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Barcelona receive two window transfer embargo

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Comments

  • #92
    NTMK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭NTMK


    gimmick wrote: »
    Sure that argument is specious at best. not like lives are being endangered. Quite the opposite. The youngsters get to study the game as well as get a proper education should their football career fall apart.

    I think that is why the say Mes Que Un Club tbh because they offer scholarships.

    what happens when a purge of le masia happens and 80 odd kids are released as what happened 8-10 years ago do barca still look after them or do they do what every other club does and say youre on your own. this is one of the reasons why this law exists


  • #93
    gimmick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,296 ✭✭✭✭gimmick


    NTMK wrote: »
    what happens when a purge of le masia happens and 80 odd kids are released as what happened 8-10 years ago do barca still look after them or do they do what every other club does and say your on your own. this is one of the reasons why this law exists

    That is why they are given a full and proper education in La Masia, so they have a fall back should they not make the grade or get injured.


  • #94
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Jelle1880


    NTMK wrote: »
    what happens when a purge of le masia happens and 80 odd kids are released as what happened 8-10 years ago do barca still look after them or do they do what every other club does and say youre on your own. this is one of the reasons why this law exists

    Barcelona have agreements with local clubs for players who are not ready yet for La Masia, they give money, training, advice,... to them.

    I assume (although I don't know) that if a player doesn't make it at Barcelona one of those clubs may pick him up.


  • #95
    RasTa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,111 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    gimmick wrote: »
    That is why they are given a full and proper education in La Masia, so they have a fall back should they not make the grade or get injured.

    lol, trust me if the kid is crap at school and brilliant at football he still passes.

    You see it all the time over in the states. Barca's excuse is laughable and the punishment should stand.


  • #96
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Jelle1880


    RasTa wrote: »
    lol, trust me if the kid is crap at school and brilliant at football he still passes.

    You see it all the time over in the states. Barca's excuse is laughable and the punishment should stand.

    Erm, obviously ? If he's brilliant a football he'll make it in one of Barcelona's teams. ;)


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  • #97
    RasTa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,111 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Jelle1880 wrote: »
    Erm, obviously ? If he's brilliant a football he'll make it in one of Barcelona's teams. ;)

    Just at youth level, crashes and burns out by 20 and back to Africa with no real prospects only to commit suicide 2 years later.

    Barca are now killing children!


  • #98
    NTMK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭NTMK


    gimmick wrote: »
    That is why they are given a full and proper education in La Masia, so they have a fall back should they not make the grade or get injured.

    so if they released at 13-15 its considered a full education?
    Jelle1880 wrote: »
    Barcelona have agreements with local clubs for players who are not ready yet for La Masia, they give money, training, advice,... to them.

    I assume (although I don't know) that if a player doesn't make it at Barcelona one of those clubs may pick him up.

    Every club runs a similar set up but theres a difference between shipping him to a feeder/partner club and releasing and the law is there to protect kids from say (for example) an argentine slum being brought to spain and then release them a couple months later


  • #99
    gimmick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,296 ✭✭✭✭gimmick


    NTMK wrote: »
    so if they released at 13-15 its considered a full education?

    To that stage of their life, yes. They will be no better or worse off than any other 13-15 year old of their age.


  • #100
    bad2dabone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,333 ✭✭✭bad2dabone


    gimmick wrote: »
    To that stage of their life, yes. They will be no better or worse off than any other 13-15 year old of their age.

    Regardless of what you think of the rule, the rule is in place and Barca broke it.
    Just like they misled the authorities on their taxes and had to make a settlement of 13m this season before it went too far.
    Just like they lied blatantly about the Neymar transfer.

    Does any other club – sorry, more than a club – operate in such a blatant and underhanded way as to be caught with their hands dirty three times in the one season?
    No.

    Barca are as dodgy an outfit as I’ve ever seen. Their reputation as an organisation, quite rightly, lies in tatters.


  • #101
    NTMK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭NTMK


    gimmick wrote: »
    To that stage of their life, yes. They will be no better or worse off than any other 13-15 year old of their age.

    and you think its aceptable to release a 13-15 year old to re-organise his life in what is a foreign country to him?


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  • #102
    gimmick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,296 ✭✭✭✭gimmick


    NTMK wrote: »
    and you think its aceptable to release a 13-15 year old to re-organise his life in what is a foreign country to him?

    Their parents have to take some responsibility as well. They know the risks involved.


