Being excluded from the library for being unable to pay fees

steddyeddy

I'm a PhD student so this doesn't apply to me but I know many people who cannot (as opposed to will not pay) that have been excluded from the library. Harming a student's education because he/she was born into less well off financial circumstances is a good example of social injustice IMO. This needs to change and the student union need to take a stance on this. Has anyone here had any experience with the issue and have the student union helped you?

errlloyd

SU did a pretty good job during the SUSI crisis of lobbying the library to allow those waiting on their grants to get in. In fact Shane Comer who was education officer handled it pretty well. Under the status quo a student still only has to have a paid a third of their fees or something to get in.

Relevant passage.

http://www.universityobserver.ie/2012/11/26/susi-delays-slammed-as-shambolic-by-education-officer-as-payments-deferred-until-january/

Students nationwide have been affected by the SUSI delays, with USI President John Logue claiming that students are dropping out of college because they cannot afford to be there without their grant payment. In UCD, students were being blocked out of the library as their fees had not been paid as a result of the delays, however Comer has met with UCD and the library to come to an arrangement that these students will be granted access until their grant comes through. “There’s normally a grace period with fees and that ends in the 5th week of term, and we’ve managed to extend that to the end of January. Students on SUSI will be granted access to the library because of that.”

If you can't afford college fees you usually qualify for a grant and in that case you shouldn't be paying them anyway. Obviously a small amount of students fall somewhere in between qualifying for a grant and being financially comfortable. There will always be exceptions, it would be nice to minimise them where possible, the SU campaigns pretty hard for that. The SU's position officially according to the 2011 referendum is that the students support the current system of student contribution for fees. So the SU doesn't have a mandate to campaign for completely free education.

As for social justice? Well it depends what you call education.

Raphael

Honestly, I have little sympathy, crappy as that seems of me. Certainly in exceptional circumstances like the SUSI debacle the college should make allowances, and fair play to the SU for helping out there. But in normal circumstances? Nobody had the registration fee sprung on them. If they can't pay, then in all likelihood they should have known that. And they shouldn't have come to college unless they could afford to pay the fees. If something came up that screwed them over - that's unfortunate, but you can always take out a loan, or take a leave of absence for a year to sort things out and earn some money.

But that said, my position is that free/subsidised 3rd level education is a failed experiment that only serves to benefit the middle class. So my opinion on this comes from that.

TimeToShine

Still being forced to pay this early only serves to indicate that the college is having cash flow issues. I think that depriving people of library access is very petty and has "money before education" written all over it.

[Jackass]

As someone who's been locked out of the library a couple of years in a row, I do understand it, even though it sucks.

The main reason is that for the vast majority of people who haven't paid fee's by that time of year, it's a case of getting around to it rather than not affording it. If you can't get into the library you'll sort it out pretty soon and presumably this measure is one of last resort after years of constant reminders to get students to pay fees who will wait until the end of semester exam results time in order to pay it to see their results.

I mean, we don't have it that bad, a couple of grand for a world class university, I'd imagine in universities in the US or somewhere you wouldn't make past the gate without having your tens of thousands of dollars fee paid well in advance and then it's between you and the bank to sort out. They're not being unreasonable they're simply asking for what is owed.

If you genuinely can't afford it (as has happened me in the past), I've often got day passes after explaining my situation. They'll do it a few times (I think it goes on your record how many times you get one) but if you're taking the piss they'll cut you off.

