »

Until those waiting lists are chopped, the taboo around mental health is eradicated (even my own siblings would call me a freak for being mentally ill and were ashamed of me), and more education on mental health is given, we'll continue to have massive problems with suicide.

Agree entirely with this.

My sister killed herself last year. The thing that really stood out to me, even though you would hear in the Irish papers about there being an epidemic of suicides, was how true that really seems to be. I live in Germany now and of all the people I told here, only one other mentioned knowing someone who had committed suicide. Of all the people I spoke to in Ireland, both during the time I was back for the funeral and since, not one hasn't had a story, or two or three or four, about someone they know who has committed suicide. So even though you can know that there's a serious problem it's only when you actually talk to people about their experiences that you really realise how heartbreaking it is. One of my other sisters got a phone call from her husband a couple of days after the funeral - his cousin's husband had just been found, same thing.

green_screen wrote: »

We can't save everyone, but we should damn well be trying harder.

Definitely!

mikemac1 · 12-04-2014 01:10PM

bockeys jollocks wrote: »

I suspect some of the people that commit suicide and have mortgage debt are under the impression that their mortgage will be written off and the spouse will get the house. I'm not sure but I have heard that if you have a joint mortgage the burden is passed on and is not wiped off because suicide is a deliberate act.

I must dig out my life insurance policy and see if it's in the T's & C's, I'm curious to see if that's the case. People rarely go through all the legal jargon with a fine tooth comb.

Having read a couple of life assurance policies lately I know a basic and popular plan from Irish Life will not pay out if you die by suicide within one year of starting the policy

After one year they will pay

As said above possibly dying by road accident is a way around this. But then that speculation can be too common also. I see it a lot on journey.ie when they report a single vehicle fatality and the wagging tongues guess it's suicide.

Having spent years working night shift driving while tired is as lethal as driving drunk and if a car crashes on a straight piece if road that's my first reaction anyway

Worksforyou · 12-04-2014 01:13PM

I think a lot of it comes from young peoples attitudes towards eachother. I'm not sure where it comes from but they don't just pick it up off the ground. Being a teenager in Ireland can be a really horrible experience, it could be in other countries aswell I just don't know. It's not only bullying but laughing and ridiculing other teenagers seen as weaker than you is so common.
I overheard a conversation 2 lads had when I was in school over 10 years ago. There was a kid that used to be picked on daily and these two were laughing about it when one said "you know one of these days he's going to kill himself", the other said "I know" and they both burst out laughing. They were about 17 at the time. There's a really nasty streak prevelent amongst so many pupils and some might say it's just kids but they are still kids when they get to college.
It's in this atmosphere that young people would feel unable to talk about feeling down or anything like that, they'd assume they'll be made fun of. I don't know if it's changed but I was told to go to a teacher or your parents if you have a problem, when you're a teenager the chances of you doing this is very slim. As was mentioned earlier, more instant help needs to become available and it needs to be a quality service too.

Polarix · 12-04-2014 01:16PM

Self murder is not a solution to anything. Don't give them the satisfaction.

Femme_Fatale · 12-04-2014 01:18PM

Polarix wrote: »

Self murder is not a solution to anything. Don't give them the satisfaction.

If you're up a few floors in a burning building and there's no option other than to jump out the window to escape the fire, it's not like there's a choice. That's the stage people who commit suicide reach.

Misty Moon · 12-04-2014 01:21PM

Worksforyou wrote: »

I overheard a conversation 2 lads had when I was in school over 10 years ago. There was a kid that used to be picked on daily and these two were laughing about it when one said "you know one of these days he's going to kill himself", the other said "I know" and they both burst out laughing. They were about 17 at the time.

I kind of feel about this the way I feel about the new(-ish) trend of joking about rape. It seems to have become normalised to joke about and I think partly that stems from people, especially younger people, just not understanding the seriousness of the actual act. If either of those two knew someone who really had killed themselves, I wonder if they'd still be joking like that. Perhaps, but I'd like to think at least some of it stems from sheer ignorance of the enormity of the act.

