Being excluded from the library for being unable to pay fees

steddyeddy · 09-03-2014 04:40PM #1

I'm a PhD student so this doesn't apply to me but I know many people who cannot (as opposed to will not pay) that have been excluded from the library. Harming a student's education because he/she was born into less well off financial circumstances is a good example of social injustice IMO. This needs to change and the student union need to take a stance on this. Has anyone here had any experience with the issue and have the student union helped you?

errlloyd · 11-03-2014 12:35AM

SU did a pretty good job during the SUSI crisis of lobbying the library to allow those waiting on their grants to get in. In fact Shane Comer who was education officer handled it pretty well. Under the status quo a student still only has to have a paid a third of their fees or something to get in.

Relevant passage.

http://www.universityobserver.ie/2012/11/26/susi-delays-slammed-as-shambolic-by-education-officer-as-payments-deferred-until-january/

Students nationwide have been affected by the SUSI delays, with USI President John Logue claiming that students are dropping out of college because they cannot afford to be there without their grant payment. In UCD, students were being blocked out of the library as their fees had not been paid as a result of the delays, however Comer has met with UCD and the library to come to an arrangement that these students will be granted access until their grant comes through. “There’s normally a grace period with fees and that ends in the 5th week of term, and we’ve managed to extend that to the end of January. Students on SUSI will be granted access to the library because of that.”

If you can't afford college fees you usually qualify for a grant and in that case you shouldn't be paying them anyway. Obviously a small amount of students fall somewhere in between qualifying for a grant and being financially comfortable. There will always be exceptions, it would be nice to minimise them where possible, the SU campaigns pretty hard for that. The SU's position officially according to the 2011 referendum is that the students support the current system of student contribution for fees. So the SU doesn't have a mandate to campaign for completely free education.

As for social justice? Well it depends what you call education.

Raphael · 11-03-2014 02:03PM

Honestly, I have little sympathy, crappy as that seems of me. Certainly in exceptional circumstances like the SUSI debacle the college should make allowances, and fair play to the SU for helping out there. But in normal circumstances? Nobody had the registration fee sprung on them. If they can't pay, then in all likelihood they should have known that. And they shouldn't have come to college unless they could afford to pay the fees. If something came up that screwed them over - that's unfortunate, but you can always take out a loan, or take a leave of absence for a year to sort things out and earn some money.

But that said, my position is that free/subsidised 3rd level education is a failed experiment that only serves to benefit the middle class. So my opinion on this comes from that.

TimeToShine · 11-03-2014 04:42PM

Still being forced to pay this early only serves to indicate that the college is having cash flow issues. I think that depriving people of library access is very petty and has "money before education" written all over it.

[Jackass] · 11-03-2014 07:29PM

As someone who's been locked out of the library a couple of years in a row, I do understand it, even though it sucks.

The main reason is that for the vast majority of people who haven't paid fee's by that time of year, it's a case of getting around to it rather than not affording it. If you can't get into the library you'll sort it out pretty soon and presumably this measure is one of last resort after years of constant reminders to get students to pay fees who will wait until the end of semester exam results time in order to pay it to see their results.

I mean, we don't have it that bad, a couple of grand for a world class university, I'd imagine in universities in the US or somewhere you wouldn't make past the gate without having your tens of thousands of dollars fee paid well in advance and then it's between you and the bank to sort out. They're not being unreasonable they're simply asking for what is owed.

If you genuinely can't afford it (as has happened me in the past), I've often got day passes after explaining my situation. They'll do it a few times (I think it goes on your record how many times you get one) but if you're taking the piss they'll cut you off.

It's the same as saying it's unreasonable that the bank repossessed my car, as I need that to get around, but didn't prioritise paying for it on time.

ironclaw · 11-03-2014 09:25PM

Not being harsh, but the internet access is free in the entire campus and a cheap laptop / iPad is a fraction of the fees. Whilst not a solution, it will keep your head above water. I've been the library a handful of times in my 5 years and I've loaned a book twice (Both later found to be completely unnecessarily) Everything I've ever wanted has been on the net for free (Obviously some grey areas there)

Where there is a will, there is a way. I often find people that can't / won't pay have not exhausted every possible avenue available to them. Its a typical throw the hands in the air and blame others.

steddyeddy · 13-03-2014 01:58AM

ironclaw wrote: »

Not being harsh, but the internet access is free in the entire campus and a cheap laptop / iPad is a fraction of the fees. Whilst not a solution, it will keep your head above water. I've been the library a handful of times in my 5 years and I've loaned a book twice (Both later found to be completely unnecessarily) Everything I've ever wanted has been on the net for free (Obviously some grey areas there)

Where there is a will, there is a way. I often find people that can't / won't pay have not exhausted every possible avenue available to them. Its a typical throw the hands in the air and blame others.