It's the same as saying it's unreasonable that the bank repossessed my car, as I need that to get around, but didn't prioritise paying for it on time.

ironclaw

Not being harsh, but the internet access is free in the entire campus and a cheap laptop / iPad is a fraction of the fees. Whilst not a solution, it will keep your head above water. I've been the library a handful of times in my 5 years and I've loaned a book twice (Both later found to be completely unnecessarily) Everything I've ever wanted has been on the net for free (Obviously some grey areas there)

Where there is a will, there is a way. I often find people that can't / won't pay have not exhausted every possible avenue available to them. Its a typical throw the hands in the air and blame others.

steddyeddy

ironclaw wrote: »

Not being harsh, but the internet access is free in the entire campus and a cheap laptop / iPad is a fraction of the fees. Whilst not a solution, it will keep your head above water. I've been the library a handful of times in my 5 years and I've loaned a book twice (Both later found to be completely unnecessarily) Everything I've ever wanted has been on the net for free (Obviously some grey areas there)

Where there is a will, there is a way. I often find people that can't / won't pay have not exhausted every possible avenue available to them. Its a typical throw the hands in the air and blame others.

Having dealt with these people in various outreach programs I can assure you this is not the case. Some students are sleeping in cars having left home due to abusive parents and other issues. They are also working part time to afford fees yet issues with displacement result in the need to redirect fees.

I highlighted the "often" part of you're post. Two things:

• What aspect of student welfare are you involved in that causes you to "often" come into contact with many who struggle to pay fees?
• I find it intriguing that you seem confident that so many people, many of whom have confronted massive socio-economic obstacles to get to college are incompetent when it comes to fees. What skills do you have that they wouldn't?

errlloyd

steddyeddy wrote: »

Having dealt with these people in various outreach programs I can assure you this is not the case. Some students are sleeping in cars having left home due to abusive parents and other issues. They are also working part time to afford fees yet issues with displacement result in the need to redirect fees.

I highlighted the "often" part of you're post. Two things:

• What aspect of student welfare are you involved in that causes you to "often" come into contact with many who struggle to pay fees?
• I find it intriguing that you seem confident that so many people, many of whom have confronted massive socio-economic obstacles to get to college are incompetent when it comes to fees. What skills do you have that they wouldn't?

I know its quite often difficult to get estrangement officially recognised by the state, but if they have been cut off by their parents they should qualify for free fees through the grant.

steddyeddy

errlloyd wrote: »

I know its quite often difficult to get estrangement officially recognised by the state, but if they have been cut off by their parents they should qualify for free fees through the grant.

Yes thanks but the registration fee isn't covered.

Raphael

Yes it is. If you're eligible for a grant, you don't have to pay the student contribution, just the €208 levy.

ironclaw

Having dealt with these people in various outreach programs I can assure you this is not the case. Some students are sleeping in cars having left home due to abusive parents and other issues.

Firstly, they are extreme cases. And yes, I'd dig into my own pockets to help someone in that scenario because I'd imagine food and shelter are far higher on your list of priorities than where you next book is going to come from. And while not minimising their plight, your talking about an extreme minority of students would be that badly affected. Also, hate to say it, but if you sleeping in a car, you own a car? Thats an asset and have value. Use it. I'm not saying sell it, but a car can be used to make money if you use your head.

And thats another point, I've never been unemployed since 2006. There are jobs out there. Plenty in fact. And if I didn't have a job, I'd be using my head and trying to use what I did have to get the next euro in my pocket.

What aspect of student welfare are you involved in that causes you to "often" come into contact with many who struggle to pay fees?

Plenty of success stories both in UCD and nationally of people that have come from nothing to achieve success. If you want something bad enough, you'll make it happen. I wanted to write an App, I sat down and learned how to code. I wanted to run a marathon, I went out and trained. I expect nothing from anyone. As stupid as it sounds, if I was homeless in the morning I know exactly the next step I would take and my priorities I would have. Some people have this ridiculous attitude that if you stand long enough somewhere or stretch your hand far enough someone will look after you (Government, Welfare etc) I suggest anyone who works in 'welfare' in Ireland to roam the streets of LA, San Diego (Pretty much any major American city) and see what real hardship is like.

I have no ties to Student Welfare or otherwise. But that doesn't make my opinion any less valid. In fact, I live in an area that would be considered 'lower socio-economic' by many.