Legs.Eleven · 12-04-2014 01:23PM

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

I'll probably be slated for this, but I blame alcohol, to a huge, huge extent. I really do. I don't mean people who are taking their own lives are alcoholics, I just mean that for a short period of time, while they are "down" in life, they turn to having a drink - probably unseen, sitting on their couch watching TV - which crashes them down even further, into a state of mind where the whole visage is utterly bleak and pointless. Not 100% by any means, but a large percentage. Some will say "but teens don't drink". They don't know teens so.

The countries with the highest suicide rates also have the biggest problems with alcohol. I think it must be a contributing factor.

Cantremember · 12-04-2014 01:24PM

There are as many reasons as there are people: depression, drunkeness, drug abuse, isolation, financial difficulties, identity issues, mental health issues. It's just my view but there is a poisonous yob culture established among young men in their 20's. You have to be macho, smart arse, player type, a user to be part of the gang. It's founded in negativity. Years ago you came across it in the urban poor/ welfare / half working class but it was balanced up by other influences. It seems to have won out and it's feeding into male suicide and violence.

whiskeyman · 12-04-2014 01:24PM

I've my old communion class photo in my folks place.
Looking at that photo sends shivers up my spine:
Out of a class of 27, 7 had lost their lives to suicide by the time we were 30.
Some are lads I didn't really know. One was my best friend in primary school.
I can hear all the stats you can throw at me, but that photo is proof enough to me there's something seriously wrong.

Muise... · 12-04-2014 01:40PM

Cantremember wrote: »

There are as many reasons as there are people: depression, drunkeness, drug abuse, isolation, financial difficulties, identity issues, mental health issues. It's just my view but there is a poisonous yob culture established among young men in their 20's. You have to be macho, smart arse, player type, a user to be part of the gang. It's founded in negativity. Years ago you came across it in the urban poor/ welfare / half working class but it was balanced up by other influences. It seems to have won out and it's feeding into male suicide and violence.

This.

I think it's natural for people to look for something to blame. I don't like it when society as a whole is blamed, because some people are pure gold when it comes to listening and some are tone-deaf bastards. It's the luck of the draw which ones you get to live with, and it can be really difficult - especially for teenagers - to know which is which and to know whom to approach.

I think many people shy away from the distress that can lead to suicide as if it's somehow catching - and it should be recognised how fcuking hard it is to sit up all night listening to someone cry - but it can be down to good intentions too, such as respect for others' privacy and pride, or recognition that they need more expert help than you can provide.

Worse than blaming society, however, is people blaming themselves. We can't catch them all. Extremely painful as it is to know that someone lost all hope, they made that decision and their troubles are over.

catallus · 12-04-2014 01:41PM

I think what's so hard about the question of suicide is that there is no one solid answer. Each person will have their own reasons for wanting to end it.

There is still the attitude of "selfish bastards", the kneejerk reaction of those left behind, powerless and confused in the face of a person they thought they knew doing something incomprehensible. And we can't deny that that anger is justified. The most dreadful thing of all, even apart from the loss of life is the dread and impotent dumbfoundedness of those who are left to mourn the dead.

That said, it is obvious from the posts on here that there is a very real problem with people killing themselves. We have removed the taboo against suicide before we have learned the words we need to talk openly about it: maybe we never will be able to talk about it, because the decision to kill yourself is the most private one of all.

I know this is an anonymous internet forum but I'll openly say that if someone is going to do it, leave a note or something explaining yourself. The cruellest thing for the people left behind is not knowing why.

Femme_Fatale · 12-04-2014 01:43PM

Muise... wrote: »

it should be recognised how fcuking hard it is to sit up all night listening to someone cry

/shudder

Takes me back to staying up all night with a house-mate (diagnosed with bipolar disorder) who had all the tablets laid out on her dressing table and was ready to do it... :-/

That was tough - but at least it was just one night. There are people who are dealing with someone in that way all the time. I know a girl who's dealing with her very mentally ill mother all the time, and she (the girl) is now at the stage of needing help herself.