  • #103
    batistuta9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,540 ✭✭✭batistuta9


    gimmick wrote: »
    To that stage of their life, yes. They will be no better or worse off than any other 13-15 year old of their age.

    Except miles from home


  • #104
    titan18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,057 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    gimmick wrote: »
    Pretty sure that if anyone from any club were taking PEDs they would have been caught by a piss test at this stage.

    Ha, few years old data, but in 2011-2012, UEFA carried about 2200 tests across CL, UEFA Cup and and Euro 2012, FA carried out 1278 tests and FIFA carried out 662 urine tests, with 95 of those testing for EPO.

    How exactly are you going to find lots of drugs cheats when you're testing so little.

    In comparison, and I still think cycling doesn't do enough, but they had 622 tests in last year's Tour.

    Football doesn't do close to enough to actually find drug cheats


  • #105
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,023 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    I really think people are missing the point here. Its one thing to be content that Barcelona are looking after the kids involved, but the regulation and oversight for that should not be left in Barcelona's own hands. That just leads to abuse of their own systems and the inevitable mistreatment of a child somewhere down the line.

    To prevent this FIFA have clear regulations on what clubs should be doing, regulations that Barcelona have repeatedly violated.

    You may think that Barca obey the spirit of the rule but thats utterly, utterly irrelevant. The rules exist for very good reasons and its not up to Barcelona to unilaterally decide that they meet their own standards of care and so do not have to meet FIFA's.


  • #106
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    On the ruling, the spirit of the law (protecting kids from being exploited and trafficked) is undeniably the right one. It's a pity that Barcelona have fallen so publicly foul of it (they do by all accounts treat their youngsters well) but the law has to be applied to all clubs equally.

    Breaking the law is breaking the law. You can't steal a TV and then point out to the police that you were going to donate it charity.
    titan18 wrote: »
    Ha, few years old data, but in 2011-2012, UEFA carried about 2200 tests across CL, UEFA Cup and and Euro 2012...
    You realise that that year only 800 players took part in the Champions League, 1200 in the Europa League and 368 in Euro 2012? Now that doesn't include qualifying rounds, or account for double counting between national and club sides, but at the elite end of European football the player pool is very small. Roughly around 2,200 in fact

    Similarly, there are only 92 professional clubs in England. Assume an average squad size of 30 and that leaves approx 3,000 professional footballers (max 4,000) under the FA's jurisdiction. Which means that if your figure is correct then the FA is annually testing well over a third of its player population annually.

    Now I can't comment on the effectiveness of these testing regimes but in terms of numbers they're hardly tiny for a sport that has no real history of doping. Certainly the comparison to cycling is unwarranted


  • #107
    keeponhurling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,571 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    UEFA do need to enforce this ruling.
    If they back-track, it makes them look even weaker than if they had said nothing, and none of the big clubs will take any notice of their rules.


  • #108
    astonaidan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,456 ✭✭✭astonaidan


    RasTa wrote: »
    Just at youth level, crashes and burns out by 20 and back to Africa with no real prospects only to commit suicide 2 years later.

    Barca are now killing children!
    Well they would probably have a Spanish passport by then so why would they be back in Africa


  • #109
    gosplan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,828 ✭✭✭gosplan


    Jelle1880 wrote: »
    Any proof of that, apart from Real-fans crying about Messi being given perfectly legal growth stimulating hormones ?

    And I fail to see how that is arrogance. It's a fact that if young players get enrolled in La Masia they get a good education and professional guidance on and off the pitch, it's a valid argument from Barca's side. The law is in place to prevent systematic abuse by football clubs by bringing young, easily influenced kids to another country and when they don't succeed leaving them to fend for themselves (as has happend with countless African players).

    I'd imagine that every professional club provided education and advice for minors on their books.


  • #110
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,637 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Reekwind wrote: »
    On the ruling, the spirit of the law (protecting kids from being exploited and trafficked) is undeniably the right one. It's a pity that Barcelona have fallen so publicly foul of it (they do by all accounts treat their youngsters well) but the law has to be applied to all clubs equally.

    Breaking the law is breaking the law. You can't steal a TV and then point out to the police that you were going to donate it charity.

    You realise that that year only 800 players took part in the Champions League, 1200 in the Europa League and 368 in Euro 2012? Now that doesn't include qualifying rounds, or account for double counting between national and club sides, but at the elite end of European football the player pool is very small. Roughly around 2,200 in fact

    Similarly, there are only 92 professional clubs in England. Assume an average squad size of 30 and that leaves approx 3,000 professional footballers (max 4,000) under the FA's jurisdiction. Which means that if your figure is correct then the FA is annually testing well over a third of its player population annually.

