most likely attack?

Black Sheep · 29-03-2014 05:30PM

I've never done karate, but I know enough about it to know that it's an umbrella term that covers almost every kind of training at this stage. There are karate organisations that have practically started doing MMA in a dogi, you have Patrick McCarthy and Iain Aberneithy groups mining bunkai for self-defence and interpreting kata in a completely different way, you have various sport karates involving various degrees of contact and you have the frankly bizarre like the guys in the video linked to above.

Objectively speaking, is there really anything 'wrong' with any of it, provided people aren't being defrauded? I don't meet many shotokan instructors these days who are still saying with a straight face that what they do is as gruelling and effective a stand-up fighting style as boxing or muay thai. I work with a guy who puts a lot of effort into his karate, and I think he's keenly aware of its limitations. He judges himself in the format he competes in.

If what they want is to spar a little, do some performance martial arts for show and have a cultural aspect (links to Japan, interest in the history of their style and whatnot), more power to them. I also reckon that, when you get down to it, someone who does a few years of karate with any kind of competitive element might still be taking something away from it that would help them defend themselves if push came to shove. Maybe it's not optimal, but that doesn't mean it's entirely pointless. I'd wonder if some of these karate styles might actually end better for self defence than some of the traditional jujutsu, combatives and 'self defence' styles that only drill and practice technique and never compete.

If you come along and deride a particular style of karate for what it's not, then where do you draw the line? Muay Thai is great for striking but it doesn't teach you how to work on the ground. BJJ is super for the ground but unless you cross train your striking is non-existant and your takedowns and takedown defence might not be so hot either, depending. And maybe a filipino martial arts guy will look at those styles and feel that they are blind to the possibility of incorporating stick and knife into training.

SVJKarate · 18-07-2014 12:56PM

Zen65 wrote: »

I do agree however, that you may learn to fight more efficiently by skipping this part of training and focussing more on sparring. Shotokan karate in particular was introduced to Japan as a form of exercise for children by Funakoshi, and therefore you will only encounter a limited range of useful street-fighting exercises in following the purely traditional training format. Most of today's senior karate instructors do go beyond this to include teaching more combat-based scenarios, though not enough of them incorporate the kind of training advocated by the World Combat Association / British Combat Association.

I agree Zen. I would say that one of the reasons that some people hold negative views of karate is that they started to learn it as kids and did not progress to adult training. In a kids' class the instructor will generally follow the traditional form of teaching, which involves almost no contact (parents don't want to see their kids coming home with bruises). Moreover, it is increasingly the case that parents bring their kids to karate classes precisely because they may lack the physical coordination that results from playing other games, and they see karate (rightly) as a means of improving on that.

It is the success of karate as a form of kids' exercise which actually presents the challenge to allowing it be taught in a manner that has greater self-defence value.

In clubs where the adults and kids train together the level of complexity / physicality may not reach a point where the adult is getting a tough enough session. The distance between students when they rehearse attack / defend combinations is often very unrealistic because the instructor is primarily protecting the kids.

If you observe a club where adults and kids train in different classes then you may see a very different approach at the adult classes, with much more physical contact. Both kata and kumite aspects of karate can be trained with a self-defence approach which involves solid contact.

Crann na Beatha · 28-07-2014 06:49AM

This post has been deleted.

SVJKarate · 28-07-2014 02:31PM

Phoenix wrote: »

How does shotokan compare with other karate styles like kenpo, or Kyokushin,wadu ryu for self defence?

There's no great difference from that perspective. The individual techniques are broadly the same, but the emphasis on how they are applied differ. This is especially true in terms of stance & distance, where Shotokan training typically involves deeper stances as a means to developing strong hips & core muscles. Additionally Kyokushin practices more contact in competition (and presumably in training too) which is useful for self-defence, because it lessens the shock of actually being hit. There are far too many Shotokan clubs where training with partners is carried out at child-safe distance even in adult classes, and the self-defence benefits of any style is lost if it is always trained as a non-contact activity.

I've heard it said that Kenpo has a greater range of 'street' techniques, but I've not observed that to be the case. Furthermore, from a self-defence perspective you are better off to have practised ten techniques a thousand times each than to have trained a hundred techniques a hundred times each. In the adrenaline-fuelled instant where you need to call on your training to find a means of defending against an attack choice can be your enemy, whereas familiarity is your friend.

Finally, to repeat what I and others have already said here, real self-defence is not about using your arms and legs to defeat an attacker, it is about using your brains and your mouth to avoid a conflict. Those two weapons are more valuable than any other, and the best self-defence training is about learning how to sharpen their ability to steer you away from trouble.

Damo W · 05-08-2014 02:55PM

Phoenix wrote: »

How does shotokan compare with other karate styles like kenpo, or Kyokushin,wadu ryu for self defence?

I practice Karate, Koryu Uchinadi Kenpo-jutsu, but came from a Shotokan background. IMO there is a significant difference between the two wrt self defence.

With the most important difference being the contextual premise ‘those empty-handed and one-against-one acts of physical violence which habitually plagued the culture in which the original art evolved/aka HAPV [Habitual Acts of Physical Violence]’

Rather than haphazardly teach “fighting technique,” or kata, and then show the application practices, after the fact, the KU Pathway introduces the learner to the habitual acts of physical violence [HAPV]—historically representing the original contextual premise on which prescribed template application concepts were first developed—through a system of 2-person drills. After gaining a reasonable level of competency [against aggressive resistance] learners are taught how to rehearse the prescribed solo application modules by themselves — culminating the lessons learned. By linking together the individual modules into unique geometrical configurations something greater than the sum total of its individual parts appear – Kata. The KU Pathway also explains how, when practiced by themselves, Kata also serve as creative mechanisms through which to express individual prowess while strengthening one’s overall mental, physical and holistic conditioning.

Also the range of study within Koryu Uchinadi,

1. Negotiating spatial distance,
2. Giving/receiving percussive-impact,
3. Dealing with the standing clinch,
4. Adhesiveness and grip control,
5. Balance displacement,
6. Ground-fighting,
7. Joint manipulation/Limb entanglement,
8. Attacking anatomically vulnerable structures,
9. Blood/air deprivation,
10. Escapes/Counters,
11. Augmentation [hair-pulling, biting, eye-gouging, head-butting, seizing the testicles, etc.]
12. The Nexus [how it all works together].

But, what separates us is not nearly as important as what brings us together; Style divides but kata unites!

It is the common thread which weaves together the fabric of this tradition.

Peetrik · 05-08-2014 03:41PM

Damo,

I was honestly interested so I googled this hapv Patrick McCarthy guy... It looks terrible. Choreography with compliant partners, absolute fantasy stuff. I then came across a video of some group in Australia that didn't look too bad.

Do you have any videos of your actual club sparring/competing or even training so we can get an actual idea of what you do?

ps When people tell me the train eye gouging its usually a very bad sign.

most likely attack?

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