I believe it's very hard to have someone hospitalised in this country.

Polarix · 12-04-2014 01:43PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

If you're up a few floors in a burning building and there's no option other than to jump out the window to escape the fire, it's not like there's a choice. That's the stage people who commit suicide reach.

I still wouldn't give them the satisfaction

Stavros Murphy · 12-04-2014 01:44PM

Cantremember wrote: »

There are as many reasons as there are people: depression, drunkeness, drug abuse, isolation, financial difficulties, identity issues, mental health issues. It's just my view but there is a poisonous yob culture established among young men in their 20's. You have to be macho, smart arse, player type, a user to be part of the gang. It's founded in negativity. Years ago you came across it in the urban poor/ welfare / half working class but it was balanced up by other influences. It seems to have won out and it's feeding into male suicide and violence.

Ok. But I'll give you an example. I have a neighbour, a good solid lad with two young kids and a nice wife, nice house. His friends dread it when he drinks, even a few pints at the weekend, as the next day he will be on the couch, silent, hoodie up around his head, in his own world of bleakness. The world is dead to him till slowly the effects wear off. He now rarely drinks, but the odd time, he does and wham!

How many more are the same? I know, to a lesser extent, I am the same. I avoid drink like the plague these days, it wrecks my head.

12-04-2014 01:45PM

Polarix wrote: »

I still wouldn't give them the satisfaction

WHO? give who what satisfaction?? Suicide isnt about giving anyone satisfaction.

It really isnt.

Polarix · 12-04-2014 01:46PM

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

I'll probably be slated for this, but I blame alcohol, to a huge, huge extent. I really do. I don't mean people who are taking their own lives are alcoholics, I just mean that for a short period of time, while they are "down" in life, they turn to having a drink - probably unseen, sitting on their couch watching TV - which crashes them down even further, into a state of mind where the whole visage is utterly bleak and pointless. Not 100% by any means, but a large percentage. Some will say "but teens don't drink". They don't know teens so.

The chemical come down from any binge night of alcohol will leave anyone feeling down, never mind what it would do to someone already having problems.

Wibbs · 12-04-2014 01:47PM

qdawg86 wrote: »

This is not based on anything but my own musings but are young people somehow more vulnerable and less emotionally equipped to handle stress or pressure these days ?

Speaking as a middle aged fart, I would say that IMH anyway there are more stresses of a particular kind going on today. There is certainly more exposure to cultural pressures and the online world which can have the vulnerable think they don't match up when comparing say facebook "friends". We're more stimulated, over stimulated I'd say and this is a pressure. A pressure I really didn't feel in my teens.

Adolescence is a time of growth and turmoil in the best of circumstances, that hopefully we all get through with a few cringeworthy episodes along the way. However today such episodes are far more likely to be shared across the community.

I'd also suggest(and it may be a tad controversial) that because there is so much info out there these days that people are more likely to self diagnose, think they suffer from a condition and then end up actually suffering from it. The sense of belonging to a community of fellow sufferers might appeal too and just IMH that could have a more negative than positive impact on what may have started off as an actual temporary case of the "blues/teenage angst". Plus nowadays GPs are more likely to suggest depressive illness and start therapies for it, would add to the self diagnosis. I've seen with my own eyes how quickly a couple of GP's diagnose depressive illness and start people on a course of medications.

In any event I'll say this, I'd not like to be a teenager today.

Or were there just as many suicides but we just never heard about them ? I know in my own extended family there were 2 suicides that were 'covered up' (we were told of a different cause of death at the time by family members).

Certainly there were suicides when I was growing up, there was also depression and anxiety, oft described as "ahh Joe is a bit strange" etc, but not nearly to the degree I'm seeing and hearing about today. Put it another way when suicides occurred they may have been covered up officially, but friends and family usually knew.