    Now I can't comment on the effectiveness of these testing regimes but in terms of numbers they're hardly tiny for a sport that has no real history of doping. Certainly the comparison to cycling is unwarranted

    No real doping history because there is no real doping or because there has been no real effort to find same?

    Effective doping regimes involve random testing of specific athletes consistently. Xavi should be blood & piss tested once a week on average. You build up an average profile of the individual athlete and you monitor deviations from same. Anything less than that would be classed as ineffective in cycling's current setup or track athletics.

    Plus, the rumours have been there in the wind for a long time. Riccardo Agricola; Tony Cascarino's descriptions of playing for Marseille. When you then have a team like Barcelona who come in playing a revolutionary brand of high intensity pressing successfully on three fronts with unprecedented durability from their main midfield stars it should be the alarm bell to test more, more, more.

    I think the naivety amongst the public on stuff like this is hilarious. Ryan Giggs - yoga and good eating, yeah?


  • #111
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,839 ✭✭✭Jelle1880


    gosplan wrote: »
    I'd imagine that every professional club provided education and advice for minors on their books.

    Probably, but I doubt many of them keep their young players so involved with the club.


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  • #112
    Andersonisgod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,868 ✭✭✭Andersonisgod


    The results of this we will see play out in time so for now I feel no need to comment on that. However the amount of mocking of the "mes que un club" phrase on this thread has been staggering and reeks of ignorance.

    More than just a club, a phrase that gets up the nose of so many who loath to admit that the importance of Barcelona extends far beyond the football pitch. A phrase wheeled out when they look to deride the meaning and importance of Barcelona. I will simply leave you with these two quotes from former Barcelona presidents.

    "History has transformed us into something more than just a football club: Barcelona is the defence of a country, a language, a culture. "- Joan Gaspart

    "It is not just a slogan, it is a declaration of principles" - Joan Laporta


  • #113
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    Andersonisgod wrote: »

    "It is not just a slogan, it is a declaration of principles" - Joan Laporta

    Yeah, rule-dodging principles any chance they get ;)


  • #114
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,637 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Andersonisgod wrote: »
    The results of this we will see play out in time so for now I feel no need to comment on that. However the amount of mocking of the "mes que un club" phrase on this thread has been staggering and reeks of ignorance.

    More than just a club, a phrase that gets up the nose of so many who loath to admit that the importance of Barcelona extends far beyond the football pitch. A phrase wheeled out when they look to deride the meaning and importance of Barcelona. I will simply leave you with these two quotes from former Barcelona presidents.

    "History has transformed us into something more than just a football club: Barcelona is the defence of a country, a language, a culture. "- Joan Gaspart

    "It is not just a slogan, it is a declaration of principles" - Joan Laporta

    If Barcelona serve to uphold the principles and culture of a hypotetical Catalan State then I would humbly suggest such a State as a poor hypotetical place to live.

    Thankfully, I have no doubt that serious proponents of Catalan independence are focussed on many things above and beyond Barcelona Football Club.


  • #115
    HalloweenJack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,421 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    Andersonisgod wrote: »
    More than just a club, a phrase that gets up the nose of so many who loath to admit that the importance of Barcelona extends far beyond the football pitch. A phrase wheeled out when they look to deride the meaning and importance of Barcelona. I will simply leave you with these two quotes from former Barcelona presidents.

    "History has transformed us into something more than just a football club: Barcelona is the defence of a country, a language, a culture. "- Joan Gaspart

    "It is not just a slogan, it is a declaration of principles" - Joan Laporta
    I certainly respect that Barca's importance extends beyond football and noone can deny that but their fans proclaim that this, among other things, makes them a perfect example, when they quite clearly are not.

    La Masia is a great system and Barca should be applauded for that but their dealings in the Neymar transfer are well dodgy. I mean, why pay a massive fine if they're not guilty? It's the same as when that twat Sean Gallagher ran for president and got found out for being well dodgy. Again, if he wasn't guilty (as he later claimed and as Barca claim), why admit it (in his case) or pay a fine (in Barca's case)? It doesn't make sense, the only logical outcome is that it's a guilty conscience.

