most likely attack?

session savage

Everyone seems to agree that in a street fight situation if your going to be attacked its most likely with a right hook/haymaker.
But has there ever been a study on assaults/attacks. Are there any stats on what type of attacks are carried out.
It would be a great study aid if there were statistics available so we could concentrate a little more on defending against the most probable attack.
Does anyone know of any stats or studies?

slammer187

Here are some common situations

Peetrik

Any stats and studies you find will all go out the window as soon as someone swings a dig at you Savage.

If you want to learn how to defend yourself, find a club that does regular full contact sparring, something like Thai, MMA, BJJ etc. Ideally one that competes as the members will be in shape and actively trying to hit each other.

Basically get used to getting hit hard and it won't be such a shock when it happens for real.

Niall Keane

yes you need to train realistically with full resistance - le bla bla habitual.... but it is interesting the "cultural" impact of popular martial arts on what transpires on "da stretz" - in the early 90's noone went for a shoot, with the UFC gaining popularity, from what I hear on the door, that "style" of fighting ( or a sloppy version of it) is becoming normal.

fighting is and always has been part of general culture, albeit a part often brushed under the rug. the cultural influence on typical "brawling" is an interesting idea?

RoboRat

As Peetrik says, its not about the art as much as its about the training. If you are used to getting hit you wont freeze like a rabbit in headlights and you won't let the adrenalin run to your head and start swinging wildly. Being calm and composed in such situations is what will really stand to you. Technique is important but IMO, its more important to keep your cool.

in the early 90's noone went for a shoot, with the UFC gaining popularity, from what I hear on the door, that "style" of fighting ( or a sloppy version of it) is becoming normal.

Fools will be fools. I don't understand why anybody would want to shoot for a takedown in a street fight, last thing I would want is to be on the deck and I train in BJJ! Anybody who is somewhat proficient in BJJ or MMA should be able to stuff a sloppy takedown and if somebody shoots for a takedown that doesn't know what they are doing.. well they are looking for a guillotine!

pearsquasher

At a seminar in France a few years back I talked to my training partner who is a Orthopaedic surgeon in A&E in Edinburgh and he says the most common assault injury he sees is from the "haymaker"..... fractures to wrist and knuckles by the attacker hitting someones head. A poor use of body dynamics by drunken idiots on a Friday night. (Yes I'm sure the victims didn't come out well either!)

I also have a friend who married an A&E xray consultant in France, who doesn't do martial arts, and he said he sees the same thing.

I conclude: Violent/angry/drunk men punch inefficiently and tend to damage themselves as much as the victim.

So common assaults aren't necessarily "quality" assaults

Related to all this is the idea that old Japanese gangster film often depict open-handed slapping strikes , while silimilar period films from the West show looks-cool-but-is-probably-not-efficient, haymakers. Interesting

Damo W

In Koryu Uchinadi we use the HAPV theory. Habitual Acts of Physical Violence, and they are catalogued into a list of 36 (initial ones).

See here for more information, www.koryu-uchinadi.com/contents/en-us/Docs/KU_HAPV.pdf


Extract, (by Patrick McCarthy Hanshi)

What started as one person’s quest to resolve the ambiguity in understanding the defensive application of kata has since grown into a worldwide movement of like-minded people in pursuit of common goals. In 1985, after nearly twenty years of training, I became discouraged by incongruous practices. I hadn’t come to disrespect traditional karate but I could no longer accept its modern interpretation of kata! With this in mind I began to search for a teacher, a style, or even an organization that could mentor me in a more rational, coherent and systematized manner.

Specifically, I was looking for someone who could;

#1. Use realistic acts of physical violence as a contextual premise from which to learn, rather than the impractical 3K rule-bound reverse punch scenario that permeates the tradition,

#2. Employ practical two-person drills to recreate those realistic acts of physical violence found in today’s empty-handed fighting scenarios and provide prescribed defensive templates ultimately leading to functional proficiency,

#3. Show how the prescribed templates [i.e. the composites which make up kata] not only culminated the lessons already imparted but, when linked together, clearly offered something greater than the sum total of their individual parts [i.e. Kata], and finally,

#4. To possess the ability to clearly demonstrate where these prescribed templates [ mnemonic mechanisms] exist in the classical/ancestral-based kata and how they were linked back to both generic and specific acts of physical violence.