Having dealt with these people in various outreach programs I can assure you this is not the case. Some students are sleeping in cars having left home due to abusive parents and other issues. They are also working part time to afford fees yet issues with displacement result in the need to redirect fees.

I highlighted the "often" part of you're post. Two things:

What aspect of student welfare are you involved in that causes you to "often" come into contact with many who struggle to pay fees?
I find it intriguing that you seem confident that so many people, many of whom have confronted massive socio-economic obstacles to get to college are incompetent when it comes to fees. What skills do you have that they wouldn't?

errlloyd · 13-03-2014 02:24AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Having dealt with these people in various outreach programs I can assure you this is not the case. Some students are sleeping in cars having left home due to abusive parents and other issues. They are also working part time to afford fees yet issues with displacement result in the need to redirect fees.

I highlighted the "often" part of you're post. Two things:

What aspect of student welfare are you involved in that causes you to "often" come into contact with many who struggle to pay fees?

I find it intriguing that you seem confident that so many people, many of whom have confronted massive socio-economic obstacles to get to college are incompetent when it comes to fees. What skills do you have that they wouldn't?

I know its quite often difficult to get estrangement officially recognised by the state, but if they have been cut off by their parents they should qualify for free fees through the grant.

steddyeddy · 13-03-2014 01:27PM

errlloyd wrote: »

I know its quite often difficult to get estrangement officially recognised by the state, but if they have been cut off by their parents they should qualify for free fees through the grant.

Yes thanks but the registration fee isn't covered.

Raphael · 13-03-2014 01:34PM

Yes it is. If you're eligible for a grant, you don't have to pay the student contribution, just the €208 levy.

ironclaw · 13-03-2014 05:30PM

Having dealt with these people in various outreach programs I can assure you this is not the case. Some students are sleeping in cars having left home due to abusive parents and other issues.

Firstly, they are extreme cases. And yes, I'd dig into my own pockets to help someone in that scenario because I'd imagine food and shelter are far higher on your list of priorities than where you next book is going to come from. And while not minimising their plight, your talking about an extreme minority of students would be that badly affected. Also, hate to say it, but if you sleeping in a car, you own a car?

Thats an asset and have value. Use it. I'm not saying sell it, but a car can be used to make money if you use your head.

And thats another point, I've never been unemployed since 2006. There are jobs out there. Plenty in fact. And if I didn't have a job, I'd be using my head and trying to use what I did have to get the next euro in my pocket.

What aspect of student welfare are you involved in that causes you to "often" come into contact with many who struggle to pay fees?

Plenty of success stories both in UCD and nationally of people that have come from nothing to achieve success. If you want something bad enough, you'll make it happen. I wanted to write an App, I sat down and learned how to code. I wanted to run a marathon, I went out and trained. I expect nothing from anyone. As stupid as it sounds, if I was homeless in the morning I know exactly the next step I would take and my priorities I would have. Some people have this ridiculous attitude that if you stand long enough somewhere or stretch your hand far enough someone will look after you (Government, Welfare etc) I suggest anyone who works in 'welfare' in Ireland to roam the streets of LA, San Diego (Pretty much any major American city) and see what real hardship is like.

I have no ties to Student Welfare or otherwise. But that doesn't make my opinion any less valid. In fact, I live in an area that would be considered 'lower socio-economic' by many.

I find it intriguing that you seem confident that so many people, many of whom have confronted massive socio-economic obstacles to get to college are incompetent when it comes to fees. What skills do you have that they wouldn't?

I never said anyone from certain backgrounds were incapable or incompetent. Some of the best people in my life come from backgrounds and areas that some people would look down on. I don't. In fact, they are all talented and gifted people who have climbed higher obstacles. One gentleman, no leaving cert but his P60 would be 5 times mine. Why? He went out and wanted it badly enough.

