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Misleading restaurant menu description

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    mitosis wrote: »
    It is a cut of meat. Is there a legal definition for what a "chop" is? I doubt it.

    Oxford "Strip of meat"

    Freedictionary "Strip of fish or chicken"

    Recipe

    In this case, strip means a long piece, not a particular cut of meat.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,383 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    If you buy the right ones they can be, same as way you can get chicken nuggets made out of breast.
    That user already said some restaurants would have ones made from unprocessed meat. I don't think there is a single poster here saying all goujons are ALWAYS processed, but some are seemingly still clinging to this idea that they are all unprocessed, even though people are saying otherwise, and there are loads of products called goujons which specifically state they are processed, it is certainly no secret, yet some still have their head in the sand. If people think we are all lying for some reason just look in your supermarket the next time.
    mitosis wrote: »
    Is there a legal definition for what a "chop" is? I doubt it.
    If this thread was about a lamb or pork chop being ordered and a minced meat product came out I doubt there would be a single person saying the equivalent of what was said about the goujon. If I look up tescos site there are about 16 items called chops, all appear to be unprocessed cuts. All 8 items on tesco called goujon appear to be from reformed chicken.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭mitosis


    rubadub wrote: »
    That user already said some restaurants would have ones made from unprocessed meat. I don't think there is a single poster here saying all goujons are ALWAYS processed, but some are seemingly still clinging to this idea that they are all unprocessed, even though people are saying otherwise, and there are loads of products called goujons which specifically state they are processed, it is certainly no secret, yet some still have their head in the sand. If people think we are all lying for some reason just look in your supermarket the next time.

    If this thread was about a lamb or pork chop being ordered and a minced meat product came out I doubt there would be a single person saying the equivalent of what was said about the goujon. If I look up tescos site there are about 16 items called chops, all appear to be unprocessed cuts. All 8 items on tesco called goujon appear to be from reformed chicken.

    When Tesco are the definers of what is correct we are all shagged. Did they not have horse labelled as beef in their stores? Using Tesco as your prima facie is a dodgy road.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭mitosis


    In this case, strip means a long piece, not a particular cut of meat.

    "In this case"?

    Seriously? Are you redefining the word "strip" now? A long piece - not a moulded mush.


  • Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭WhyTheFace


    mitosis wrote: »
    "In this case"?

    Seriously? Are you redefining the word "strip" now? A long piece - not a moulded mush.

    There is no definition that states a goujon has to be made from unprocessed chicken. They don't have to, hence they are not.

    You seem to think a "strip" must be from pure, un-processed chicken. You are wrong.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,383 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    mitosis wrote: »
    When Tesco are the definers of what is correct we are all shagged. Did they not have horse labelled as beef in their stores? Using Tesco as your prima facie is a dodgy road.
    wow, just wow, brilliant comment, my mind is changed, now I am going to go off expecting ALL goujons to be unprocessed meat :rolleyes:

    I expect many pubs also served horsemeat at the time, and probably some expensive restaurants.

    The ones in tesco include moy park and big als and other brands. I could have picked other supermarkets if they showed products online, but sure why not get a good old tesco-bashing session in.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,966 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    mitosis wrote: »
    When Tesco are the definers....
    Yeah look whatever. You are totally right. Keep ordering nuggets/gougons/whatever and hopefully the delight you feel about being right (while everyone is wrong), will somehow balance the bitter disappointment you feel when you get processed chicken.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    This is one of the silliest consumer issues in a while.

    A) you're concerned about what the child eats but think that hotel bar food meets your high requirements.
    B) you ordered chicken goujons of said bar menu still concerned about quality but yet not bothered double checking.
    C) you found out its cheap and processed (surprise) and are wondering is there a consumer issue to follow up on as the wording on the menu was misleading

    Seriously?

    I dare say no matter where you go it's safe to assume you will get processed rubbish on those types of foods unless explicitly stated otherwise.

    Everyone with a bit if common sense knows that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    I still haven't seen OP explain why he simply didn't say all this to the bar manager at the time.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭mitosis


    rubadub wrote: »
    wow, just wow, brilliant comment, my mind is changed, now I am going to go off expecting ALL goujons to be unprocessed meat :rolleyes:

    I expect many pubs also served horsemeat at the time, and probably some expensive restaurants.

    The ones in tesco include moy park and big als and other brands. I could have picked other supermarkets if they showed products online, but sure why not get a good old tesco-bashing session in.