While there were certainly no shortage of excellent yudansha everywhere I traveled during my decade in Japan, I found absolutely no trace of such teachings anywhere there, Okinawa or beyond! Hence, I was compelled to make my own deductions, which gradually resulted in the establishment of the Habitual Acts of Physical Violence-theory [HAPV-theory] and two-person drill concepts, which ultimately lead to the development of Koryu Uchinadi Kenpo-jutsu.



The 36 habitual acts of physical violence,

1. Straight kicks 2. Angular-type kicks 3. Straight punches 4. Circular punches 5. Downward strikes 6. Upward strikes 7. Knee & Elbow strikes 8. Head-butt/Biting & spitting 9. Testicle squeeze 10. Augmented foot/leg trips 11. Single/double-hand hair pull from the front/rear 12. Single/double-hand choke from the front/rear 13. Front neck choke from rear 14. Classical head-lock 15. Front, bent-over, augmented choke (neck-hold) 16. Half/full-nelson 17. Rear over-arm bear hug (& side variation) 18. Rear under-arm bear hug (& side variation) 19. Front over-arm bear hug (& side variation) 20. Front under-arm bear hug (& side variation) 21. Front/rear tackle 22. One-handed wrist grab (same & opposite sides-normal/reversed) 23. Two-handed wrist grabs (normal/reversed) 24. Both wrists seized from the front/rear 25. Both arms seized from the front/rear. 26. Single/double shoulder grab from front/rear 27. Arm-lock (behind the back) 28. Front arm-bar (triceps tendon fulcrum up supported by wrist) 29. Side arm-bar (triceps tendon fulcrum down supported by wrist) 30. Single/double lapel grab 31. Single/double-hand shove 32. Garment pulled over the head 33. Seized & impact 34. Single/double leg/ankle grab from the front (side/rear) 35. Ground straddle 36. Attacked (kicked/struck) while down.

For more information on this please check out www.koryu-uchinadi.com/

Peetrik

Damo, in another thread where the OP stated they weren't into competition but just liked doing Kata, you recommended this Karate online shop...

... now you're also recommending it for real life self defense?

In my mind the two would be as far apart as you could possibly get while still falling under the MA heading.

Do you seriously expect it to be the sufficient for both?

Craptacular

Peetrik you seem to put down kata a lot in your posts. Out of curiosity, have you ever seen any of Iain Abernethy's kata sparring or practical bunkai stuff? There's a lot more to kata than most clubs teach, or teach to lower grades anyway.

Peetrik

Craptacular wrote: »

Peetrik you seem to put down kata a lot in your posts. Out of curiosity, have you ever seen any of Iain Abernethy's kata sparring or practical bunkai stuff? There's a lot more to kata than most clubs teach, or teach to lower grades anyway.

Nope never seen him, do you have any links? Either of the Katas of of him fighting?

Just to clarify, the Kata I'm talking about are the Kata where you are standing in a line of people punching the air. 'Kata sparring' would suggest we might not be talking about the same thing.

I've no problem with Kata as part of a traditional art or as a method of passing knowledge along.
Not my cup of tea but each to their own, Kata away.

However I'd don't rate them at all as a method of learning how to actually fight when you could be sparring or hitting pads instead.
So when they are presented (with the best of intentions I'm sure) as a part of training for defense against street attacks I think it's a point worthy of debate.

Craptacular

Www.iainabernethy.com

He has a load of videos of applications and sparring drills on his site and also on YouTube if you search for his name.

I did Shotokan for about 7 years and knew nothing about the throws, locks and escapes that are in the Heian series of kata. I don't think it was being kept secret, I just think those training me had never seen them either. I wish I was still training Shotokan because I'd love to introduce some of his drills and work through the kata the way he does.

Peetrik

Craptacular wrote: »

He has a load of videos of applications and sparring drills on his site and also on YouTube if you search for his name.

Yeah I had searched and found him straight away, I was just wondering if you had a particular video in mind that might support your view instead of me picking one.

Much like Kata, I don't rate this method of training where someone freezes halfway through a karate chop pose and the 'fighter' does a 3-4 strike combo on them completely unresisted.

Craptacular

Peetrik wrote: »

Much like Kata, I don't rate this method of training where someone freezes halfway through a karate chop pose and the 'fighter' does a 3-4 strike combo on them completely unresisted.

Yeah, without going too much down a rabbit hole on this I think you're missing the point of that particular drill. He's not throwing a 3-4 strike combo. He's practicing an outside strike, then an inside and then repeating both. The one to actually be used depends on the path of least resistance and he says as much at the start. It's a drill based on where an opponent's arm is when contact is made, not a combo.