Basically, my argument (And thats the wrong word here), is that if you want it, go get it. Make it happen. But don't expect the rest of us to shoulder it. For every person having a bad day, there are 10 more far worst off than you. So ask yourself how you can improve yourself to help those more needy. Its what I do, and my wallet is often empty because of it. And I don't begrudge a cent of it.

steddyeddy · 10-04-2014 12:02AM

Raphael wrote: »

Honestly, I have little sympathy, crappy as that seems of me. Certainly in exceptional circumstances like the SUSI debacle the college should make allowances, and fair play to the SU for helping out there. But in normal circumstances? Nobody had the registration fee sprung on them. If they can't pay, then in all likelihood they should have known that. And they shouldn't have come to college unless they could afford to pay the fees. If something came up that screwed them over - that's unfortunate, but you can always take out a loan, or take a leave of absence for a year to sort things out and earn some money.

But that said, my position is that free/subsidised 3rd level education is a failed experiment that only serves to benefit the middle class. So my opinion on this comes from that.

It's not crappy just ignorant of the facts.

You see the problem I have is that very very few people can afford fees in UCD. Most of the people are born into circumstances that afford them the ability to go to college ie their parents pay their fees or/and they have stable roof over their head.

Those I have dealt with in college come from abusive homes or foster homes ie they have no one to pay their fees. Third level education is an escape from one's circumstances. Now based on your argument those people knew things would be difficult and shouldn't have come to college.

I have a massive problem with that however it's an argument I came across many times in UCD. People say "If you can't afford fees you shouldn't be here" despite the fact their parents pay their fees. Amazing how a touch of sense entitlement will cause people to think that people who weren't as lucky as them shouldn't be in college. It's snobbery pure and simple.

steddyeddy · 10-04-2014 12:05AM

ironclaw wrote: »

Firstly, they are extreme cases. And yes, I'd dig into my own pockets to help someone in that scenario because I'd imagine food and shelter are far higher on your list of priorities than where you next book is going to come from. And while not minimising their plight, your talking about an extreme minority of students would be that badly affected. Also, hate to say it, but if you sleeping in a car, you own a car? Thats an asset and have value. Use it. I'm not saying sell it, but a car can be used to make money if you use your head.

And thats another point, I've never been unemployed since 2006. There are jobs out there. Plenty in fact. And if I didn't have a job, I'd be using my head and trying to use what I did have to get the next euro in my pocket.

Plenty of success stories both in UCD and nationally of people that have come from nothing to achieve success. If you want something bad enough, you'll make it happen. I wanted to write an App, I sat down and learned how to code. I wanted to run a marathon, I went out and trained. I expect nothing from anyone. As stupid as it sounds, if I was homeless in the morning I know exactly the next step I would take and my priorities I would have. Some people have this ridiculous attitude that if you stand long enough somewhere or stretch your hand far enough someone will look after you (Government, Welfare etc) I suggest anyone who works in 'welfare' in Ireland to roam the streets of LA, San Diego (Pretty much any major American city) and see what real hardship is like.

I have no ties to Student Welfare or otherwise. But that doesn't make my opinion any less valid. In fact, I live in an area that would be considered 'lower socio-economic' by many.

I never said anyone from certain backgrounds were incapable or incompetent. Some of the best people in my life come from backgrounds and areas that some people would look down on. I don't. In fact, they are all talented and gifted people who have climbed higher obstacles. One gentleman, no leaving cert but his P60 would be 5 times mine. Why? He went out and wanted it badly enough.

Basically, my argument (And thats the wrong word here), is that if you want it, go get it. Make it happen. But don't expect the rest of us to shoulder it. For every person having a bad day, there are 10 more far worst off than you. So ask yourself how you can improve yourself to help those more needy. Its what I do, and my wallet is often empty because of it. And I don't begrudge a cent of it.

I only represent the extreme cases like abuse victims or foster home cases. The administration and lecturers (many who come from poor backgrounds) are very helpful but some of these student's colleagues have attitudes that these students weren't born into money so shouldn't be there.

10-04-2014 09:10AM

If you have an extreme case, fair enough, argue it with the university. But as a general rule, they need a stick to get people to pay their fees. Otherwise what do they do? Let them away with it? Then they are essentially waiving the fees.

And of course you bring up snobbery. Try arguing the facts for once.

steddyeddy · 10-04-2014 09:17AM

AdamD wrote: »

If you have an extreme case, fair enough, argue it with the university. But as a general rule, they need a stick to get people to pay their fees. Otherwise what do they do? Let them away with it? Then they are essentially waiving the fees.

And of course you bring up snobbery. Try arguing the facts for once.

People who had fees payed for them by parents suggesting that those without a patron shouldn't be in university is snobbery.

I'm talking about people who temporarily can't pay.

