Liveline Thread 27/03/14 to date

cream_cracker · 09-04-2014 03:01PM

Stuxnet wrote: »

Im going to re-listen to this later again on podcast with the popcorn, tis mighty today :pac:

im going for a long walk , sh1te like the last hour gets my blood up

signostic · 09-04-2014 03:02PM

Mickey D won`t come home hungry from London at any rate :pac:

pc7 · 09-04-2014 03:04PM

Have to say I know I slag off Live Lahnnnn and only ever tune in for this thread but I really feel that was a great show and about time it was said as it is. All the debating aside what happened to John Joe is an absolute disgrace and whoever is found guilty should have a heavy sentence imposed.

RayM · 09-04-2014 03:05PM

In the interest of balance...

I used to live around the corner from some travellers, and I never heard of them being involved in any kind of anti-social behaviour. They kept their encampment very neat (probably far tidier than it would have been, had they not been there). They seemed like perfectly normal, law-abiding people.

I'm not suggesting that all travellers are like that. Only a f*cking idiot like Brenda Power would make such sweeping generalisations.

AK333 · 09-04-2014 03:06PM

RayM wrote: »

In other words: He's raising some very good points against those who hate travellers.

No, don't misrepresent what I was trying to say.

He was being patronising - you can make a point without talking down to people

Skid X · 09-04-2014 03:07PM

Lapin wrote: »

'Every family has different spats Joe'.

So if I attacked my cousin with a slash hook could I tell the judge it's ok, we have our own way of dealing with things?

The son of Pecker just exonerated Power's argument in 30 seconds and shot down Pavee Point's defence in one sentence.

So to speak.

Well said. Some Travelling people are big fans of the law when they want to claim discrimination or take action against Brenda Power for speaking the truth.

Not so much when it comes to theft and physical violence.

cream_cracker · 09-04-2014 03:10PM

pc7 wrote: »

Have to say I know I slag off Live Lahnnnn and only ever tune in for this thread but I really feel that was a great show and about time it was said as it is. All the debating aside what happened to John Joe is an absolute disgrace and whoever is found guilty should have a heavy sentence imposed.

what do you mean " told it like it is "

most of the time was spent with callers who are paid appologists for travellers

RayM · 09-04-2014 03:10PM

AK333 wrote: »

No, don't misrepresent what I was trying to say.

He was being patronising - you can make a point without talking down to people

He was talking to an imbecile. It's difficult not to sound patronising when you're talking to an imbecile. He raised some very good points. It would have been great to have heard him arguing with Brenda Power.

cream_cracker · 09-04-2014 03:11PM

RayM wrote: »

In the interest of balance...

I used to live around the corner from some travellers, and I never heard of them being involved in any kind of anti-social behaviour. They kept their encampment very neat (probably far tidier than it would have been, had they not been there). They seemed like perfectly normal, law-abiding people.

I'm not suggesting that all travellers are like that. Only a f*cking idiot like Brenda Power would make such sweeping generalisations.

breda power is a fine journalist , just because she,s not a liberal like the vast majority of them , shes treated like a pariah , her article was long over due

bigroad · 09-04-2014 03:11PM

If your finding it difficult to get a commercial vehicle taxed dont worry just tell the lady in the tax office that you from the travelling community and it will be taxed straight away.

cream_cracker · 09-04-2014 03:13PM

RayM wrote: »

He was talking to an imbecile. It's difficult not to sound patronising when you're talking to an imbecile. He raised some very good points. It would have been great to have heard him arguing with Brenda Power.

are you refering to the caller from galway who engage in a little game about accents and how the lady on the other end was displaying prejudice by claiming to be able to recognise a traveller accent

like i said , theese people are happy to play the " indistinguishable " card when it suits them

CarrickMcJoe · 09-04-2014 03:16PM

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Hospital rules go out the window when travellers are around. Hospital staff are afraid to say boo to them.

Was a patient in hospital and a traveller in the same ward had cut tendons in his hand having put it through a car window.
No beds available in St. James so for days he was waiting. His mates used to come in and sleep in the empty bed next to his
He tackled the surgeon as she went past on her rounds. Told her it was her job to get him into St James.
She turned round, looked him straight in the eye and said, "I will not put anybody out of a bed for you!" And walked off.

RayM · 09-04-2014 03:17PM

Rochelle wrote: »

So no kids in front seats of vans, no kids out on the roads in pony-and-traps?

Fair play to them, they must be the only ones in Ireland that don't flout those laws (which the guards turn a blind eye to).

There weren't any pony-and-traps. I've been known to flout the odd road traffic law myself, so I'm not really in a position to judge them on that particular score. They didn't seem to have internet access, so I'm quite certain that they didn't engage in illegal downloading. Although I'm pretty sure I saw one of them jay-walking once.

The bastards.

AK333 · 09-04-2014 03:19PM

RayM wrote: »

He was talking to an imbecile. It's difficult not to sound patronising when you're talking to an imbecile. He raised some very good points. It would have been great to have heard him arguing with Brenda Power.