That aside, it's a drill based on movements from a kata. Work the drill, speed it up, add resistance and it becomes a new technique to use when sparring or fighting. (I don't see how that's much different from practicing a boxing/kickboxing combo on bags or pads before adding it to sparring.) This is also streets ahead of the general kata practice (in my experience) of just repeating the forms and giving lip service to the applications. That method is as good as useless in any situation and my original question about your generally negative view of kata was prompted by wondering if that was the only way you'd seen kata practiced. The method, of which the video you link to is an example, is a completely different, and generally overlooked, way of training kata.

As with so many things in TMA, it's not the kata that's useless but how it is trained.

Peetrik

Craptacular wrote: »

I think you're missing the point of that particular drill. He's not throwing a 3-4 strike combo. He's practicing an outside strike, then an inside and then repeating both.

If this is what you meant by Kata then we were definitely talking about different things, as you said, my only experience with Kata is the standing in a line, punching the air type.

While I wouldn't have previously considered it Kata, I still feel the same way about this method of training, too static... even if it's done quickly and with confidence it's still just sped up choreography IMO.
Even if the point is to get used to drilling chaining strikes together the 'opponent' is still just standing there waiting for his cue to fall over unconscious or whatever the intended outcome of the strikes. You are drilling for a reaction that is highly unlikely.

Craptacular wrote: »

I don't see how that's much different from practicing a boxing/kickboxing combo on bags or pads before adding it to sparring.

It's different because of what you're training your muscles to do. On a live dummy you can't follow through full force (trying to come out the guys back). You can on pads/bag. In the above method you are essentially drilling how to do it wrong.

Again each to their own, I have no problem with people doing Kata as part of their TMA, its part of the tradition etc go for it. I just reckon that Kata (the standing in lines type) has no place in training to actually fight.

Craptacular

What you're talking about is not kata, it's line work. Everybody stands in a line repeating a technique or a combination while the instructor either repeats along with everyone else or moves up and down the line making corrections where needed. It's of no practical benefit in an actual fight but it's a good way to train a technique or combo and I've seen it used in kickboxing clubs as well as karate clubs. The difference being that the kickboxing clubs then moved on to practicing the technique on pads or bags or partners. In my years of Karate I can remember using pads once.

Kata is an entirely different thing. I don't know how to embed YouTube clips but if you search for kata or Heian shodan (for example) you'll see how kata is trained and possibly even see why I saw Iain's stuff as so different.

Peetrik

This is what I mean by kata. When I did them we were made line up and do whichever one the student was learning.

I think we're talking about the same thing.

Craptacular wrote: »

it's a good way to train a technique or combo and I've seen it used in kickboxing clubs as well as karate clubs

We'll have to agree to disagree there. IMO there are much better, more well rounded ways of learning combos.
I'd readily believe they are used to teach semi contact point kickboxers, however I'd imagine most successful K1/full contact kickboxing gyms copy the Thai boxing format of heavy pads combine with heavy sparring to learn combos.

Craptacular

Right, yes that is kata and I've spent time training that way too where everyone repeats the kata that is being worked on. None of the techniques in the kata are studied, trained or practiced from an application point of view though so it quickly becomes a pointless exercise and of no practical use.

On line work as I know it, as opposed to kata, I'm not saying there aren't better ways to teach techniques. If you look at it as a two step training process:
1) the body mechanics of the technique
2) using the technique to hit something

The karate clubs I trained in only ever worked the first step but the kickboxing clubs (both semi & full contact) quickly moved on to the second with very little time spent on the first.

I can see a benefit from step 1 but step 2 is much more beneficial.

We're gone way off the original topic and my unrelated question though.

Peetrik

Craptacular wrote: »

On line work as I know it, as opposed to kata, I'm not saying there aren't better ways to teach techniques. If you look at it as a two step training process:
1) the body mechanics of the technique
2) using the technique to hit something

Just to address line work in that case.
The mechanics of hitting something with force and maintaining your balance while still following through with the strike and the mechanics of just hitting the air are completely different.
Also you are also missing out on the timing, distances and the conditioning of repeated heavy impacts, not to mention that freezing with your arm or leg extended so the coach has time to go around correcting height/posture etc instead of getting back behind your guard is a fantastically terrible habit.

As you say, there are better ways to teach technique, why not just learn in one of the better ways.

