Books: luxury or necessity?

Muise... · 28-03-2014 09:07PM #1

New prison rules in England and Wales mean that prisoners cannot receive parcels in case they contain drugs. This means they can't get books or magazines from friends outside, and have to use the prison library or earn enough to buy their own books.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26726864

I can't imagine not reading. I'm rubbish at comics; my eye goes straight for the text and the pictures distract me. The reason I love the internet so much is that it is a giant, superfast reference library - the sort I could never have imagined when I was a nerd-culchie child dependent on the county mobile library every second Tuesday at the crossroads (not kidding!). Being able to look things up is, IMO, a survival skill of the hunting and foraging kind.

As well as being full of entertainment and education, books are a private medium. That's what makes me really sad to read about these new UK prison rules - I'd say a book of their own is the only escape into personal space the prisoners have (pun intended) and as such, a part of their rehabilitation.

And I don't care if they're all mean nasty ugly mother-rapers and father-stabbers who should be hanged from a rope made out of tabloids, I think everyone should have access to books from friends and teachers.

What do you think?

Talib Fiasco · 28-03-2014 09:10PM

But they all have Kindles?

The Backwards Man · 28-03-2014 09:11PM

Give them all tablets.

bumper234 · 28-03-2014 09:13PM

Muise... wrote: »

New prison rules in England and Wales mean that prisoners cannot receive parcels in case they contain drugs. This means they can't get books or magazines from friends outside, and have to use the prison library or earn enough to buy their own books.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26726864

I can't imagine not reading. I'm rubbish at comics; my eye goes straight for the text and the pictures distract me. The reason I love the internet so much is that it is a giant, superfast reference library - the sort I could never have imagined when I was a nerd-culchie child dependent on the county mobile library every second Tuesday at the crossroads (not kidding!). Being able to look things up is, IMO, a survival skill of the hunting and foraging kind.

As well as being full of entertainment and education, books are a private medium. That's what makes me really sad to read about these new UK prison rules - I'd say a book of their own is the only escape into personal space the prisoners have (pun intended) and as such, a part of their rehabilitation.

And I don't care if they're all mean nasty ugly mother-rapers and father-stabbers who should be hanged from a rope made out of tabloids, I think everyone should have access to books from friends and teachers.

What do you think?

They shouldn't have broken the law ergo they shouldn't (imo) have any luxuries! There is a prison library and ok they may not have the latest and greatest books available but it boils back down to they shouldn't have broken the law!

shopaholic01 · 28-03-2014 09:13PM

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

But they all have Kindles?

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Give them all tablets.

You don't get the new book smell then, that's part of the enjoyment.

Muise... · 28-03-2014 09:16PM

bumper234 wrote: »

They shouldn't have broken the law ergo they shouldn't (imo) have any luxuries! There is a prison library and ok they may not have the latest and greatest books available but it boils back down to they shouldn't have broken the law!

You don't think books can help their rehabilitation?

Legs.Eleven · 28-03-2014 09:17PM

I wonder how decent are the prison libraries though. Maybe they can get anything they want from there? I know you can order any book you want from public libraries in Ireland as far as I know, so maybe it's the same for prison libraries?

I love reading and I love books and would genuinely lose my mind without them and I agree that access to them should be a basic entitlement. I trained as a librarian for a year and a half with the intention of doing the master's in UCD in Library and Info studies and hoped to work in public libraries after because I believe it's one of the greatest public services we have and a mark of a civilised society. Hopefully prison libraries are decent.

bumper234 · 28-03-2014 09:18PM

Muise... wrote: »

You don't think books can help their rehabilitation?

Sure and they should be able to read as many books as they like from the library. If it is a book for a course they are doing as part of rehab then let them give the money to someone in the prison who can buy it for them but if there is a history of books being used to smuggle in drugs or other narcotics then they should be banned.

SEPT 23 1989 · 28-03-2014 09:19PM

Prisons are an industry now,they want them back in as soon as possible

Reading a book could change their lives

no profit in that

Sulla Felix · 28-03-2014 09:19PM

Can they not just check the books for drugs? Mad, I know.

wazky · 28-03-2014 09:19PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Give them all tablets.