I find it intriguing that you seem confident that so many people, many of whom have confronted massive socio-economic obstacles to get to college are incompetent when it comes to fees. What skills do you have that they wouldn't?

I never said anyone from certain backgrounds were incapable or incompetent. Some of the best people in my life come from backgrounds and areas that some people would look down on. I don't. In fact, they are all talented and gifted people who have climbed higher obstacles. One gentleman, no leaving cert but his P60 would be 5 times mine. Why? He went out and wanted it badly enough.

Basically, my argument (And thats the wrong word here), is that if you want it, go get it. Make it happen. But don't expect the rest of us to shoulder it. For every person having a bad day, there are 10 more far worst off than you. So ask yourself how you can improve yourself to help those more needy. Its what I do, and my wallet is often empty because of it. And I don't begrudge a cent of it.

steddyeddy

Raphael wrote: »

Honestly, I have little sympathy, crappy as that seems of me. Certainly in exceptional circumstances like the SUSI debacle the college should make allowances, and fair play to the SU for helping out there. But in normal circumstances? Nobody had the registration fee sprung on them. If they can't pay, then in all likelihood they should have known that. And they shouldn't have come to college unless they could afford to pay the fees. If something came up that screwed them over - that's unfortunate, but you can always take out a loan, or take a leave of absence for a year to sort things out and earn some money.

But that said, my position is that free/subsidised 3rd level education is a failed experiment that only serves to benefit the middle class. So my opinion on this comes from that.

It's not crappy just ignorant of the facts.

You see the problem I have is that very very few people can afford fees in UCD. Most of the people are born into circumstances that afford them the ability to go to college ie their parents pay their fees or/and they have stable roof over their head.

Those I have dealt with in college come from abusive homes or foster homes ie they have no one to pay their fees. Third level education is an escape from one's circumstances. Now based on your argument those people knew things would be difficult and shouldn't have come to college.

I have a massive problem with that however it's an argument I came across many times in UCD. People say "If you can't afford fees you shouldn't be here" despite the fact their parents pay their fees. Amazing how a touch of sense entitlement will cause people to think that people who weren't as lucky as them shouldn't be in college. It's snobbery pure and simple.

steddyeddy

ironclaw wrote: »

Firstly, they are extreme cases. And yes, I'd dig into my own pockets to help someone in that scenario because I'd imagine food and shelter are far higher on your list of priorities than where you next book is going to come from. And while not minimising their plight, your talking about an extreme minority of students would be that badly affected. Also, hate to say it, but if you sleeping in a car, you own a car? Thats an asset and have value. Use it. I'm not saying sell it, but a car can be used to make money if you use your head.

And thats another point, I've never been unemployed since 2006. There are jobs out there. Plenty in fact. And if I didn't have a job, I'd be using my head and trying to use what I did have to get the next euro in my pocket.



Plenty of success stories both in UCD and nationally of people that have come from nothing to achieve success. If you want something bad enough, you'll make it happen. I wanted to write an App, I sat down and learned how to code. I wanted to run a marathon, I went out and trained. I expect nothing from anyone. As stupid as it sounds, if I was homeless in the morning I know exactly the next step I would take and my priorities I would have. Some people have this ridiculous attitude that if you stand long enough somewhere or stretch your hand far enough someone will look after you (Government, Welfare etc) I suggest anyone who works in 'welfare' in Ireland to roam the streets of LA, San Diego (Pretty much any major American city) and see what real hardship is like.

I have no ties to Student Welfare or otherwise. But that doesn't make my opinion any less valid. In fact, I live in an area that would be considered 'lower socio-economic' by many.



I never said anyone from certain backgrounds were incapable or incompetent. Some of the best people in my life come from backgrounds and areas that some people would look down on. I don't. In fact, they are all talented and gifted people who have climbed higher obstacles. One gentleman, no leaving cert but his P60 would be 5 times mine. Why? He went out and wanted it badly enough.