Craptacular

Peetrik wrote: »

The mechanics of hitting something with force and maintaining your balance while still following through with the strike and the mechanics of just hitting the air are completely different.

That's debatable but the body mechanics I was referring to were things like twisting the hip and the wrist and from that point of view the way a bag is hit and the way air is hit should be the same.

Peetrik wrote: »

Also you are also missing out on the timing, distances and the conditioning of repeated heavy impacts, not to mention that freezing with your arm or leg extended so the coach has time to go around correcting height/posture etc instead of getting back behind your guard is a fantastically terrible habit.

I don't disagree with any of that which is why I'd have liked to see the karate clubs swiftly progress to hitting pads and bags.

Pat Mustard

pearsquasher wrote: »

At a seminar in France a few years back I talked to my training partner who is a Orthopaedic surgeon in A&E in Edinburgh and he says the most common assault injury he sees is from the "haymaker"..... fractures to wrist and knuckles by the attacker hitting someones head. A poor use of body dynamics by drunken idiots on a Friday night. (Yes I'm sure the victims didn't come out well either!)

I also have a friend who married an A&E xray consultant in France, who doesn't do martial arts, and he said he sees the same thing.

I wonder if an A&E Doc from Glasgow would tell you that it's a head butt? :pac:

I heard that a head butt was a much more uncommon attack in the USA 20/25 years ago than it is now.

Damo W

Peetrik wrote: »

Damo, in another thread where the OP stated they weren't into competition but just liked doing Kata, you recommended this Karate online shop...

... now you're also recommending it for real life self defense?

In my mind the two would be as far apart as you could possibly get while still falling under the MA heading.

Do you seriously expect it to be the sufficient for both?

Hi Peetrik,

I was expecting your mail; it’s a lot like our HAPV list above, habitual

Can I ask you what you mean by ‘karate online shop..’? If I posted in error a link to a shop, sorry, that’s not what I see from my side, it’s a link(s) to the International Ryukyu Karate Research Society.

I will do my best to answer your questions but don’t believe we will reach agreement as you already have the two boxed ‘as far apart as you could possibly get’, in your mind.


In the other thread you refer to I posted:

A little late in on this one but have you tried Koryu Uchinadi www.koryu-uchinadi.com, Koryu Uchinadi is a non-competitive, totally application-based defensive practice, punctuated with moral philosophy and highlighted by introspective teaching as a comprehensive single study.

Exploring Kata (the core of KU) and its functional applications through two person flow drills sets etc.

I believe that KU would be something that he should try, KU is Kata centric, but unlike new traditionalists, we do not learn a Kata every 3 months for a grading etc. etc.

Kata does not teach you anything that you should not have already learned, Kata culminates the lessons learned.

In KU you might not learn a ‘Kata’ in the popular sense of the word until you are at yudansha level, prior to that the functional applications, two person flow drills and uses against the HAPV (common and recurring attacks) are taught (starting with a compliant partner working towards as much resistance as possible within that framework), then the Kata, so it culminates the lessons learned and used as a mnemonic instrument.

With this in mind I believe that the OP in question who, as you put it, ‘just liked doing Kata’ would be able to further explore Kata and possibly apply his new learning to his knowledge of existing patterns, while simultaneously working through common and recurring attacks.
Nothing to loose and everything to gain IMHO.


Now the remainder, the ethos of KU is non-competitive, (by this I mean entering competitions) we believe this reflects more closely the original intention of the early pioneers of the art. (Which it does )

To pre-empt your next question, what about sparring?

The type and degree is at the discretion of the KU instructor, since many KU instructors have come for different backgrounds, seeking answers that they could not find in their original art, this influences what type of sparring occurs, but may I assure you that all ranges are covered stand-up/clinch and ground, to greater or lesser extents based on the experience of the instructor.

Outcomes will always dictate the means.

[Caveat: some dojo’s are commercial and possibly have to compete with neighboring sport karate clubs with this in mind they do. In instance where members what to enter competitions, all assistance possible is given.]

.

Peetrik

Damo W wrote: »

Hi Peetrik,

I was expecting your mail; it’s a lot like our HAPV list above, habitual

Can I ask you what you mean by ‘karate online shop..’? If I posted in error a link to a shop, sorry, that’s not what I see from my side

How you see me is none of my business

By Karate shop I meant that it wasn't a link to a local club that he could check out, the only reason I could see for that particular link was to provide the OP with a place to purchase the DVDs for sale on there.

