Salary of a Lecturer

ardmacha · 01-04-2014 03:52PM

chopper6 wrote: »

Study and become one then.

Or maybe you think uneducated idiots should be teaching our students?

I think you may be doing the poster an injustice. Perhaps he/she wants highly educated people teaching students, just that they are paid the same as uneducated people.

barneystinson · 01-04-2014 05:16PM

chopper6 wrote: »

Study and become one then.

Or maybe you think uneducated idiots should be teaching our students?

So chopper, is it fair to say that in your opinion no-one in the public sector is overpaid?

I'm not expressing an opinion either way on this by the way, just curious that you leap to the defence of the entire public sector every time the pay of any part of it is raised as an issue...

chopper6 · 01-04-2014 05:27PM

barneystinson wrote: »

So chopper, is it fair to say that in your opinion no-one in the public sector is overpaid?

I'm not expressing an opinion either way on this by the way, just curious that you leap to the defence of the entire public sector every time the pay of any part of it is raised as an issue...

I just fail to see why people in the public sector are constantly being vilified as overpaid by people who have no actual idea what they do.

It seems to me to be a typical example of irish begrudgery,seasoned with ignorance and envy.

sarumite · 01-04-2014 05:37PM

chopper6 wrote: »

I just fail to see why people in the public sector are constantly being vilified as overpaid by people who have no actual idea what they do.

It seems to me to be a typical example of irish begrudgery,seasoned with ignorance and envy.

Do you know what they do?

maguic24 · 01-04-2014 05:45PM

Most if not all lecturers have PHD's. Try living on minimum wage (granted they don't pay tax) for 4 or 5 years AFTER you have already completed an undergraduate degree!! Trying to do a PHD is stressful and soul destroying when you see your friends from college working in industry making way more money than you!!

I think lecturers deserve the wages they FINALLY get, most of them do a lot more work than just giving lectures. A lot of them work with PHD students and final year students on projects etc, as well as trying to do their own research work during the summer months.

And no, I'm not a PHD student but I have friends who did do PHD's and I don't envy them! Fair play to them, I couldn't do it!

BuilderPlumber · 01-04-2014 05:47PM

It can range from €25 per week to €2500+ per week depending on a lot of things like number of hours, grade of course, etc.. It is by and large a very poorly paid and unstable profession for most but the lucky few who are at the very top.

robp · 01-04-2014 06:21PM

sarumite wrote: »

Do you know what they do?

A good example of these harmful misconceptions is the idea that lecturers only work part time as they are not teaching all day long.

sarumite · 01-04-2014 06:26PM

maguic24 wrote: »

Most if not all lecturers have PHD's. Try living on minimum wage (granted they don't pay tax) for 4 or 5 years AFTER you have already completed an undergraduate degree!! Trying to do a PHD is stressful and soul destroying when you see your friends from college working in industry making way more money than you!!

I think lecturers deserve the wages they FINALLY get, most of them do a lot more work than just giving lectures. A lot of them work with PHD students and final year students on projects etc, as well as trying to do their own research work during the summer months.

And no, I'm not a PHD student but I have friends who did do PHD's and I don't envy them! Fair play to them, I couldn't do it!

It is not soul destroying, but it certainly is stressful. I was never rich, but I wasn't struggling either. The reality is that young lecturers will be working very long hours writing grants, managing post docs and PhD students while also teaching whereas their older established colleagues can do the absolute bare minimum if they so choose (some will, others will not). The real problem in Irish Universities is this imbalance between the expectations of those who are young and those who are experienced.

Godge · 01-04-2014 07:04PM

barneystinson wrote: »

So chopper, is it fair to say that in your opinion no-one in the public sector is overpaid?

I'm not expressing an opinion either way on this by the way, just curious that you leap to the defence of the entire public sector every time the pay of any part of it is raised as an issue...