    There's no need to get snippy, it's not that important a discussion. I have demonstrated definitions that show a goujon to be what I attest it should be. I have seen no definition that says it may be reconstituted produce. You don't have to accept my say so - you have no idea that I am qualified to, but if you think I am incorrect it would serve better to illustrate this than to resort to the likes of the above.

    rubadub, while I have quoted your post, I do not intend my comment specifically to you. There are a couple of others to whom the remarks equally apply. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    mitosis wrote: »
    I have demonstrated definitions that show a goujon to be what I attest it should be. I have seen no definition that says it may be reconstituted produce.
    mitosis wrote: »
    "In this case"?

    Seriously? Are you redefining the word "strip" now? A long piece - not a moulded mush.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nugget
    "a small batter-fried piece of chicken or fish"
    So is a piece allowed to be reconstituted or not?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,383 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    mitosis wrote: »
    but if you think I am incorrect it would serve better to illustrate this than to resort to the likes of the above.
    I already did.
    rubadub wrote: »
    the last is big als, maybe those catering ones are different, but the 2 big als goujons in tesco are from "Marinated chicken breast fillet chopped and shaped", which I presume is the nice way of saying pumped with water and reformed.

    http://www.tesco.ie/groceries/Product/Details/?id=277909475
    http://www.tesco.ie/groceries/Product/Details/?id=277910052

    Many of the reformed pumped up breasts still look like real ones.

    I am getting "snippy" because of the point blank refusal to accept what is blatantly obvious, almost making out that people are lying about seeing ones being made from processed meat.

    Dunno if people are simply making no distinction between "hope" and "expect". If anybody asked me what a proper goujon was supposed to be I would say the mini fillets/tenderloin, this is what I would hope to get, but not be 100% sure to get it, or expect to get it.

    Just as I do not expect to get a real chicken fillet in a spar €2.50 baguette, or get non frozen fish in a chipper labelled as "fresh cod". I would hope to get it, but I am not going to feign ignorance about what actually goes on and start looking up dictionary definitions of "fresh". I am very skeptical of any marketing/labelling terms I see, loads are meaningless waffle.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,391 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    looking at what everyone has said.. it still seems clear that goujons if you widen the the parameters are at worst "chopped and shaped breast pieces" ranging to at best actual tenderloins.

    Either or I would say is a premium product and I would still not accept any reformed chicken, etc as a goujon. (Well TBH I would probably just say it to them and go I will take your nuggets anyway).

    But hey theres more inportant things in life! Sure if it has a decent garlic/cajun dip beside it I would probably go for it! My expectation, however, would always be for a premium product here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭WhyTheFace


    mitosis wrote: »
    There's no need to get snippy, it's not that important a discussion. I have demonstrated definitions that show a goujon to be what I attest it should be. I have seen no definition that says it may be reconstituted produce. You don't have to accept my say so - you have no idea that I am qualified to, but if you think I am incorrect it would serve better to illustrate this than to resort to the likes of the above.

    rubadub, while I have quoted your post, I do not intend my comment specifically to you. There are a couple of others to whom the remarks equally apply. :)

    As long as you realise you are wrong/naive/innocent to think that goujons are made from processed chicken.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,964 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I am with the op, if I ordered goujons I would expect non-processed chicken. If I saw them in a pub or similar and wanted to order them I would ask are they goujons or nuggets, and no doubt the server would say, 'er yes, they are nuggets, you know, goujons'.

    I think it is a great pity that so many posters have been so scathing about the op expecting goujons when he asked for goujons. If you asked for Coca cola and were served a supermarket equivalent you would be quick enough to complain. If you asked for Ballygowan and got tap water, likewise. And the whole business of what he should have done is dealt with in the first post.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭WhyTheFace


    looksee wrote: »
    I am with the op, if I ordered goujons I would expect non-processed chicken. If I saw them in a pub or similar and wanted to order them I would ask are they goujons or nuggets, and no doubt the server would say, 'er yes, they are nuggets, you know, goujons'.

    I think it is a great pity that so many posters have been so scathing about the op expecting goujons when he asked for goujons. If you asked for Coca cola and were served a supermarket equivalent you would be quick enough to complain. If you asked for Ballygowan and got tap water, likewise. And the whole business of what he should have done is dealt with in the first post.

    The issue is not about expecting a better quality product. It's about him not doing anything about it at the time and then giving out on the internet about it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,383 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    looksee wrote: »
    . If you asked for Coca cola and were served a supermarket equivalent you would be quick enough to complain. If you asked for Ballygowan and got tap water, likewise.
    I don't think that's a similar comparison, both are very specific branded items. Another poster was talking about the term "chops"
    rubadub wrote: »
    If this thread was about a lamb or pork chop being ordered and a minced meat product came out I doubt there would be a single person saying the equivalent of what was said about the goujon. If I look up tescos site there are about 16 items called chops, all appear to be unprocessed cuts. All 8 items on tesco called goujon appear to be from reformed chicken.