Basically, my argument (And thats the wrong word here), is that if you want it, go get it. Make it happen. But don't expect the rest of us to shoulder it. For every person having a bad day, there are 10 more far worst off than you. So ask yourself how you can improve yourself to help those more needy. Its what I do, and my wallet is often empty because of it. And I don't begrudge a cent of it.

I only represent the extreme cases like abuse victims or foster home cases. The administration and lecturers (many who come from poor backgrounds) are very helpful but some of these student's colleagues have attitudes that these students weren't born into money so shouldn't be there.

If you have an extreme case, fair enough, argue it with the university. But as a general rule, they need a stick to get people to pay their fees. Otherwise what do they do? Let them away with it? Then they are essentially waiving the fees.

And of course you bring up snobbery. Try arguing the facts for once.

steddyeddy

AdamD wrote: »

If you have an extreme case, fair enough, argue it with the university. But as a general rule, they need a stick to get people to pay their fees. Otherwise what do they do? Let them away with it? Then they are essentially waiving the fees.

And of course you bring up snobbery. Try arguing the facts for once.

People who had fees payed for them by parents suggesting that those without a patron shouldn't be in university is snobbery.

I'm talking about people who temporarily can't pay.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

People who had fees payed for them by parents suggesting that those without a patron shouldn't be in university is snobbery.

I'm talking about people who temporarily can't pay.

Again I'd say you should be able to negotiate this with the University, as long as its temporary. (don't know if there's anything in place for that to happen)

I've gone without the library myself without any difficulties, may be different for students in other faculties though.

ironclaw

AdamD wrote: »

If you have an extreme case, fair enough, argue it with the university. But as a general rule, they need a stick to get people to pay their fees. Otherwise what do they do? Let them away with it? Then they are essentially waiving the fees.

I agree with Adam. No one, and I mean no one, wants to pay for anything in this world. From working in retail, every person wants a discount or a freebie. Its become insane especially since 2008. From my Apps, I 'sold' a thousand times more free Apps than an App that cost €0.79. I'm pretty active on the Motor forum here, and again, car tax is being evaded mostly because people don't think its 'just' but I read that as 'I'm cheap and don't want to pay' Well unfortunately its the law. If you can't or won't pay it, stay off the road.

I have no issue with the University making allowances for extreme cases, but I feel, and its only an opinion, the majority of people giving out about fee's are people who are just 'cheap' in general. Give someone an inch and they'll want a mile.

steddyeddy

AdamD wrote: »

If you have an extreme case, fair enough, argue it with the university. But as a general rule, they need a stick to get people to pay their fees. Otherwise what do they do? Let them away with it? Then they are essentially waiving the fees.

And of course you bring up snobbery. Try arguing the facts for once.

As a general rule yes but not with people putting themselves through hell trying to rise above their lot in life. Generally that university is good when it comes to recognising this (not as good as Trinity) but some of the students attitudes towards those born into less lucky conditions is bewildering.

steddyeddy

AdamD wrote: »

Again I'd say you should be able to negotiate this with the University, as long as its temporary. (don't know if there's anything in place for that to happen)

I've gone without the library myself without any difficulties, may be different for students in other faculties though.

Well people who have been the victim of rape, physical abuse or any form of trauma that the students I represent have endured often have social anxiety issues. Excluding them from library based on the fact that they haven't got parents to pay their fees isn't easy for them.

steddyeddy

ironclaw wrote: »

I agree with Adam. No one, and I mean no one, wants to pay for anything in this world. From working in retail, every person wants a discount or a freebie. Its become insane especially since 2008. From my Apps, I 'sold' a thousand times more free Apps than an App that cost €0.79. I'm pretty active on the Motor forum here, and again, car tax is being evaded mostly because people don't think its 'just' but I read that as 'I'm cheap and don't want to pay' Well unfortunately its the law. If you can't or won't pay it, stay off the road.