Quite clearly there are some people in the public sector who are overpaid. But who are you comparing them to? They may be overpaid relative to similar jobs in the public service in Zimbabwe and underpaid relative to similar jobs in the private sector in Ireland. It is easy to criticise and you can find figures to back that up and it is easy to defend and you can find figures to back that up.

That is why these threads and debates go round and round in circles.

Wouldn't it be much better if we could have a civilised discussion around the factors to be taken into account, job size, organisation size, pension, bonus, car, VHI etc. and the private sector comparators or other public service comparators.

chopper6 wrote: »

I just fail to see why people in the public sector are constantly being vilified as overpaid by people who have no actual idea what they do.

It seems to me to be a typical example of irish begrudgery,seasoned with ignorance and envy.

I understand where you are coming from, but as I explain above, there are some legitimate questions about pay rates in parts of the public sector but the reasons for disparity need to be explained. For example, is it right that a clerical officer type role in an insurance company be paid the same as a clerical officer type role in a social welfare office? Do we want to pay a bit more for the social welfare office as it is important to society to get the best people so that social welfare entitlements are accurate and the state doesn't get robbed and/or people get their full entitlements? Or do we want to pay a bit less for other reasons?

Rather than getting on high horses, maybe once in a while there could be a discussion about fair methods of pay determination in the public sector (and I don't mean slash them all or we have taken enough cuts).

buiscuit2168 · 02-04-2014 07:23AM

maguic24 wrote: »

Most if not all lecturers have PHD's. Try living on minimum wage (granted they don't pay tax) for 4 or 5 years AFTER you have already completed an undergraduate degree!! Trying to do a PHD is stressful and soul destroying when you see your friends from college working in industry making way more money than you!!

I think lecturers deserve the wages they FINALLY get, most of them do a lot more work than just giving lectures. A lot of them work with PHD students and final year students on projects etc, as well as trying to do their own research work during the summer months.

And no, I'm not a PHD student but I have friends who did do PHD's and I don't envy them! Fair play to them, I couldn't do it!

I think lecturer's are probably paid fairly, its secondary school teachers who obtained their HDip with and arts degree, before anyone says they are highly educated, I am not belittling Arts degrees, trying to highlight you don't need to be Einstein to become a teacher. Lectures on the other hand will hold a Msc a Phd, constantly doing research and writing papers. I know both and the lecturers are not of the opinion of entitlement.

BuilderPlumber · 02-04-2014 08:25AM

lovetheanimals wrote: »

I think lecturer's are probably paid fairly, its secondary school teachers who obtained their HDip with and arts degree, before anyone says they are highly educated, I am not belittling Arts degrees, trying to highlight you don't need to be Einstein to become a teacher. Lectures on the other hand will hold a Msc a Phd, constantly doing research and writing papers. I know both and the lecturers are not of the opinion of entitlement.

People who write academic documents are imo not really lecturers even though this is what they are called. Many of these are 100% working as researchers and that is the proper term but they will not ever call themselves that as it is not very prestigeous! Real lecturers teach classes and prepare lecture notes, but that title has been hijacked by those doing research.

But, whether they teach classes or write academic documents, does not guarantee their pay. Some are very poorly paid with only few hours per week and from term to term or project to project. Others are certainly on obscene money while more again get involved in projects and are nearly self employed. No one gets paid for writing lecture notes or other preparation.

Like barristers, the lecturing (and academic research) profession is one of extreme incomes. We often in both hear of the huge money made by some but it would be wrong to assume all earn money like that. Secondary teachers are the same. Some get very few part time hours and some earn good money but it would not be excessively high.

As for cushy jobs where people get paid well for little to do. Try local councillors or TDs in insignificant areas!

Bits_n_Bobs · 07-04-2014 04:41PM

chopper6 wrote: »

Study and become one then.

Or maybe you think uneducated idiots should be teaching our students?

I thought we kept our uneducated idiots in the dail?

Brussels Sprout · 09-04-2014 12:16PM

chopper6 wrote: »

Study and become one then.