I don't find your answer at all clear. I'll try again...

Do you think a non competitive traditional type style that does Kata is also one of the better options for street attacks?

Also, you say some clubs compete, have you got any links showing your fighters competing or even just sparring?

Cheers

Black Sheep

Getting back to the OP's question, which was about what the most common sorts of attack people suffer are, and whether there are any studies on this:-

There's an issue around crime statistics whereby Garda statistics record only what is reported, and common sense tells us that a lot of people do not report crime for one reason or another - including assaults. There's no capturing of any unreported incidents, which is why periodically you have national attitude surveys by the likes of the Gardai, CSO etc trying to fill in the blanks. They sometimes show the public saying things that are at odds with official statistics.

Hospital admissions and in-patient data could reveal more information, although it's likely that even in that case there are people who won't bother seeking treatment either for one reason or another.

I can remember a study from a few years back which showed (to the best of what I can remember) that something like 40% of people who sought treatment for assault in hospitals in Ireland reported that a weapon was used. I've tried googling for that study, but I just can't find it. It'd be quite old at this stage.

I did find this one on NI:-

Trends in admission to hospital for assault in Northern Ireland, 1996/97–2008/09
http://jpubhealth.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/3/439.full#T1

This study compared in-patient hospital data relating to assaults with information obtained from the PSNI. As you'd probably expect, hospital data reflected a greater of people treated reporting assault than the PSNI had recorded.

I think we probably all recognise that NI is a special case in that, as made clear in the outline, they were really interested in looking at any trend they could detect around paramilitary-related activity. But nonetheless, even in an environment like NI it looks like 'bodily force' (which I'm taking means no use of weapons) was involved in 62% of the assaults.

As far as the whole self defence angle goes:-

I'd also advocate for anyone seriously interested in martial arts to spend at least some time training a combat sport like BJJ, muay thai or judo, so that they have a frame of reference for anything else they do. From a self defence point of view you're probably addressing the biggest concern: How to deal with someone punching you very hard in the head. If someone has a handle on that, and also has some basic knowledge of how to escape from the ground back up onto their feet then I think they'd be doing well.

However, to play devil's advocate, if you take it that a significant portion of assaults in Ireland involve people using weapons (and probably a higher number of the serious ones) you could query whether that's an area that remains unaddressed. I don't train for self defence so much anymore, so it doesn't bother me one way or another, but if that was someone's main focus I think it would be reasonable to at least consider whether you've ticked that box.

Black Sheep

This is the study I was trying to remember:-

Patterns of Patient Presentation to a Dublin Urban Emergency Department with Assault Related Injuries
http://www.imj.ie/ViewArticleDetails.aspx?ContentID=2951

The commonest injuries were to the head (38.7%) and to the face (36.6%). Notably a weapon was used in 54 (44.3%) of assaults. These were mostly glass (40.7%), knives (22.2%), and bats (16.6%). In 3 incidents, gun use was reported. 24 (19.7%) of patients assaulted required admission. There was one fatality as a result of multiple stab wounds to the chest and neck. 98 (80.3%) patients were discharged after treatment in the ED. Only 38 of these discharged patients had follow-up arrangements documented. Of the 122 patients assaulted, only 20 (16.4%) were referred onto Victim Support services for follow up. Patients were asked if they had reported the incident to the police, 50 (41%) had done so prior to or while attending the ED, and another 22 (18%) planned to contact police once discharged. A total of 50 (41%) patients said they had no intention of reporting the incident to the police. Remarkably 11of the 13 (84.6%) women who had been assaulted by their male partners did not plan to report the crime. By contrast, 7 out of 10 women assaulted by a stranger had contacted police before attending the ED.

I was a bit off on the stats, scope etc

Dyr

Kinda tells you that if you're not training against weapons then you should be probably be a lot more circumspect in these endless debates about effectviness

Peetrik

Bambi wrote: »

Kinda tells you that if you're not training against weapons then you should be probably be a lot more circumspect in these endless debates about effectviness

Thats right, Karate has weapons. By your logic these guys are better trained to defend themselves than MMA fighters. Effectiveness is important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v94bhw5UbM8

Dyr

They've failed at step two, failing at step one is not training against weapons

Appropriateness is important.