Id say a few of them are in there due to possession of tablets.

Toby Take a Bow · 28-03-2014 09:21PM

Personally, books would be more a necessity than a luxury for myself. But I think that's even more the case with prisoners. Reading not only helps to educate but (particularly fiction) can help people to empathise with others. Rehabilition is so essential, unless you want them getting out in ten years and committing the same (or worse) crimes.

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

I wonder how decent are the prison libraries though. Maybe they can get anything they want from there? I know you can order any book you want from public libraries in Ireland as far as I know, so maybe it's the same for prison libraries?

Not sure how it works over in England, but the head of the Quick Reads Books (kind of short books for people learning to read or have difficulty reading) is saying that there are serious issues with funding for prison libraries, and they are worried that they will be the first to go if more cuts are on the way.

Collie D · 28-03-2014 09:24PM

Muise... wrote: »

You don't think books can help their rehabilitation?

Nice sentiment, OP and as an avid reader I agree. Books aren't a luxury. Might be wasted on a lot of prisoners but I am sure even one per cent that could use reading as a form of rehabilitation would make making books available worthwhile.

Then again if schools have to go without funding for libraries then I suppose prisons should be behind them in the queue

The Backwards Man · 28-03-2014 09:26PM

shopaholic01 wrote: »

You don't get the new book smell then, that's part of the enjoyment.

I used to think that, but I have a house coming down with books now and now one wants them any more, they just collect dust. I have a wee thing 7 inches long in my hand that has more in its hard drive than the Thomas Jefferson and the George Pompidou put together.

The way of the future folks.

Muise... · 28-03-2014 09:28PM

bumper234 wrote: »

Sure and they should be able to read as many books as they like from the library. If it is a book for a course they are doing as part of rehab then let them give the money to someone in the prison who can buy it for them but if there is a history of books being used to smuggle in drugs or other narcotics then they should be banned.

I've just bought a book for a friend for his birthday, and I've written an inscription on the title page. I chose the book because it's about things he is interested in and it reminds me of conversations we've had. So (hopefully) when it lands on his doormat it will contain all of that as well as type on white paper. Maybe that's what you and I don't agree on - the bonus properties of books from outside?

hairyprincess · 28-03-2014 09:30PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I used to think that, but I have a house coming down with books now and now one wants them any more, they just collect dust. I have a wee thing 7 inches long in my hand that has more in its hard drive than the Thomas Jefferson and the George Pompidou put together.

The way of the future folks.

I love having a wee 7 inch long thing in my hand

Collie D · 28-03-2014 09:31PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I used to think that, but I have a house coming down with books now and now one wants them any more, they just collect dust. I have a wee thing 7 inches long in my hand that has more in its hard drive than the Thomas Jefferson and the George Pompidou put together.

The way of the future folks.

Would love my own library. Have read a couple of books on Kindle and it is a fantastic invention but I still prefer a nice paper book. After years of reading and giving books away when finished I have recently bought a couple of book cases and plan to start keeping everything I buy.

As an aside, if they are getting in the way would you consider donating to charity shops, schools, libraries or even prisons?

Polymorpheus · 28-03-2014 09:32PM

While relishing the smell of a brand new book is possibly a luxury, I don't think books in general are.

Popescu · 28-03-2014 09:34PM

bumper234 wrote: »

They shouldn't have broken the law ergo they shouldn't (imo) have any luxuries! There is a prison library and ok they may not have the latest and greatest books available but it boils back down to they shouldn't have broken the law!

I hope you never get caught for a crime.

Books are a necessity in prison and recognized by the Geneva Convention for the treatment of prisoners of war required that prisoners be allowed to receive parcels which contained books.

Muise... · 28-03-2014 09:43PM

Popescu wrote: »

I hope you never get caught for a crime.

Books are a necessity in prison and recognized by the Geneva Convention for the treatment of prisoners of war required that prisoners be allowed to receive parcels which contained books.

Prisoners of war are not criminals.

Fox_In_Socks · 28-03-2014 09:51PM

Ban all printed books from prison.

Bring in blank books and non-stab pens.

Get the prisoners to use their magical imaginations in dreaming up new wonderous universes and stories limited not by what is, but what can be.