I've seen this retort thrown around quite a bit in this forum. It's a kind of non argument. The equivalent of a child saying "i know you are but what am I?".

It's deflection.

TimeToShine · 09-04-2014 12:24PM

What people seem to be forgetting is that lecturers in the main Universities are primarily researchers with lecturing as a supplement to that. This is why you get lazy lecturers and although I agree it's inexcusable I completely understand it. Why would you enjoy teaching a bunch of runts fresh out of the LC when you could be researching a cutting edge topic or writing a paper on something that hasn't been done before?

Good "lecturers", that is to say lecturers with a significant number of publications or a high n-index, are not teachers. They are researchers. They most likely exceeded in the LC, were probably top of their class at undergraduate level (a feat in itself in many disciplines) and then chose to do a 4 year PhD at minimum wage before getting to where they are now. Comparing them to teachers in primary or secondary level is ludicrous. I don't mean to be condescending but in comparison to lecturers teachers are just bunch of mediocre students from a young age scraping a 2.1 or a 2.2 and then banging out a H.Dip. I respect them but their salary should not be anywhere near that of an established lecturer.

chopper6 · 09-04-2014 12:25PM

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I've seen this retort thrown around quite a bit in this forum. It's a kind of non argument. The equivalent of a child saying "i know you are but what am I?".

It's deflection.

No it isn't...if people think somebody gets paid too much without knowing exactly what their job entails i recommend they should join the ranks of that profession and then comment.

I fail to see why some people are obsessing about the wages earned by others anyway,it's like neighbours envying each others' curtains.

TimeToShine · 09-04-2014 12:45PM

chopper6 wrote: »

No it isn't...if people think somebody gets paid too much without knowing exactly what their job entails i recommend they should join the ranks of that profession and then comment.

I fail to see why some people are obsessing about the wages earned by others anyway,it's like neighbours envying each others' curtains.

Something about tax i'm sure?

chopper6 · 09-04-2014 12:55PM

TimeToShine wrote: »

Something about tax i'm sure?

Do lecturers not pay any?

sarumite · 09-04-2014 01:14PM

chopper6 wrote: »

No it isn't...if people think somebody gets paid too much without knowing exactly what their job entails i recommend they should join the ranks of that profession and then comment.

I fail to see why some people are obsessing about the wages earned by others anyway,it's like neighbours envying each others' curtains.

So I guess we can't complain about politicians salaries unless we are politicains right? And how dare anyone question the bonus of bankers unless they themselves are a banker and of course commenting on the greed of private landlords without being a private landlord would be pure ludicrous behavior!!!

creedp · 09-04-2014 01:30PM

sarumite wrote: »

So I guess we can't complain about politicians salaries unless we are politicains right? And how dare anyone question the bonus of bankers unless they themselves are a banker and of course commenting on the greed of private landlords without being a private landlord would be pure ludicrous behavior!!!

Maybe we should focus more on the increasing lack of competiveness due to ongoing wage increases in the private sector?

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/deteriorating-competitiveness-threatening-recovery-1.1745886

sarumite · 09-04-2014 01:34PM

creedp wrote: »

Maybe we should focus more on the increasing lack of competiveness due to ongoing wage increases in the private sector?

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/deteriorating-competitiveness-threatening-recovery-1.1745886

Ok

Not really sure why you think that is relevant to my post?

Geuze · 09-04-2014 01:37PM

TimeToShine wrote: »

What people seem to be forgetting is that lecturers in the main Universities are primarily researchers with lecturing as a supplement to that. This is why you get lazy lecturers and although I agree it's inexcusable I completely understand it. Why would you enjoy teaching a bunch of runts fresh out of the LC when you could be researching a cutting edge topic or writing a paper on something that hasn't been done before?