I have no issue with the University making allowances for extreme cases, but I feel, and its only an opinion, the majority of people giving out about fee's are people who are just 'cheap' in general. Give someone an inch and they'll want a mile.

Do you not think people feel a moral obligation to pay for debts? I certainly do and I know a lot of students (who haven't had anything handed to them) feel guilty over not being able to pay.

ironclaw

steddyeddy wrote: »

Do you not think people feel a moral obligation to pay for debts? I certainly do and I know a lot of students (who haven't had anything handed to them) feel guilty over not being able to pay.

No, its not about paying debt. It's more so about the fact people have to pay for something. Everyone wants something for free. If people think they could get even 5% off something, they'd go through you for a shortcut.

For example, I run a good deal of social media for a few companies. And on occasion, we've tested the water with 'Like & Share' competitions (FYI, they are useless for RoI) but its amazing the trend you get from those as opposed to a '10% off in store if you mention XYZ' post. The net result is people have no interest in paying, no matter how good the deal if they have a cheaper (Or free) alternative. I've seen lads drive distances (i.e. Northern Ireland) to save perhaps €20 on an off license order. Thats the level of 'cheap' we're looking at in this country and its extremely common. I don't light my fire with €50's but I'd like to think that I'm not so cheap that I'd drive 100 miles for marginally cheaper booze.

I'd once again like to draw the distinction between those that can't and won't pay. I have zero issue with someone in an extreme circumstance, like the ones you describe eddy, but I believe the majority who cry wolf over the high cost of fee's just don't feel like paying for it. We're spoon-feeding an entire generation with cheap, often meaningless, degree's and we're diluting those that actually want to excel and make their own way.

The bigger problem as I see it is how cheap a degree is these days. I was talking to a very senior HR director for a large UK company and they are upping requirments to Master's level for Irish applicants, simply because every Tom, Dick and Harry has a degree in Ireland. Its almost meaningless and part of life to go to University, sit there for 4 years and get some parchment. Everyone has a right to education but we need to be considering the longer term effects of giving out degree's like business cards at a networking event.

Calina

ironclaw wrote: »

The bigger problem as I see it is how cheap a degree is these days. I was talking to a very senior HR director for a large UK company and they are upping requirments to Master's level for Irish applicants, simply because every Tom, Dick and Harry has a degree in Ireland. Its almost meaningless and part of life to go to University, sit there for 4 years and get some parchment. Everyone has a right to education but we need to be considering the longer term effects of giving out degree's like business cards at a networking event.

Presumably your HR director has already done the same in the UK given the ubiquity of three year degrees there?

ironclaw

Calina wrote: »

Presumably your HR director has already done the same in the UK given the ubiquity of three year degrees there?

They are not 'my' HR director. Just people I have met at events and in conversation. Same applied to a HR director I met in Canada. Its simple economics really, something becomes less valuable the more people that have it. However at least in the UK people earn their degree's and realise the true economic cost of getting one. Having a Masters is rare in the UK for example. Here, its far more common.

A simple 4 year degree won't cut it in 10 years time if we keep handing them out like we do here. For instance, the requirement for entry to some Master's courses is being up'd (Engineering for example) and I for one welcome it. It's, somewhat, annoying to be in the same room as someone who scrimp'd by when you applied yourself to the base course.

steddyeddy

ironclaw wrote: »

They are not 'my' HR director. Just people I have met at events and in conversation. Same applied to a HR director I met in Canada. Its simple economics really, something becomes less valuable the more people that have it. However at least in the UK people earn their degree's and realise the true economic cost of getting one. Having a Masters is rare in the UK for example. Here, its far more common.

A simple 4 year degree won't cut it in 10 years time if we keep handing them out like we do here. For instance, the requirement for entry to some Master's courses is being up'd (Engineering for example) and I for one welcome it. It's, somewhat, annoying to be in the same room as someone who scrimp'd by when you applied yourself to the base course.