10-04-2014 09:20AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

People who had fees payed for them by parents suggesting that those without a patron shouldn't be in university is snobbery.

I'm talking about people who temporarily can't pay.

Again I'd say you should be able to negotiate this with the University, as long as its temporary. (don't know if there's anything in place for that to happen)

I've gone without the library myself without any difficulties, may be different for students in other faculties though.

ironclaw · 10-04-2014 12:28PM

AdamD wrote: »

If you have an extreme case, fair enough, argue it with the university. But as a general rule, they need a stick to get people to pay their fees. Otherwise what do they do? Let them away with it? Then they are essentially waiving the fees.

I agree with Adam. No one, and I mean no one, wants to pay for anything in this world. From working in retail, every person wants a discount or a freebie. Its become insane especially since 2008. From my Apps, I 'sold' a thousand times more free Apps than an App that cost €0.79. I'm pretty active on the Motor forum here, and again, car tax is being evaded mostly because people don't think its 'just' but I read that as 'I'm cheap and don't want to pay' Well unfortunately its the law. If you can't or won't pay it, stay off the road.

I have no issue with the University making allowances for extreme cases, but I feel, and its only an opinion, the majority of people giving out about fee's are people who are just 'cheap' in general. Give someone an inch and they'll want a mile.

steddyeddy · 11-04-2014 11:37PM

AdamD wrote: »

If you have an extreme case, fair enough, argue it with the university. But as a general rule, they need a stick to get people to pay their fees. Otherwise what do they do? Let them away with it? Then they are essentially waiving the fees.

And of course you bring up snobbery. Try arguing the facts for once.

As a general rule yes but not with people putting themselves through hell trying to rise above their lot in life. Generally that university is good when it comes to recognising this (not as good as Trinity) but some of the students attitudes towards those born into less lucky conditions is bewildering.

steddyeddy · 11-04-2014 11:40PM

AdamD wrote: »

Again I'd say you should be able to negotiate this with the University, as long as its temporary. (don't know if there's anything in place for that to happen)

I've gone without the library myself without any difficulties, may be different for students in other faculties though.

Well people who have been the victim of rape, physical abuse or any form of trauma that the students I represent have endured often have social anxiety issues. Excluding them from library based on the fact that they haven't got parents to pay their fees isn't easy for them.

steddyeddy · 12-04-2014 10:12AM

ironclaw wrote: »

I agree with Adam. No one, and I mean no one, wants to pay for anything in this world. From working in retail, every person wants a discount or a freebie. Its become insane especially since 2008. From my Apps, I 'sold' a thousand times more free Apps than an App that cost €0.79. I'm pretty active on the Motor forum here, and again, car tax is being evaded mostly because people don't think its 'just' but I read that as 'I'm cheap and don't want to pay' Well unfortunately its the law. If you can't or won't pay it, stay off the road.

I have no issue with the University making allowances for extreme cases, but I feel, and its only an opinion, the majority of people giving out about fee's are people who are just 'cheap' in general. Give someone an inch and they'll want a mile.

Do you not think people feel a moral obligation to pay for debts? I certainly do and I know a lot of students (who haven't had anything handed to them) feel guilty over not being able to pay.

ironclaw · 12-04-2014 04:12PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Do you not think people feel a moral obligation to pay for debts? I certainly do and I know a lot of students (who haven't had anything handed to them) feel guilty over not being able to pay.

No, its not about paying debt. It's more so about the fact people have to pay for something. Everyone wants something for free. If people think they could get even 5% off something, they'd go through you for a shortcut.

For example, I run a good deal of social media for a few companies. And on occasion, we've tested the water with 'Like & Share' competitions (FYI, they are useless for RoI) but its amazing the trend you get from those as opposed to a '10% off in store if you mention XYZ' post. The net result is people have no interest in paying, no matter how good the deal if they have a cheaper (Or free) alternative. I've seen lads drive distances (i.e. Northern Ireland) to save perhaps €20 on an off license order. Thats the level of 'cheap' we're looking at in this country and its extremely common. I don't light my fire with €50's but I'd like to think that I'm not so cheap that I'd drive 100 miles for marginally cheaper booze.

I'd once again like to draw the distinction between those that can't and won't pay. I have zero issue with someone in an extreme circumstance, like the ones you describe eddy, but I believe the majority who cry wolf over the high cost of fee's just don't feel like paying for it. We're spoon-feeding an entire generation with cheap, often meaningless, degree's and we're diluting those that actually want to excel and make their own way.