Every day can be a Dead Poet's Society Day. In fact, I would have at least one prisoner standing up on a table at all times, just to reinforce this theme. Even meal times and toilet break.

And I'd put Robin Williams in prison. Cause he isn't that funny.

GalwayGuy2 · 28-03-2014 09:57PM

Interesting question that has no real answer:)

The pros of keeping books is that it gives prisoners something to do. Perhaps calms prisoners down. And perhaps give them skills to get on in life.

The cons are that A) What are these people's literacy levels? Perhaps audio books are a better option?

Some content can create problems. I remember a Martina Cole book being banned from prison in case it acted as a trigger or as an aid.

C) You an learn a lot of suprising things from books. Where someone's liver is, their lungs are, how to drive someone insane, so on so forth.

TL;DR:

Dunno

Too Tough To Die · 28-03-2014 10:07PM

I read Trainspotting. Lots of drugs in that.

Muise... · 28-03-2014 10:11PM

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Interesting question that has no real answer:)

The pros of keeping books is that it gives prisoners something to do. Perhaps calms prisoners down. And perhaps give them skills to get on in life.

The cons are that A) What are these people's literacy levels? Perhaps audio books are a better option?

Some content can create problems. I remember a Martina Cole book being banned from prison in case it acted as a trigger or as an aid.

C) You an learn a lot of suprising things from books. Where someone's liver is, their lungs are, how to drive someone insane, so on so forth.

TL;DR:

Dunno

A) If a prisoner is illiterate, what better time to teach him/her to read than during the sentence?

Tell me more.

C) And about other people's perspectives and feelings (particularly in narrative fiction) so empathy can be encouraged.

Toby Take a Bow · 28-03-2014 10:23PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I used to think that, but I have a house coming down with books now and now one wants them any more, they just collect dust. I have a wee thing 7 inches long in my hand that has more in its hard drive than the Thomas Jefferson and the George Pompidou put together.

The way of the future folks.

Not so sure about them (necessarily) being the way of the future. Figures for ebook sales over the last few years have been skewed (some would say deliberately) by Amazon. While there has been undeniable growth, this would be expected in a new market which is starting from scratch and a lot of reports are suggesting a leveling out over the next few years as the market reaches saturation point. And paper books, after a few years of decline (perhaps understandable given the worldwide recession) have seen a recent (slight) increase.

But regardless of this, I don't understand the either/or option. Why not use both? Paper books for when they are cheaper (which they often are because of bizarre publishing prices and the ability to actually buy things second hand), if you want a more durable copy, and if you are reading something like an art or cookery book, which paper is better at displaying and ereaders for when you're travelling, reading something you have no intention of reading again, and for those instances when the electronic copy is actually cheaper (classics are an example of this: publishers have been ripping us off for years on this).

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Interesting question that has no real answer:)

The pros of keeping books is that it gives prisoners something to do. Perhaps calms prisoners down. And perhaps give them skills to get on in life.

The cons are that A) What are these people's literacy levels? Perhaps audio books are a better option?

Some content can create problems. I remember a Martina Cole book being banned from prison in case it acted as a trigger or as an aid.

C) You an learn a lot of suprising things from books. Where someone's liver is, their lungs are, how to drive someone insane, so on so forth.

TL;DR:

Dunno

Regarding your cons: reading books can help improve people's literacy levels. The Quick Reads are a good example of this. They have adult subject matter and introduce some difficult words that those who have difficulty reading will have to look up. And I would be surprised if a prisoner wasn't at least somewhat aware of where the liver was and how to drive someone insane.

CK73 · 28-03-2014 10:24PM

Muise... wrote: »

You don't think books can help their rehabilitation?

I believe that prisoners are put through rehabilitation and if books are required as part of that, then I'm sure they would be provided with the relevant books.

I don't believe that they should have instant access to any book they fancy and I think it is a good thing that they can work towards acquiring the books that they want, as they will experience what it is like to be deprived of something, which no doubt someone else was when they managed to get themselves in there in the first place.

So, if books are a passion, then instead of bargaining for cigarettes or any other thing that might be on offer for a price, they may look towards a book instead, or... they may not.