He was not talking to an imbecile - regardless of how we all here slag off Joe Duffy, he had no right to speak to speak like that. That lady was giving her opinion, we live in a democracy and she's allowed an opinion, regardless of whether you agree with it or not AND I'm not an imbecile, I was listening to him and the earlier shouting down of the man from PP, you can make a point without pontificating and being obnoxious and without the use of a baseball bat.

RayM · 09-04-2014 03:23PM

cream_cracker wrote: »

breda power is a fine journalist , just because she,s not a liberal like the vast majority of them , shes treated like a pariah , her article was long over due

Her article was littered with sweeping generalisations about the travelling community. She's not a fine journalist.

AK333 wrote: »

He was not talking to an imbecile - regardless of how we all here slag off Joe Duffy, he had no right to speak to speak like that. That lady was giving her opinion, we live in a democracy and she's allowed an opinion, regardless of whether you agree with it or not AND I'm not an imbecile, I was listening to him and the earlier shouting down of the man from PP, you can make a point without pontificating and being obnoxious and without the use of a baseball bat.

To me, she came across as a total idiot who hadn't given any thought to what she was going to say on national radio.

cream_cracker · 09-04-2014 03:26PM

RayM wrote: »

Her article was littered with sweeping generalisations about the travelling community. She's not a fine journalist.

To me, she came across as a total idiot who hadn't given any thought to what she was going to say on national radio.

as opposed to the nephew of the pecker dunne ( as he was introduced by joe ) who summarised the attack on john joe nevin as follows

" ah sure every family have their little fights "

powers article detailed extremly common activities in the travelling community , you might feel smug by choosing to ignore theese dysfunctionalities and many of your ilk like in the equality authroity have the neck to make a living potraying the reporting of traveller anti social behaviour as wrong and racist etc

Janedoe10 · 09-04-2014 03:31PM

When will this episode show up on podcast ?

Dan Jaman · 09-04-2014 04:19PM

I know I wanted a change in LL, but a whole fecking hour (anna quarter) about pikeys fighting - that's goolocks, that is.
Bastards on both sides, it must be said.

milewidehead · 09-04-2014 04:42PM

Q. If a white Irish person calls another white Irish person out for their outrageous, anti-social, and downright savage behaviour, how is that racist?.

A. If the person highlighting the behaviour is from the "settled" community and the perpetrators of same are "travellers".

lindascribbler · 09-04-2014 04:48PM

has anyone got link to Brenda Power daily mail article? I trawled mail website but couldn't find it. Maybe someone might be kind enough to post it up so I can read for myself what all the fuss is about

Nody · 09-04-2014 04:50PM

milewidehead wrote: »

Q. If a white Irish person calls another white Irish person out for their outrageous, anti-social, and downright savage behaviour, how is that racist?.

A. If the person highlighting the behaviour is from the "settled" community and the perpetratiors of same are "travellers".

It's racism if you assign a group a certain attribute and say most/everyone from the group has it or because John is from the group he clearly will have the attribute as well. If you on the other hand say John has the attribute because he did X, Y, Z and don't talk about the group as whole it's not racism. The problem most people have is that they have limited interaction with a small sub set of any given group and assign that behaviour to the whole group based on their experience in daily discusion.

As an example. All travellers are thieves = racism. Travellers are over represented in jail (with suitable data to back this up not being a fluke incident) is not racism as long as you don't take it another step and claim that they are thieves because of it. Now some people will claim that the second example is racism as well (and it may be on another level in terms of judges putting more in jail along the lines of the discussion of non white americans in USA) but the claim on it's own is not racist as it's simply stating a fact that can be backed up. The problem is the grey area between the two and people on both side trying to redraw the line in their favour during arguments.

RayM · 09-04-2014 04:53PM

milewidehead wrote: »

Q. If a white Irish person calls another white Irish person out for their outrageous, anti-social, and downright savage behaviour, how is that racist?.

A. If the person highlighting the behaviour is from the "settled" community and the perpetratiors of same are "travellers".

To call a person out on their outrageous, anti-social and downright savage behaviour is not racist. To call an entire group of people out (a group that fulfills the essential characteristics of distinct ethnicity - and ethnicity is not all about skin colour) because of the behaviour of some people, who happen to be members of that group, is racist.

If Brenda Power had made that distinction, rather than smearing all members of the travelling community, people wouldn't be accusing her of being a racist.

hotmail.com · 09-04-2014 05:01PM

Brenda Power has become the Irish version of Katie Hopkins - making money off trolling. Her articles are often filled with hate and this article was no different.

If there was a march against Travellers tomorrow, 100,000 people would show up. March against bankers, em well maybe 2,000.

milewidehead · 09-04-2014 05:19PM

RayM wrote: »

To call a person out on their outrageous, anti-social and downright savage behaviour is not racist. To call an entire group of people out (a group that fulfills the essential characteristics of distinct ethnicity - and ethnicity is not all about skin colour) because of the behaviour of some people, who happen to be members of that group, is racist.

If Brenda Power had made that distinction, rather than smearing all members of the travelling community, people wouldn't be accusing her of being a racist.