paul9720

i think there was a study in the uk about this i know a few systems train in the 10 most comman attacks i found them on the urban krav maga site . im training in KAPAP here in london and we use them but its not to say theres other ways to get a smack if you know what i mean

session savage

Thanks guy's. Some great replies there. I spent years training shotokan and will probably go back to it but more for the sport aspect of it. At the moment I'm training jiu jitsu and lucky enough to have a uke who is willing to go full on so I'm really getting a lot out of it. As with all styles there are one or two techniques that I could never see myself needing (like defense against someone kneeling on your shoulders) but the other side of the coin is that I am learning what seem to be really effective techniques against punches , kicks, grabs etc. I just wanted to see if I could find data that would shed light on what techniques I should put more effort into. I do plan on concentrating solely on jiu jitsu for another couple of years until I get my first dan. Will look for a good sparing mma class as well then, to test what I've learned and develop myself more.
Thanks folks.

Zen65

Peetrik wrote: »

Thats right, Karate has weapons. By your logic these guys are better trained to defend themselves than MMA fighters.

I think there is universal agreement that that video is not indicative of any style of karate, other than a McDojo!

Zen65

Peetrik wrote: »

This is what I mean by kata. When I did them we were made line up and do whichever one the student was learning.

Ironically, the video you linked to is that of Hirokazu Kanazawa, a legend of traditional karate who (among other things) is reputed to have beaten Bruce Lee in a fighting contest. Of course, I have no idea if that story is true as I've never seen any documented evidence of it, but it is widely reported in various snippets on the highly-reliable internet :rolleyes:

The form of kata training you mention is really basic, and while some clubs never go beyond that (often because their instructors cannot) it is simply intended as an introduction to more advanced and useful ways of applying the various techniques of karate. Proper practice of kata (not the line-dancing stuff) enhances the practitioner's sense of balance and power, as well as developing correct breathing and kime (focus).

I do agree however, that you may learn to fight more efficiently by skipping this part of training and focussing more on sparring. Shotokan karate in particular was introduced to Japan as a form of exercise for children by Funakoshi, and therefore you will only encounter a limited range of useful street-fighting exercises in following the purely traditional training format. Most of today's senior karate instructors do go beyond this to include teaching more combat-based scenarios, though not enough of them incorporate the kind of training advocated by the World Combat Association / British Combat Association.

Black Sheep

I've never done karate, but I know enough about it to know that it's an umbrella term that covers almost every kind of training at this stage. There are karate organisations that have practically started doing MMA in a dogi, you have Patrick McCarthy and Iain Aberneithy groups mining bunkai for self-defence and interpreting kata in a completely different way, you have various sport karates involving various degrees of contact and you have the frankly bizarre like the guys in the video linked to above.

Objectively speaking, is there really anything 'wrong' with any of it, provided people aren't being defrauded? I don't meet many shotokan instructors these days who are still saying with a straight face that what they do is as gruelling and effective a stand-up fighting style as boxing or muay thai. I work with a guy who puts a lot of effort into his karate, and I think he's keenly aware of its limitations. He judges himself in the format he competes in.

If what they want is to spar a little, do some performance martial arts for show and have a cultural aspect (links to Japan, interest in the history of their style and whatnot), more power to them. I also reckon that, when you get down to it, someone who does a few years of karate with any kind of competitive element might still be taking something away from it that would help them defend themselves if push came to shove. Maybe it's not optimal, but that doesn't mean it's entirely pointless. I'd wonder if some of these karate styles might actually end better for self defence than some of the traditional jujutsu, combatives and 'self defence' styles that only drill and practice technique and never compete.

If you come along and deride a particular style of karate for what it's not, then where do you draw the line? Muay Thai is great for striking but it doesn't teach you how to work on the ground. BJJ is super for the ground but unless you cross train your striking is non-existant and your takedowns and takedown defence might not be so hot either, depending. And maybe a filipino martial arts guy will look at those styles and feel that they are blind to the possibility of incorporating stick and knife into training.

SVJKarate

Zen65 wrote: »

I do agree however, that you may learn to fight more efficiently by skipping this part of training and focussing more on sparring. Shotokan karate in particular was introduced to Japan as a form of exercise for children by Funakoshi, and therefore you will only encounter a limited range of useful street-fighting exercises in following the purely traditional training format. Most of today's senior karate instructors do go beyond this to include teaching more combat-based scenarios, though not enough of them incorporate the kind of training advocated by the World Combat Association / British Combat Association.