    And despite Barca pushing the Catalan cause, Rossell coming out and saying that if Catalonia achieved independence, the club would still continue in La Liga, the country they want to separate from, because of "sporting rivalries". Balls, he knows that leaving La Liga means a massive loss of revenue and competition and Barca would struggle. Basically, his line meant that he thinks the Catalan cause is good but only as long as it's good for business.

    Then there's the whole questions about why he resigned, coincidentally right in the middle of the Neymar case. Then there's the investigations about state interference. And now this.

    Yes, Barca should be commended for some things they do but they are not the knights in shining armour that they and their fans want people to think they are. Everyone is very quick to have a go at Real, and rightly so, but Barca fans seem to think they're untouchable. I think the reason why people are rejoicing in this is that it's comical to see Barca fans leap to their defence and still claim that they are ethically elite all others when they are clearly just as shady as any other football club/business.


  • #116
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    No real doping history because there is no real doping or because there has been no real effort to find same?
    Again, you say that there's been "no real effort" when the figures provided above show that over a third of elite players are being subjected to random testing protocols. And that has completely failed to uncover any widespread or organised doping in the sport.

    So no, I don't believe that football has a doping problem on par with cycling's or that there is some conspiracy to hide such a problem
    I think the naivety amongst the public on stuff like this is hilarious. Ryan Giggs - yoga and good eating, yeah?
    Yeah, it's much more likely that he's been the beneficiary of some top-secret doping programme that has eluded any testing and that only he has access to. Either that or he's a player who lost anything resembling pace years ago and is kept going entirely by the lack of alternatives in the Utd midfield. You decide what's the more probable


  • #117
    EuropeanSon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭EuropeanSon


    Reekwind wrote: »
    Again, you say that there's been "no real effort" when the figures provided above show that over a third of elite players are being subjected to random testing protocols. And that has completely failed to uncover any widespread or organised doping in the sport.

    So no, I don't believe that football has a doping problem on par with cycling's or that there is some conspiracy to hide such a problem

    Yeah, it's much more likely that he's been the beneficiary of some top-secret doping programme that has eluded any testing and that only he has access to. Either that or he's a player who lost anything resembling pace years ago and is kept going entirely by the lack of alternatives in the Utd midfield. You decide what's the more probable
    If you think any cheat is going to be caught by 1 piss test a year and a tiny chance of a blood test happening, you need to get yourself informed.

    Twice as many tests would still be not much real effort. You just don't seem to get that.


  • #118
    SantryRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,224 ✭✭✭✭SantryRed


    Football most definitely has a doping problem. It's a huge ****ing problem but no one cares. The Spanish government not releasing the Fuentes evidence should tell people all they need to know.


  • #119
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    EuropeanSon wrote: »
    If you think any cheat is going to be caught by 1 piss test a year and a tiny chance of a blood test happening, you need to get yourself informed
    Yeah, because nobody ever messes up. Did athletics only discover dopers when it switched to today's rigorous testing schedule? Were there no positives before the arrival of WADA? Are footballers using some highly secret drug that no one can detect? Or is evil FIFA and 'the Government' actually covering everything up?

    What we have here are people making unfounded sweeping statements without anything resembling a case to support them. This discussion is better suited to the Conspiracy Theory forum
    Twice as many tests would still be not much real effort. You just don't seem to get that.
    So how many tests are needed to produce even a single high-profile positive?


  • #120
    Paully D
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,710 ✭✭✭✭Paully D


    SeantheMan wrote: »
    Barcelona's Official repsonse for the appeal is as follows

    They could have summed that up by writing "we're Barcelona, how dare anyone punish us."


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  • #121
    EuropeanSon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭EuropeanSon


    Reekwind wrote: »
    Yeah, because nobody ever messes up. Did athletics only discover dopers when it switched to today's rigorous testing schedule? Were there no positives before the arrival of WADA? Are footballers using some highly secret drug that no one can detect? Or is evil FIFA and 'the Government' actually covering everything up?

    What we have here are people making unfounded sweeping statements without anything resembling a case to support them. This discussion is better suited to the Conspiracy Theory forum

    So how many tests are needed to produce even a single high-profile positive?

    What you're suggesting only matters if cheats are cheating in the same way athletes were before strict testing came in. That would be bizarre.

    FIFA are unlikely to be covering anything up, they just don't see a gain from testing as (i) there's no public demand for it, so it wouldn't bring more revenue and (ii) if there were lots of positive tests it would hurt the game.

    Similar numbers of tests (esp. Blood tests) to those that cyclists and elite athletes are subject to would be a start.


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