I d'ont really buy that argument. I d'ont recall Brenda Power, (no friend of mine), including every single member of the "travelling community" in her admittedly provocative argument.

In any case I was objecting to the over-use and mis-use of the term"racism".
Martin Collins of paveepoint c'ant get two sentences out without using the "R" word. It weakens his arguments, in my opinion. Discrimination, yes. Racism, hardly.

RayM · 09-04-2014 05:43PM

milewidehead wrote: »

I d'ont really buy that argument. I d'ont recall Brenda Power, (no friend of mine), including every single member of the "travelling community" in her admittedly provocative argument.

In any case I was objecting to the over-use and mis-use of the term"racism".
Martin Collins of paveepoint c'ant get two sentences out without using the "R" word. It weakens his arguments, in my opinion. Discrimination, yes. Racism, hardly.

Whether you believe it's racism or not depends on whether you believe that travellers constitute a distinct ethnic group. As I said in my previous post, they fulfill the basic characteristics of ethnicity - something which is officially recognised in other countries, but not in Ireland.

The only way you could legitimately say that the following words aren't racist, is if you deny that travellers are a distinct ethnic group.

"And the media is terrified of appearing critical of 'Traveller Culture', of which feuding is the principle expression these days."

"When they're not beating their own cousins in family rows, they'll also turn their hands to torturing and murdering old folk, and causing mayhem in school playgrounds as they set about one another with lethal weapons."

And if, like Brenda Power, you deny that they are a distinct ethnic group, ask yourself why? Is it because you disagree with the standard accepted definition of an 'ethnic group' - believing instead (and let's make no bones about this, quite wrongly) that ethnicity is solely about skin colour and nationality? Or is it because, like Brenda Power, you believe it would confer 'extra rights' upon them - namely the right not to be subjected to the sort of remarks that she is currently free to make in the Daily Mail?

cream_cracker · 09-04-2014 05:50PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

Brenda Power has become the Irish version of Katie Hopkins - making money off trolling. Her articles are often filled with hate and this article was no different.

If there was a march against Travellers tomorrow, 100,000 people would show up. March against bankers, em well maybe 2,000.

if a journalist ( they do it all the time ) or politican were to generalise about bankers , their wouldnt be a pip out of anyone

its ok to generalise as long as its not about a so called ethinc group

Hitchens · 09-04-2014 05:52PM

This thread is veering away from it's purpose

cream_cracker · 09-04-2014 05:55PM

RayM wrote: »

Whether you believe it's racism or not depends on whether you believe that travellers constitute a distinct ethnic group. As I said in my previous post, they fulfill the basic characteristics of ethnicity - something which is officially recognised in other countries, but not in Ireland.

The only way you could legitimately say that the following words aren't racist, is if you deny that travellers are a distinct ethnic group.

"And the media is terrified of appearing critical of 'Traveller Culture', of which feuding is the principle expression these days."

"When they're not beating their own cousins in family rows, they'll also turn their hands to torturing and murdering old folk, and causing mayhem in school playgrounds as they set about one another with lethal weapons."

And if, like Brenda Power, you deny that they are a distinct ethnic group, ask yourself why? Is it because you disagree with the standard accepted definition of an 'ethnic group' - believing instead (and let's make no bones about this, quite wrongly) that ethnicity is solely about skin colour and nationality? Or is it because, like Brenda Power, you believe it would confer 'extra rights' upon them - namely the right not to be subjected to the sort of remarks that she is currently free to make in the Daily Mail?

i believe that the kind of folk who granted travellers a distinct ethinc identity are the cut from the same cloth as the so called equality authority

i couldnt give a fig for the opinion of these people , they represent no one but ivory tower do gooders like themselves , they are unelected busy bodies , salary drawing frauds who dishonestly claim moral supreriority

and even travellers were in the main black and muslim , their is a chronic level of criminality and anti social activity within that community so the race thing is a red herring , power was no doubt inspired to write about this due to the very silent reporting of the beating of john joe nevin by other travellers

what we are witnessing now with brenda power is an attempt to completley gag journalists when it comes to travellers

the likes of the equality authority are an enemy of free speech

Nody · 09-04-2014 05:56PM

Hitchens wrote: »

This thread is veering away from it's purpose

Correct and I helped drive it in that direction. Lets hope tomorrow is a less heated topic

.

//MOD
While the topic of racism and travellers is a very important one lets try to limit the discussion going forward to the show itself and limit the turn off topic.
//MOD

P. Breathnach · 09-04-2014 06:06PM

cream_cracker wrote: »

... their is a chronic level of criminality and anti social activity within that community...

That might be true, but it does not justify condemning all of the community.

I have encountered travellers (on the road. settled, and part-settled) that seem to me to be law-abiding and not at all anti-social. It is unfair that they be tarred with the same brush that is applied to other travellers whose behaviour is less worthy. Not only is it unfair: it is counter-productive, because the properly-behaved travellers are not given a chance to prove themselves good citizens and good neighbours.

Liveline Thread 27/03/14 to date

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