The bigger problem as I see it is how cheap a degree is these days. I was talking to a very senior HR director for a large UK company and they are upping requirments to Master's level for Irish applicants, simply because every Tom, Dick and Harry has a degree in Ireland. Its almost meaningless and part of life to go to University, sit there for 4 years and get some parchment. Everyone has a right to education but we need to be considering the longer term effects of giving out degree's like business cards at a networking event.

Calina · 15-04-2014 08:42AM

ironclaw wrote: »

The bigger problem as I see it is how cheap a degree is these days. I was talking to a very senior HR director for a large UK company and they are upping requirments to Master's level for Irish applicants, simply because every Tom, Dick and Harry has a degree in Ireland. Its almost meaningless and part of life to go to University, sit there for 4 years and get some parchment. Everyone has a right to education but we need to be considering the longer term effects of giving out degree's like business cards at a networking event.

Presumably your HR director has already done the same in the UK given the ubiquity of three year degrees there?

ironclaw · 15-04-2014 09:10AM

Calina wrote: »

Presumably your HR director has already done the same in the UK given the ubiquity of three year degrees there?

They are not 'my' HR director. Just people I have met at events and in conversation. Same applied to a HR director I met in Canada. Its simple economics really, something becomes less valuable the more people that have it. However at least in the UK people earn their degree's and realise the true economic cost of getting one. Having a Masters is rare in the UK for example. Here, its far more common.

A simple 4 year degree won't cut it in 10 years time if we keep handing them out like we do here. For instance, the requirement for entry to some Master's courses is being up'd (Engineering for example) and I for one welcome it. It's, somewhat, annoying to be in the same room as someone who scrimp'd by when you applied yourself to the base course.

steddyeddy · 15-04-2014 09:31AM

ironclaw wrote: »

They are not 'my' HR director. Just people I have met at events and in conversation. Same applied to a HR director I met in Canada. Its simple economics really, something becomes less valuable the more people that have it. However at least in the UK people earn their degree's and realise the true economic cost of getting one. Having a Masters is rare in the UK for example. Here, its far more common.

A simple 4 year degree won't cut it in 10 years time if we keep handing them out like we do here. For instance, the requirement for entry to some Master's courses is being up'd (Engineering for example) and I for one welcome it. It's, somewhat, annoying to be in the same room as someone who scrimp'd by when you applied yourself to the base course.

It really really depends on the degree Ironclaw. My discipline as an undergraduate was biochemistry and this year there are only 8 people registered for a degree in biochemistry. Those people will be headhunted the minute they leave the job.

ironclaw · 15-04-2014 11:43AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

It really really depends on the degree Ironclaw. My discipline as an undergraduate was biochemistry and this year there are only 8 people registered for a degree in biochemistry. Those people will be headhunted the minute they leave the job.

Of course! Sorry, its hard to avoid sounding like a high and mighty, sweeping generalisation

Sugar Free · 15-04-2014 11:47AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

It really really depends on the degree Ironclaw. My discipline as an undergraduate was biochemistry and this year there are only 8 people registered for a degree in biochemistry. Those people will be headhunted the minute they leave the job.

Honestly I've never heard of UCD life science undergrads being headhunted for anything and I say this as one (graduate, not undergrad) myself. PhD's sure but not undergrads.

steddyeddy · 15-04-2014 01:08PM

Sugar Free wrote: »

Honestly I've never heard of UCD life science undergrads being headhunted for anything and I say this as one myself. PhD's sure but not undergrads.

Biochemistry is prized as a degree as most people avoid it. It happens and I say it as a PhD.

Sugar Free · 15-04-2014 02:23PM

We'll have to agree to disagree so.

Back to the original question though, I think my thoughts would align most closely with Ironclaws re: can't vs. won't pay and excluding extreme cases.

steddyeddy · 15-04-2014 07:57PM

Sugar Free wrote: »

We'll have to agree to disagree so.

Back to the original question though, I think my thoughts would align most closely with Ironclaws re: can't vs. won't pay and excluding extreme cases.

Well you can find out when you're finished your degree.

Unfortunately there are a lot of extreme cases in UCD.

Sugar Free · 15-04-2014 08:03PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well you can find out when you're finished your degree.

Unfortunately there are a lot of extreme cases in UCD.

I finished several years ago (see my edit).

steddyeddy · 15-04-2014 10:24PM

On the can't pay won't pay issue is it not the case that most people have their parents pay their fees?

Being excluded from the library for being unable to pay fees

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