I think it would be wrong to assume that people in prison value the same things your average person does, although I appreciate some people may be in there when they shouldn't be, but if books do matter, then maybe they will think twice before doing something to land back in there again.

28-03-2014 10:24PM

As much as I enjoy reading a good book, and I think prisoners should have access to books, I think there's a certain pretentiousness surrounding book reading that's adding a sensationalist slant to this.

Perfect example from the article:

We give children books because they are unequivocally good things which make them better people.

We give children books so that they can learn to read, be entertained, and exercise their imagination/perspective. Reading a book does NOT make you a better person. Sure you can read a book about anything, from ethics to necrophilia-based erotica. But people love to get up in arms about how much they luuuurve books because it gives them an excuse to go around professing their interest in them like it makes them some sort of automatic intellectual, and like being an intellectual makes you a better person than someone else.

If the prisoners were being denied books as a punishment, i.e. just to torment them with boredom, I would say that it's unfair, or even cruel. But they're not being denied books. They have access to a library. They have the facility to buy books. They're only being refused permission to accept books in parcels from outside. I think there would be far less outrage if they were being forced to only watch videos from a prison video library/their own funds or if they had to spend money to get access to internet sources. I mean, the prisoners have to spend money to get phone calls, what's so wrong with them having to buy a book if it's not in the library?

GalwayGuy2 · 28-03-2014 10:26PM

Yeah, I'm tired so my examples are bad. :P

Meh, I'm for libraries in prisons.

Muise... · 28-03-2014 10:34PM

true-or-false wrote: »

As much as I enjoy reading a good book, and I think prisoners should have access to books, I think there's a certain pretentiousness surrounding book reading that's adding a sensationalist slant to this.

Perfect example from the article:

We give children books so that they can learn to read, be entertained, and exercise their imagination/perspective. Reading a book does NOT make you a better person. Sure you can read a book about anything, from ethics to necrophilia-based erotica. But people love to get up in arms about how much they luuuurve books because it gives them an excuse to go around professing their interest in them like it makes them some sort of automatic intellectual, and like being an intellectual makes you a better person than someone else.

If the prisoners were being denied books as a punishment, i.e. just to torment them with boredom, I would say that it's unfair, or even cruel. But they're not being denied books. They have access to a library. They have the facility to buy books. They're only being refused permission to accept books in parcels from outside. I think there would be far less outrage if they were being forced to only watch videos from a prison video library/their own funds or if they had to spend money to get access to internet sources. I mean, the prisoners have to spend money to get phone calls, what's so wrong with them having to buy a book if it's not in the library?

I'd say giving someone the opportunity to stop being bored, boring and ignorant is kinda helping them to be a better person.

Yeah, we luuuuurve books so much because they make us so much better than everyone else so we don't want anyone else to have them in case they join our secret exclusive intellectual club. Oh, wait...

I think I was clear in my OP about the specific details of this rule. I certainly tried to be clear, so we could have an informed discussion without outrage and sneering.

CK73 · 28-03-2014 10:37PM

Muise... wrote: »

I'd say giving someone the opportunity to stop being bored, boring and ignorant is kinda helping them to be a better person.

Yeah, we luuuuurve books so much because they make us so much better than everyone else so we don't want anyone else to have them in case they join our secret exclusive intellectual club. Oh, wait...

I think I was clear in my OP about the specific details of this rule. I certainly tried to be clear, so we could have an informed discussion without outrage and sneering.

If the statistics given are correct, which is debatable in itself these days, it would be fair to say that the majority of criminals in prison are of below average intelligence, so the books provided should be of benefit, what ever they are. There are some great stories in the bible and I'm sure they would have access to one of those.

Earthhorse · 28-03-2014 10:40PM

Much as I sympathise, ultimately I have to say I don't think it's a right they have and by the sounds of things it was a privilege they were abusing and has now been removed. That's a shame for those of them who weren't but I'm sure this ruling didn't come about for no reason.

You would think they would be able to quickly flick through a book for contraband but perhaps resources are already over stretched. A shame, I feel, it's come to this but perhaps it won't make much of a difference in their reading habits but will prevent them smuggling illicit material into the prison.

Books: luxury or necessity?

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