In my year at school throughout secondary there were no "suspicious" deaths, or whispers of attempts at suicide. In my later teens I knew of two young women who attempted alright, but these were dramatic "cries for help"(which are serious and were treated as such) but were not even close to serious attempts.

Anorexia, self mutilation like cutting and such? I didn't hear a sniff of any of that until the mid 90's I'd say. I did know one anorexic when I was around 14. Interestingly it was a bloke my age. His was a response to the death of a parent rather than a self image problem and he got treatment over the course of a year and came out the other end healthy.

Mental illness? I knew of a couple of people who had psychotic breaks/schizophrenia alright, but the seemingly widespread depressive type illnesses of today, no. And if they were around and I'm sure they were, they kept it well hidden and seemed to "grow out of it". I say that because those when I think back that may have had a touch of it back then went on to have normal lives since.

bockeys jollocks wrote: »

It's not just young students killing themselves, I know of one family that couldn't cope with loosing their jobs. Their life crumbled around them. The father and husband took his own life, then the wife did 6 months later. The kids now have no parents.

Terribly sad alright.

Just since Xmas I know of two such cases where the fathers took their own lives(both mid thirties with young families) and the financial burden was, or seemed to be the reason(both were under terrible pressure from banks etc).

As for mental health resources? Well back in the day it was significantly less available than today. The newer drug therapies hadn't even come to market(SSRI's and the like), yet there was less need for it it seems. Maybe religion took it's place for many? Information on mental health? There is vastly more of that available today. You'd nearly have to try hard to avoid talk of it these days. Again even with this the stats appear to be going up not down. I dunno, it's a real bloody tragedy, but maybe society is missing other avenues to help knock these stats back, or is it something that our culture will have to evlove to cope with in the future?

Polarix · 12-04-2014 01:48PM

Jake1 wrote: »

WHO? give who what satisfaction?? Suicide isnt about giving anyone satisfaction.

It really isnt.

Exactly why not to give it to them as a side prize, it's no solution.

Muise... · 12-04-2014 01:56PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

/shudder

Takes me back to staying up all night with a house-mate (diagnosed with bipolar disorder) who had all the tablets laid out on her dressing table and was ready to do it... :-/

That was tough - but at least it was just one night. There are people who are dealing with someone in that way all the time. I know a girl who's dealing with her very mentally ill mother all the time, and she (the girl) is now at the stage of needing help herself.
I believe it's very hard to have someone hospitalised in this country.

Horrible, horrible experience, but if it ever arises again, you'll be better able to deal with it.

Helpers definitely need help. It's not just a patient-doctor/counsellor relationship, it's a whole network. My older sister managed to get a family member hospitalised in an emergency, but I don't know what Act or policy it was under. Will look it up because it might be of some use on this thread to list services and options.

Edit: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/mental_health/admission_to_a_psychiatric_hospital.html

...assuming there are beds available.

bockeys jollocks · 12-04-2014 01:58PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Terribly sad alright. Just since Xmas I know of two such cases where the fathers took their own lives(both mid thirties with young families) and the financial burden was, or seemed to be the reason(both were under terrible pressure from banks etc).

Precisely why I believe the government don't want the media reporting it, I know, you know and many others know just in this thread alone, people that have taken their lives because of the financial meltdown. I had a work colleague do the very same, jumped off the cliffs of moher.

As for the teenagers, I wouldn't like to be growing up now, the bullying doesn't stay in the schoolyard anymore. With smart phones and facebook it follows you home, it's there when you're in bed by yourself and it never goes away.

alleystar · 12-04-2014 01:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I am bipolar, I have been on the verge of suicide many times. Luckily there is something that stops me from going through with it. Can't say that will always be the case.
I can totally understand why some one would go through with it. You are in a dark place and nothing takes precedent over your feelings at the time.
The level of support for people who have feelings of suicide in Ireland is appalling. Unless you go private, impossible to get counselling, psychotherapy psychiatric care at the time you need it. Pieta house should be funded by government and underserved expanded.
Its all well and good, saying talk to family and friends buttons perfectly honest, when you are in that dark place you want to talk to a stranger more than a friend.
Suicide is severely under reported in Ireland.

