The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education.

steddyeddy · 07-04-2014 12:39AM #1

The title is a quote attributed to Albert Einstein. Him alongside scientists like Richard Feynman or John Gurdon (Nobel prize winners) disliked the way the education system was run. They thought that it relied too much on rote learning rather than encouraging kids to be creative, engage in problem solving and ask why in general. Many of these geniuses had horrible times at school and were called stupid or dumb. Albert Einstein said:

Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid

Is school today too much about rote learning and not about teaching kids to think for themselves or is the system working? Is doing well at school a sign of intelligence and is doing badly at school mean you're not meant for academia?

I personally think the leaving cert is the biggest load of toss going. I don't think 600 points says anything other than you work hard and have a good memory. I think publishing a paper or discovering something is more indicative of intelligence.

Muise... · 07-04-2014 12:42AM

I despair at Einstein quote-memes being used to back up all kinds of anti-school/system cobblers. You didn't like school? Grand. Most of us disliked aspects of growing up; it's not an easy thing to do. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, because that's a sign of very low intelligence.

steddyeddy · 07-04-2014 12:45AM

Muise... wrote: »

I despair at Einstein quote-memes being used to back up all kinds of anti-school/system cobblers. You didn't like school? Grand. Most of us disliked aspects of growing up; it's not an easy thing to do. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, because that's a sign of very low intelligence.

I'm not anti school. I'm anti fixed curriculum and pro new ideas. We need a schooling system IMO.

Muise... · 07-04-2014 12:49AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm not anti school. I'm anti fixed curriculum and pro new ideas. We need a schooling system IMO.

Maybe we need better teachers and better students, who will actually do a bit of heavy work instead of insisting on a precious snowflake schooling?

I had the usual formal education and never once did it stifle my curiosity, problem solving or creativity. People who have these traits should be well able to apply them to the current system. Otherwise they're probably not as genius as Einstein or other rebels they like to foist their cause on.

steddyeddy · 07-04-2014 12:49AM

Muise... wrote: »

I despair at Einstein quote-memes being used to back up all kinds of anti-school/system cobblers. You didn't like school? Grand. Most of us disliked aspects of growing up; it's not an easy thing to do. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, because that's a sign of very low intelligence.

By the way you missed the sentiment entirely. Not liking school isn't the crux of the matter. None of these people were recognised as brilliant in school and that's the point of the matter.

tomwaterford · 07-04-2014 12:50AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm not anti school. I'm anti fixed curriculum and pro new ideas. We need a schooling system IMO.

the only issue is you need a fixed curriculum to test people at the end...otherwise youd end up with a mish-mash of different standreds of people coming out every year
I hated it myself...felt most to all was pointless....it was just lucky I left school during the boom and managed to get a trade...I would despair for people like me who are leaving school now and wouldn't be able to hack collage:mad::mad:

steddyeddy · 07-04-2014 12:51AM

Muise... wrote: »

Maybe we need better teachers and better students, who will actually do a bit of heavy work instead of insisting on a precious snowflake schooling?

I had the usual formal education and never once did it stifle my curiosity, problem solving or creativity. People who have these traits should be well able to apply them to the current system. Otherwise they're probably not as genius as Einstein or other rebels they like to foist their cause on.

I think the creativity comes first followed by the hard work. I'm a scientist and my creativity was stifled at school. My first job as a scientist is come up with a question. Then the hard work follows.

07-04-2014 12:52AM

I feel let down by the education system. Autumn was only explained to me for 6 years in a row, I think another couple of years and I would understand why all the trees keep dying.

steddyeddy · 07-04-2014 12:52AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

the only issue is you need a fixed curriculum to test people at the end...otherwise youd end up with a mish-mash of different standreds of people coming out every year
I hated it myself...felt most to all was pointless....it was just lucky I left school during the boom and managed to get a trade...I would despair for people like me who are leaving school now and wouldn't be able to hack collage:mad::mad:

College can be very different from school Tom. A lot of people who are told they're not college material based on their school performance were lied to to say the least.

steddyeddy · 07-04-2014 12:54AM

John Gurdon Nobel prize winner was told this by one of his teachers:

"I believe he has ideas about becoming a scientist; on his present showing this is quite ridiculous."