Good "lecturers", that is to say lecturers with a significant number of publications or a high n-index, are not teachers. They are researchers. They most likely exceeded in the LC, were probably top of their class at undergraduate level (a feat in itself in many disciplines) and then chose to do a 4 year PhD at minimum wage before getting to where they are now. Comparing them to teachers in primary or secondary level is ludicrous. I don't mean to be condescending but in comparison to lecturers teachers are just bunch of mediocre students from a young age scraping a 2.1 or a 2.2 and then banging out a H.Dip. I respect them but their salary should not be anywhere near that of an established lecturer.

Yes, they are different jobs, really.

A lecturer/researcher is really a very different job to a primary/secondary teacher.

However, this is not a reason for lower pay.

The teacher can make a huge contribution to society, and affect many more young people than some lecturers/researchers ever will.

I would feel that a principal of a large school deserves as much pay as a professor.

creedp · 09-04-2014 01:38PM

sarumite wrote: »

Ok Not really sure why you think that is relevant to my post?

I was simply addding to the 3 categories you referred to earlier

So I guess we can't complain about politicians salaries unless we are politicains right? And how dare anyone question the bonus of bankers unless they themselves are a banker and of course commenting on the greed of private landlords without being a private landlord would be pure ludicrous behavior!!!

chopper6 · 09-04-2014 01:44PM

sarumite wrote: »

commenting on the greed of private landlords without being a private landlord would be pure ludicrous behavior!!!

I wasnt aware that lecturers have the power to increase thier earnings by 20% merely by sending a letter?

sarumite · 09-04-2014 01:46PM

creedp wrote: »

I was simply addding to the 3 categories you referred to earlier

I didn't list 3 catogories. I listed three job titles.

sarumite · 09-04-2014 01:47PM

chopper6 wrote: »

I wasnt aware that lecturers have the power to increase thier earnings by 20% merely by sending a letter?

non-sequitor

chopper6 · 09-04-2014 01:48PM

sarumite wrote: »

I didn't list 3 catogories. I listed three job titles.

"Politician" isn't a job title....

TimeToShine · 09-04-2014 02:37PM

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, they are different jobs, really.

A lecturer/researcher is really a very different job to a primary/secondary teacher.

However, this is not a reason for lower pay.

The teacher can make a huge contribution to society, and affect many more young people than some lecturers/researchers ever will.

I would feel that a principal of a large school deserves as much pay as a professor.

Your first point works both ways. Bad teachers can affect students very badly and if you look nationwide I guarantee you there are more poor teachers than there are very good ones. Also, if a researcher is not showing results/publications or some form of progress he'll have his funding rescinded. Poor teachers are allowed to teach for decades on end without getting fired. You cannot be fired from teaching for incompetence. If we compare lecturers to teachers in private schools then you have a fair point but your run of the mill teacher is certainly unlikely to "contribute" to society any more than the guy/girl he got the job ahead of. Teachers are queuing up at schools all over the country because of the allure of all the holidays and a supposedly "easy" job. There's a reason why the standards are poor.

As for the principal point, I hope you're joking. The principal can do sweet f all with regards to firing teachers for incompetence. Not a cushy job by any means depending on the school but still nowhere near deserving of as much pay as someone who has devoted their life to academia.

robp · 09-04-2014 02:49PM

TimeToShine wrote: »

As for the principal point, I hope you're joking. The principal can do sweet f all with regards to firing teachers for incompetence. Not a cushy job by any means depending on the school but still nowhere near deserving of as much pay as someone who has devoted their life to academia.

I'm neutral on this point but the current situation is that they do overlap. I am certain that some principals would be earning salaries that over lap with the low to mid range of a professor scale.

sarumite · 09-04-2014 02:51PM

chopper6 wrote: »

"Politician" isn't a job title....

I assume you forgot to add a ':P' to that satement.

creedp · 09-04-2014 02:53PM

sarumite wrote: »

I didn't list 3 catogories. I listed three job titles.

How is 'private landlord' a job title?

Salary of a Lecturer

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