This post says everything really.

It's not just Ireland, the UK is has a big problem with suicide too.

I read an article on Broadsheet a few months ago - the journalist hit the nail on the head. It's in relation to the message Donal Walsh put out in the media too. Sad and all as his story was, it wasn't right to give someone a platform who told people who were suicidal "to cop on". Fair play to him, he did get people in Ireland talking about depression but that message was just plain wrong.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/01/07/staying-alive-2/

Same goes for Conor Cusack's blog post, brilliant piece of writing.

Pieta house, great people, saved my sister from suicide. Will be forever grateful to them. Yes, they should be funded by the government, I would agree 100% with that.

J_E · 12-04-2014 02:00PM

It's hard to find yourself as a young person in the country today. I mean, seriously hard. I dropped out of college after my first year and it felt like my world was going to end.

El Horseboxo · 12-04-2014 02:00PM

It seems such a taboo issue in Ireland. I don't think Irish people are emotionally expensive enough. It's all bottled up. Compared to here in the US the difference is startling. I've had friends practically cry on my shoulder over their troubles. It helps so much to be able talk about things. Not talking credit as some savior but I think if they were some of my Irish friends they never would have expressed their true thoughts emotionally and things could have turned out a lot differently.

When someone commits suicide here it's talked about. And it primarily focuses on the pain of those left behind. I think that can act as a slight deterrent for anyone contemplating it. Just to get them thinking about family and how it affects others.

One thing I heard recently from a friend on Facebook who works for Irish rail as a train driver. He was out of work and getting counselling as someone threw themselves in front of his train. We got talking and he said it's quite common and not unusual for drivers to be out at counselling over hitting someone that jumped in front of their train. I keep up with Irish news daily and never see anything like that mentioned.

Polarix · 12-04-2014 02:13PM

Jake1 wrote: »

WHO? give who what satisfaction?? Suicide isnt about giving anyone satisfaction.

It really isnt.

I know some people who privatately boasted of their satisfaction from one, people who contributed to it with their bullying, I'm not saying all suicide is a result of bullying, but bullying of all types is endemic in all sections of irish society and does contribute to many suicides so lay off. I don't think that problem or it's contribution should be whitewashed and swept under the carpet, we as a society / community have a part to play. Or we could do a thatcher and say there is no real society or community, maybe she was right.

average hero · 12-04-2014 02:31PM

It's a serious issue alright. I imagine that financial stress forms a huge part of it. Ireland is still a very communal and local nation and we all love to keep up with the Jones as much as we can - you only need to think of the 'property ladder' and decking craze to illustrate that. When financial strains hit you, it's not simply security and your shelter that's affected, it is possible that your whole esteem and identity can be shattered. In a parochial/community driven country such as Ireland, that can be particularly devastating. This doesn't mean it's anyone's fault though.

As a solution, I can only hope that better services in the health sector are implemented and mental health resources are improved for all of the people of Ireland.

Harold Weiss · 12-04-2014 02:32PM

There's no support for people that want to kill themselves and there's also shame among men that need help.

GP will prescribe medications but that's not a solution, it should only be part of an overall programme (which doesn't exist)

Most unemployed people can't afford to pay for private therapy and waiting lists can sometimes be more than 6 months.

Government doesn't care.

EDIT: I'd also add that men who seek out help for mental problems are perceived as being weak by the rest of society in addition to less sympathy because men are supposed to be strong and emotionless...

Polarix · 12-04-2014 02:36PM

Harold Weiss wrote: »

There's no support for people that want to kill themselves.

GP will prescribe medications but that's not a solution, it should only be part of an overall programme (which doesn't exist)

Exactly in Belgium and Scandinavia they at least provide euthanasia.

We have a problem with suicide in Ireland

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