Dr.Gurdon later contributed massively to our knowledge of stem cells.

Muise... · 07-04-2014 12:55AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

By the way you missed the sentiment entirely. Not liking school isn't the crux of the matter. None of these people were recognised as brilliant in school and that's the point of the matter.

Who is recognised as brilliant at school? And if they are, would that not be a disadvantage? I was crazy precocious - but that's all it was, I was an unusually quick learner for my age. Thank fcuk I wasn't set aside as a "genius" because everyone caught up later and I'd have been slow to develop social and emotional intelligence. School should be about standards; as they are understood, creativity can flourish.

Also, I'm crap at sports, but I got though PE in school and don't go round looking for an overhaul because it didn't suit me.

tomwaterford · 07-04-2014 12:57AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

College can be very different from school Tom. A lot of people who are told they're not college material based on their school performance were lied to to say the least.

I hope so for the people leaving...I was going to do computer science:eek:..

I remember going to career advice meeting in school and your wan told me I wouldn't be going to collage and just handed leaflets to me on apprenticeships!!(I may have been disruptful little sh1t in my youth)

its not that I was thick...its just I had no interest in being there after 14 years in school I felt like a change:D

even when I in FAS I used be pissed off after the 10 weeks

Burky126 · 07-04-2014 12:59AM

Modern public education is nothing more than an assembly line. Getting kids to regurgitate information without much logical foundation so that they can be easily absorbed into the working class without protest.

The classroom is a blueprint of the society we enter. Intellectual discovery is scorned, mindless gossip is all the talk and authority is both irrational and useless at times but always out to put you under thumb. It's preparation.

This is why I hate the term 'genius.' Like the Einstein's quote explains,we all have geniuses but broad definitions don't do the smart kids or the kids who have a lack of potential in mathematical or spatial I.Q. justice.The school system re-enforces this. Hence,we get apathetic adults and society as a result.

Call Me Jimmy · 07-04-2014 01:00AM

For some subjects already there is subjective marking am I right? Say an english short story, that is done through standardised marking but is creative so I don't see how there is an issue with placing more emphasis on creativity while retaining standards?

steddyeddy · 07-04-2014 01:00AM

Muise... wrote: »

Who is recognised as brilliant at school? And if they are, would that not be a disadvantage? I was crazy precocious - but that's all it was, I was an unusually quick learner for my age. Thank fcuk I wasn't set aside as a "genius" because everyone caught up later and I'd have been slow to develop social and emotional intelligence. School should be about standards; as they are understood, creativity can flourish.

Also, I'm crap at sports, but I got though PE in school and don't go round looking for an overhaul because it didn't suit me.

You doing badly at something you are bad at and a nobel prize winning scientist doing badly at science are two very different things. You're missing the point completely.

Muise... · 07-04-2014 01:01AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think the creativity comes first followed by the hard work. I'm a scientist and my creativity was stifled at school. My first job as a scientist is come up with a question. Then the hard work follows.

We're at cross-purposes then. How do you find your question if you haven't been shown the information/material/field which begs your question?

BTW I don't think the info.-creative process is, or should be, sequential in an imposed, curricular way. It's an iterative loop that can happen many times a day, never mind a school year.

steddyeddy · 07-04-2014 01:02AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

I hope so for the people leaving...I was going to do computer science:eek:..

I remember going to career advice meeting in school and your wan told me I wouldn't be going to collage and just handed leaflets to me on apprenticeships!!(I may have been disruptful little sh1t in my youth)

its not that I was thick...its just I had no interest in being there after 14 years in school I felt like a change:D

even when I in FAS I used be pissed off after the 10 weeks

As a scientist and someone who loves to promote science I hope you're career advisor gets a battering. You had an interest and she should have fostered it.

Frank Lee Midere · 07-04-2014 01:03AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

By the way you missed the sentiment entirely. Not liking school isn't the crux of the matter. None of these people were recognised as brilliant in school and that's the point of the matter.