It really really depends on the degree Ironclaw. My discipline as an undergraduate was biochemistry and this year there are only 8 people registered for a degree in biochemistry. Those people will be headhunted the minute they leave the job.

ironclaw

steddyeddy wrote: »

It really really depends on the degree Ironclaw. My discipline as an undergraduate was biochemistry and this year there are only 8 people registered for a degree in biochemistry. Those people will be headhunted the minute they leave the job.

Of course! Sorry, its hard to avoid sounding like a high and mighty, sweeping generalisation

Sugar Free

steddyeddy wrote: »

It really really depends on the degree Ironclaw. My discipline as an undergraduate was biochemistry and this year there are only 8 people registered for a degree in biochemistry. Those people will be headhunted the minute they leave the job.

Honestly I've never heard of UCD life science undergrads being headhunted for anything and I say this as one (graduate, not undergrad) myself. PhD's sure but not undergrads.

steddyeddy

Sugar Free wrote: »

Honestly I've never heard of UCD life science undergrads being headhunted for anything and I say this as one myself. PhD's sure but not undergrads.

Biochemistry is prized as a degree as most people avoid it. It happens and I say it as a PhD.

Sugar Free

We'll have to agree to disagree so.

Back to the original question though, I think my thoughts would align most closely with Ironclaws re: can't vs. won't pay and excluding extreme cases.

steddyeddy

Sugar Free wrote: »

We'll have to agree to disagree so.

Back to the original question though, I think my thoughts would align most closely with Ironclaws re: can't vs. won't pay and excluding extreme cases.

Well you can find out when you're finished your degree.

Unfortunately there are a lot of extreme cases in UCD.

Sugar Free

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well you can find out when you're finished your degree.

Unfortunately there are a lot of extreme cases in UCD.

I finished several years ago (see my edit).

steddyeddy

On the can't pay won't pay issue is it not the case that most people have their parents pay their fees?

Raphael

Many people do, yes. But another large portion of people have their fees waived, because they're in receipt of the grant. The only category's of people who have trouble are.

A) People who aren't eligible for grants, but don't have enough for fees
People who are eligible for grants, but can't afford the 208 euro student centre levy.

People in category A tend to be more won't than can't, or have more cashflow issues than lack of money. People in category B really have more serious issues to consider, as that's unlikely to be the only cost they can't pay.

Most people who are truly financially screwed just plain can't attend college - not because of the fees, but because of all the other costs - books & materials, cost of living, and the lost income from spending 4 years not working full time. That's what I mean when I say free fees is a failure, because it does nothing to address the ancillary costs of attending college. That someone is already managing to handle those but can't afford registration fee is something I have a hard time believing is commonplace.

ironclaw

steddyeddy wrote: »

On the can't pay won't pay issue is it not the case that most people have their parents pay their fees?

I don't know about you but most people don't have €12k hanging around from their summer jobs etc to pay for college for 4 /5 years. I don't. And I worked fairly consistently from 2007 until now. Pretty sure I didn't even make €12k in that time. I'm guessing, but I'd say you'd want the bones of €4k a year to survive in college between fee's, books, food, accommodation and going out.

So, naturally, most parents will pick up some or all of the bill. However, I know a good few people who either have to pay that back or out of morale obligation will pay it back anyway (Myself would fall into that category)

So basically, either your parents pay the fee's or you get a grant. I don't know anyone who off their own back can completely independently afford to go to and stay in college. I mean zero input from parents or similar (i.e Bank loans etc) They must be extremely rare and fair play if they manage to do so! I'd admire them greatly.

I don't think people in this country truly realise how lucky they are to go to college for about €3k a year. Go to the US, where I think the average degree is something like $28.5k (At the low end) rising to $50k at the upper. Life costs money, opportunities have cost, if you are not willing to accept that then stand aside and let those that want to pursue it and acknowledge the cost do so.