I agree Zen. I would say that one of the reasons that some people hold negative views of karate is that they started to learn it as kids and did not progress to adult training. In a kids' class the instructor will generally follow the traditional form of teaching, which involves almost no contact (parents don't want to see their kids coming home with bruises). Moreover, it is increasingly the case that parents bring their kids to karate classes precisely because they may lack the physical coordination that results from playing other games, and they see karate (rightly) as a means of improving on that.

It is the success of karate as a form of kids' exercise which actually presents the challenge to allowing it be taught in a manner that has greater self-defence value.

In clubs where the adults and kids train together the level of complexity / physicality may not reach a point where the adult is getting a tough enough session. The distance between students when they rehearse attack / defend combinations is often very unrealistic because the instructor is primarily protecting the kids.

If you observe a club where adults and kids train in different classes then you may see a very different approach at the adult classes, with much more physical contact. Both kata and kumite aspects of karate can be trained with a self-defence approach which involves solid contact.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

SVJKarate

Phoenix wrote: »

How does shotokan compare with other karate styles like kenpo, or Kyokushin,wadu ryu for self defence?

There's no great difference from that perspective. The individual techniques are broadly the same, but the emphasis on how they are applied differ. This is especially true in terms of stance & distance, where Shotokan training typically involves deeper stances as a means to developing strong hips & core muscles. Additionally Kyokushin practices more contact in competition (and presumably in training too) which is useful for self-defence, because it lessens the shock of actually being hit. There are far too many Shotokan clubs where training with partners is carried out at child-safe distance even in adult classes, and the self-defence benefits of any style is lost if it is always trained as a non-contact activity.

I've heard it said that Kenpo has a greater range of 'street' techniques, but I've not observed that to be the case. Furthermore, from a self-defence perspective you are better off to have practised ten techniques a thousand times each than to have trained a hundred techniques a hundred times each. In the adrenaline-fuelled instant where you need to call on your training to find a means of defending against an attack choice can be your enemy, whereas familiarity is your friend.

Finally, to repeat what I and others have already said here, real self-defence is not about using your arms and legs to defeat an attacker, it is about using your brains and your mouth to avoid a conflict. Those two weapons are more valuable than any other, and the best self-defence training is about learning how to sharpen their ability to steer you away from trouble.

Damo W

Phoenix wrote: »

How does shotokan compare with other karate styles like kenpo, or Kyokushin,wadu ryu for self defence?

I practice Karate, Koryu Uchinadi Kenpo-jutsu, but came from a Shotokan background. IMO there is a significant difference between the two wrt self defence.

With the most important difference being the contextual premise ‘those empty-handed and one-against-one acts of physical violence which habitually plagued the culture in which the original art evolved/aka HAPV [Habitual Acts of Physical Violence]’

Rather than haphazardly teach “fighting technique,” or kata, and then show the application practices, after the fact, the KU Pathway introduces the learner to the habitual acts of physical violence [HAPV]—historically representing the original contextual premise on which prescribed template application concepts were first developed—through a system of 2-person drills. After gaining a reasonable level of competency [against aggressive resistance] learners are taught how to rehearse the prescribed solo application modules by themselves — culminating the lessons learned. By linking together the individual modules into unique geometrical configurations something greater than the sum total of its individual parts appear – Kata. The KU Pathway also explains how, when practiced by themselves, Kata also serve as creative mechanisms through which to express individual prowess while strengthening one’s overall mental, physical and holistic conditioning.


Also the range of study within Koryu Uchinadi,

1. Negotiating spatial distance,
2. Giving/receiving percussive-impact,
3. Dealing with the standing clinch,
4. Adhesiveness and grip control,
5. Balance displacement,
6. Ground-fighting,
7. Joint manipulation/Limb entanglement,
8. Attacking anatomically vulnerable structures,
9. Blood/air deprivation,
10. Escapes/Counters,
11. Augmentation [hair-pulling, biting, eye-gouging, head-butting, seizing the testicles, etc.]
12. The Nexus [how it all works together].


But, what separates us is not nearly as important as what brings us together; Style divides but kata unites!

It is the common thread which weaves together the fabric of this tradition.

Peetrik

Damo,

I was honestly interested so I googled this hapv Patrick McCarthy guy... It looks terrible. Choreography with compliant partners, absolute fantasy stuff. I then came across a video of some group in Australia that didn't look too bad.

Do you have any videos of your actual club sparring/competing or even training so we can get an actual idea of what you do?

ps When people tell me the train eye gouging its usually a very bad sign.