I found this on Feynman:

Feynman attended Far Rockaway High School, a school also attended by fellow laureates Burton Richter and Baruch Samuel Blumberg.[19] A member of the Arista Honor Society, in his last year in high school Feynman won the New York University Math Championship; the large difference between his score and those of his closest competitors shocked the judges.

The rest of the claims are probably equally spurious.

In any case "rote learning" is necessary in many subjects - try teaching biology or geography without it, and learning facts is important in others. History for instance.

Despite the rants against "rote" the system produced Shakespeare and Feynman. You can't really teach creativity. If people are good at something that will manifest somehow.

By and large if you weren't that good at school and you didn't become creative it was because you aren't either smart or creative.

steddyeddy · 07-04-2014 01:04AM

Muise... wrote: »

We're at cross-purposes then. How do you find your question if you haven't been shown the information/material/field which begs your question?

BTW I don't think the info.-creative process is, or should be, sequential in an imposed, curricular way. It's an iterative loop that can happen many times a day, never mind a school year.

It's all around me. I'm looking out at the moon right now and notice that the light it reflects from the sun looks distorted from the glass of my window. I could ask why that is. I don't need prior information to ask it.

Davarus Walrus · 07-04-2014 01:05AM

The quality of graduate being fired out of the 3rd level education system in Ireland at the moment is of a very poor standard. Too many teenagers going to college as a rite of passage. Courses that were created to justify Celtic Tiger era funding. Student unions justifying the very actions that are making their members less employable.

I work in the electrical engineering/software development area. Aside from UL, there is no college producing in Ireland producing graduates of the standard required to take up an entry level job in this niche area. A very profitable and challenging career. Many of the interviewees that arrive into us have no core skills, but do have an overwhelming sense of entitlement. We cannot move more R+D over to Ireland unless we have a better calibre of graduate. Core R&D is still taking place in the US.

Students are protesting against the very changes that would make them more employable. Madness.

Muise... · 07-04-2014 01:05AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

It's all around me. I'm looking out at the moon right now and notice that the light it reflects from the sun looks distorted from the glass of my window. I could ask why that is. I don't need prior information to ask it.

You do; you have visual information.

steddyeddy · 07-04-2014 01:05AM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

I found this on Feynman:

Feynman attended Far Rockaway High School, a school also attended by fellow laureates Burton Richter and Baruch Samuel Blumberg.[19] A member of the Arista Honor Society, in his last year in high school Feynman won the New York University Math Championship; the large difference between his score and those of his closest competitors shocked the judges.

The rest of the claims are probably equally spurious.

In any case "rote learning" is necessary in many subjects - try teaching biology or geography without it, and learning facts is important in others. History for instance.

Despite the rants against "rote" the system produced Shakespeare and Feynman. You can't really teach creativity. If people are good at something that will manifest somehow.

By and large if you weren't that good at school and you didn't become creative it was because you aren't either smart or creative.

I never said Feynman did badly at school. I said he maintained education was taught wrong. Einstein also did well at school but many scientists didn't.

steddyeddy · 07-04-2014 01:07AM

Muise... wrote: »

You do; you have visual information.

Right and I found I discovered that information myself. I wasn't educated in that regard nor was the information presented to me.

tomwaterford · 07-04-2014 01:07AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

As a scientist and someone who loves to promote science I hope you're career advisor gets a battering. You had an interest and she should have fostered it.

agh she was probily right...I was terrible at languages (failed ord English in mocks)...but could manage higher math,chemistry and physics:o

and was severly just sick of school and its rules/homework the whole time after 14 years and to voluntary do 4 more years...

I probily wouldn't have stuck at it anyway...and couldn't realistically afford to have lived in Dublin at height of boom...on the grant

though I got massively lucky in that fell into a job I love:D

Frank Lee Midere · 07-04-2014 01:08AM

Burky126 wrote: »

Modern public education is nothing more than an assembly line. Getting kids to regurgitate information without much logical foundation so that they can be easily absorbed into the working class without protest.

The classroom is a blueprint of the society we enter. Intellectual discovery is scorned, mindless gossip is all the talk and authority is both irrational and useless at times but always out to put you under thumb. It's preparation.