Basically, why are people so cheap? We have nothing to be complaining about on the grand scale of things yet we always find something. What would people honestly do with €3k extra in their pocket in the 18 to 24 bracket? They'd drink, holiday or wear it. Make no mistake about it.

steddyeddy

ironclaw wrote: »

I don't know about you but most people don't have €12k hanging around from their summer jobs etc to pay for college for 4 /5 years. I don't. And I worked fairly consistently from 2007 until now. Pretty sure I didn't even make €12k in that time. I'm guessing, but I'd say you'd want the bones of €4k a year to survive in college between fee's, books, food, accommodation and going out.

So, naturally, most parents will pick up some or all of the bill. However, I know a good few people who either have to pay that back or out of morale obligation will pay it back anyway (Myself would fall into that category)

So basically, either your parents pay the fee's or you get a grant. I don't know anyone who off their own back can completely independently afford to go to and stay in college. I mean zero input from parents or similar (i.e Bank loans etc) They must be extremely rare and fair play if they manage to do so! I'd admire them greatly.

I don't think people in this country truly realise how lucky they are to go to college for about €3k a year. Go to the US, where I think the average degree is something like $28.5k (At the low end) rising to $50k at the upper. Life costs money, opportunities have cost, if you are not willing to accept that then stand aside and let those that want to pursue it and acknowledge the cost do so.

Basically, why are people so cheap? We have nothing to be complaining about on the grand scale of things yet we always find something. What would people honestly do with €3k extra in their pocket in the 18 to 24 bracket? They'd drink, holiday or wear it. Make no mistake about it.

The average degree in America isn't worth the paper it's printed on. The fact that students pay so much for a degree means that a lot of students feel entitled to demand the grades they want.

Calina

ironclaw wrote: »

So basically, either your parents pay the fee's or you get a grant. I don't know anyone who off their own back can completely independently afford to go to and stay in college. I mean zero input from parents or similar (i.e Bank loans etc) They must be extremely rare and fair play if they manage to do so! I'd admire them greatly.

You've a narrow outlook on who does what. I'm funding my own studies this year having worked for over ten years. Admittedly Masters level but the point is not all students are the immediately post secondary school demographic.

ironclaw wrote: »

I don't think people in this country truly realise how lucky they are to go to college for about €3k a year.

I was of the cohort who actually paid fees of around €3k 20 years ago before so called free fees.

I think most people here recognise they are in Europe where education is seen as a common good, not a privilege. Most European countries don't charge for primary degrees, or if they do, the amount of money involved is less again. Germany experimented and went back to free college access.

ironclaw wrote: »

Go to the US, where I think the average degree is something like $28.5k (At the low end) rising to $50k at the upper. Life costs money, opportunities have cost, if you are not willing to accept that then stand aside and let those that want to pursue it and acknowledge the cost do so.

Comparing us with America is just laziness because it's not just about the fees. There are some extremely good universities in the US, but importing their fee structure will not magically turn our universities into Stanford, Carnegie Mellon or MIT. Against that, a lot of their non-elite colleges and the fees concerned have led to massive, massive problems with education fee related debt in the US, along with a bunch of regulations that says it won't be written off, even in bankruptcy.

ironclaw wrote: »

Basically, why are people so cheap? We have nothing to be complaining about on the grand scale of things yet we always find something. What would people honestly do with €3k extra in their pocket in the 18 to 24 bracket? They'd drink, holiday or wear it. Make no mistake about it.

Here's the point - I actually really wouldn't mind that. Well I'd mind them drinking it to some extent but that's because I generally think that there are no morally acceptable drinkers to be frank. If it's not alright when you're a student, it's not alright when you're a working person either.

The complaints I have about the university system in Ireland don't generally impact on UCD - but I do consider that a lot of vocational qualifications have been magicked into university degrees which may not be the best approach either for the training concerned or the reputation of having a university degree.

The one policy I would be staunchly against is the introduction of fees. A high level of common education is actually a social good for a lot of different reasons and it should not have an economic barrier per se. However, the structure of how we implement it, and the non-subject driven skills, need to be considered. The one thing people in Ireland sadly lack, across all levels, is critical thinking skills.

steddyeddy

Raphael wrote: »

Many people do, yes. But another large portion of people have their fees waived, because they're in receipt of the grant. The only category's of people who have trouble are.

A) People who aren't eligible for grants, but don't have enough for fees
People who are eligible for grants, but can't afford the 208 euro student centre levy.

People in category A tend to be more won't than can't, or have more cashflow issues than lack of money. People in category B really have more serious issues to consider, as that's unlikely to be the only cost they can't pay.

Most people who are truly financially screwed just plain can't attend college - not because of the fees, but because of all the other costs - books & materials, cost of living, and the lost income from spending 4 years not working full time. That's what I mean when I say free fees is a failure, because it does nothing to address the ancillary costs of attending college. That someone is already managing to handle those but can't afford registration fee is something I have a hard time believing is commonplace.

Well prepare to be shocked. I'm not talking about fees like 8-12k. I'm talking about students who temporarily cannot pay a third of the student levy fee. That's how much people are struggling and I don't think it's fair to exclude those people from the library based on ~90 euro.

UCD is falling over itself to open up access to college to people from disadvantaged backgrounds. Those at the top of the college do indeed believe that everyone has a right to college independent of parental wealth. The sad thing is there's a lot of students who come from a privileged position of having their rent and food paid for who look down on students who are trying to rise out of poverty.

steddyeddy

Calina wrote: »

You've a narrow outlook on who does what. I'm funding my own studies this year having worked for over ten years. Admittedly Masters level but the point is not all students are the immediately post secondary school demographic.



I was of the cohort who actually paid fees of around €3k 20 years ago before so called free fees.

I think most people here recognise they are in Europe where education is seen as a common good, not a privilege. Most European countries don't charge for primary degrees, or if they do, the amount of money involved is less again. Germany experimented and went back to free college access.



Comparing us with America is just laziness because it's not just about the fees. There are some extremely good universities in the US, but importing their fee structure will not magically turn our universities into Stanford, Carnegie Mellon or MIT. Against that, a lot of their non-elite colleges and the fees concerned have led to massive, massive problems with education fee related debt in the US, along with a bunch of regulations that says it won't be written off, even in bankruptcy.



Here's the point - I actually really wouldn't mind that. Well I'd mind them drinking it to some extent but that's because I generally think that there are no morally acceptable drinkers to be frank. If it's not alright when you're a student, it's not alright when you're a working person either.

The complaints I have about the university system in Ireland don't generally impact on UCD - but I do consider that a lot of vocational qualifications have been magicked into university degrees which may not be the best approach either for the training concerned or the reputation of having a university degree.

The one policy I would be staunchly against is the introduction of fees. A high level of common education is actually a social good for a lot of different reasons and it should not have an economic barrier per se. However, the structure of how we implement it, and the non-subject driven skills, need to be considered. The one thing people in Ireland sadly lack, across all levels, is critical thinking skills.

Indeed. I paid my way through my undergraduate, got a scholarship for my masters and got funding for a PhD.

Yet I find students who have their parents pay for rent ect saying that students who haven't got parents to pay fees ect shouldn't be in college.

hdowney

I would and will be one of those who will struggle with all the costs associated with going to college. But I want that degree, I want a decent job (please God) and I am going to work and sacrifice for it. There is no other way

I think there has been a lot of generalization going on in this thread, and (I am sorry if this wasn't meant, it is just an undercurrent I picked up) a bit of 'poor folk shouldn't come to college'. Like they are not entitled because they are poor and the costs produce hardship. College should never only be available to the monied folk.

steddyeddy

Yes indeed. I should have clarified that UCD are locking people out of the library who are temporarily unable to pay what is essentially a student union fee. I don't see how the union can stand over this.