This is why I hate the term 'genius.' Like the Einstein's quote explains,we all have geniuses but broad definitions don't do the smart kids or the kids who have a lack of potential in mathematical or spatial I.Q. justice.The school system re-enforces this. Hence,we get apathetic adults and society as a result.

No. Einstein - if he even said that - was being coy about his own genius. We are not all geniuses. There are very few geniuses.

And it's easy to avoid mathematical subjects in the Irish system ( except maths itself). And it is these very scientific subjects which are the exact opposite of rote.

Jimoslimos · 07-04-2014 01:08AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The title is a quote attributed to Albert Einstein. Him alongside scientists like Richard Feynman or John Gurdon (Nobel prize winners) disliked the way the education system was run. They thought that it relied too much on rote learning rather than encouraging kids to be creative, engage in problem solving and ask why in general. Many of these geniuses had horrible times at school and were called stupid or dumb.

Key example of confirmation bias here. Most "geniuses" perform well academically, there may be one or two exceptions but in general they are rarely called stupid or dumb and usually can be found towards the higher percentile range of exam scores.

Encouraging kids to be free-thinking sounds like a fantastic idea in theory but in truth most would struggle (genius or not) without some sort of structured learning, especially for the sciences. Of course that's not saying the syllabus shouldn't be reviewed on a regular basis.

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think publishing a paper or discovering something is more indicative of intelligence.

Come back to me when you've had the pleasure of reading some pure awful published papers.

steddyeddy · 07-04-2014 01:08AM

Put it this way guys. Science in UCD has rocketed to 500 points in the last year or two. It was over 200 points around ten years ago. Are we producing better scientists now or was the extra points indicative of nothing only rote learning ability.

Turtwig · 07-04-2014 01:09AM

Einstein likely never said anything about judging fish. People insist on attributing quotes to him because there's something mythical about him that seemingly carries authority and truth. Weird but that's the way it is.

Education is very much caught in the past. It hasn't changed at all really. It does need to change and so do attitudes. A person will happily spend ages to prep for a marathon. Yet when it comes to stuff like mathematics it's accepted that the aptitude isn't there. That people with 'math brains' have natural talent or some other nonsense. In general, this applies to many facets of society and education never really configured itself to combat those myths. Things are changing though and the best way to learn is with the help and guidance of others while you make mistakes. Whatever system incorporates that is in my mind education. Career factory it should never be.

tomwaterford · 07-04-2014 01:12AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Put it this way guys. Science in UCD has rocketed to 500 points in the last year or two. It was over 200 points around ten years ago. Are we producing better scientists now or was the extra points indicative of nothing only rote learning ability.

the points indicate the popularity of the course AFAIK

it is handed out from highest to lowest ranking in points

this would say the science course is more popular now than ten years ago...not necessary that its producing better scientists (it should as imo someone with 500 points is inevitably going to be smarter than someone with 200 points)

steddyeddy · 07-04-2014 01:12AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Key example of confirmation bias here. Most "geniuses" perform well academically, there may be one or two exceptions but in general they are rarely called stupid or dumb and usually can be found towards the higher percentile range of exam scores.

Encouraging kids to be free-thinking sounds like a fantastic idea in theory but in truth most would struggle (genius or not) without some sort of structured learning, especially for the sciences. Of course that's not saying the syllabus shouldn't be reviewed on a regular basis.

Come back to me when you've had the pleasure of reading some pure awful published papers.

Actually it doesn't take genius or brains to do well in the current leaving cert. It takes rote learning. That's the point. We need less of it. I have read awful papers it's sort of my job thanks.

Encourage kids to ask questions is important imo.

Frank Lee Midere · 07-04-2014 01:12AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

It's all around me. I'm looking out at the moon right now and notice that the light it reflects from the sun looks distorted from the glass of my window. I could ask why that is. I don't need prior information to ask it.

I presume you would come up with the mathematics to describe that phenonomon yourself without recourse to anything taught at school. Being your own Euclid, and Newton.

Or did some of this knowledge have to be imparted to you.

The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education.

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