    When asking for coca cola/coke sometimes they give out pepsi, most of the time they inform you first though, and I have seen people refuse it.

    A partially fairer comparison would be someone ordering "cola", and not getting coca cola and complaining saying "I ordered a cola and expected coca cola, that's what I think I get in all the other pubs". This is fairer as cola is not a brand, just like goujon is not. I have seen people moan about ordering a "vodka", and not getting smirnoff red with this notion of "thats what I usually get"


  • Registered Users Posts: 523 ✭✭✭carpejugulum


    I expect junk food unsuited for children when I see a 'Kids Menu'.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,383 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    Some other things you might want to watch for. Your chicken breast in takeaways could be pumped with soy & water, see this "70% Frozen Chicken Fillets" on musgraves

    http://www.musgravemarketplace.ie/_uploads/documents/Flyers/R3_2014/MP_Asian_J476_Flyer_Final.pdf

    And the common "chicken fillet baguette"
    What’s In The Chicken Breast In The Chicken Fillet Rolls In Spar?
    chicken.jpg

    You cannot work out how much chicken is in it. The 51% is referring to ingredient, not the whole thing. So that list, in order of greatest and getting rid of the deliberately confusing brackets is,

    Chicken, breadcrumbs, batter, vegetable oil, wheatflour, salt etc.

    The "chicken" is top of the list, it might be 50% "chicken", so really ~25% of actual chicken in it.

    -of course some chicken baguettes might be genuine, dunnes charge about 3.80 or 3.90 for them. The price is not always a definite indicator of course, but I would have more faith in dunnes. The pub prices might have been an indicator, if the kids menu had got fish fingers, chicken goujons & sausages all at aroundt he same price level I would be fairly sure its processed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭Unrealistic


    Apologies for the delayed response. I’ve been out of action for a while. Thanks to everyone who took the trouble to respond constructively whether it was to agree with my complaint, to tell me that I was being presumptuous to expect real chicken, or anything in between. To the minority (only 2 really) who chose to use this thread as an opportunity to get up on their high horses and respond to points that weren’t even made, or just throw in condescending comments while clearly not having even bothered to read the thread beyond the opening post, I hope you can at some point in the future find a way to deal with your insecurities other than playing “someone on the internet is wrong”.

    I’ll try to address some of the recent questions/points raised in one go.

    There is no legal definition of goujon
    Someone pointed out that there isn’t a legal definition of ‘goujon’ in the way there is with Parma Ham, which is correct but I don’t think it’s really a relevant comparison. Instead I think what is more important is what a reasonable person would understand the term ‘goujon’ to mean. One poster likened it to the word ‘chop’ and I think that is a much more relevant comparison. ‘Steak’ might be another one. If a menu says ‘minute steak’ without specifying a particular cut then a reasonable person would still expect that they are going to get a thinly pounded whole piece of muscle meat (traditionally sirloin or round) and would rightly be disappointed if they were served something made from mince or, even worse, some recently defrosted mush that technically contained beef but with many other added ingredients. My mistake was in assuming that there would be a widespread understanding that ‘goujon’ has a similarly strict definition and that it refers to whole pieces of muscle meat (traditionally the tenderloin or breast). From the responses in this thread it seems that there are many people who hold to that definition but even more who don’t see a problem with ‘goujon’ being used to any describe any breaded ‘chicken flavoured’ product.

    That so many people think that way was a surprise to me. It won’t make me change my mind about the definition of ‘goujon’; I still believe that used correctly it refers to whole pieces of meat; but it will make me more careful about checking what a restaurant’s interpretation is if I see it on a menu. I also believe that any restaurant manager or chef writing a menu will be aware of the proper definition of ‘goujon’ so if they choose to use that term to describe anything other than whole pieces of breaded chicken it won’t be a place I’ll go back to.

    You shouldn’t expect real chicken on a kids menu/in a pub
    In my own home area I could name a couple of dozen pubs that I wouldn’t take my kids to because I know they’ll be offered the cheapest/nastiest sausages or nuggets but these places also have an adult menu that is nothing special either. I could also name a half a dozen pubs where I know I can take my kids and we’ll all get decent food. These happen to be places where good quality food is their main selling point rather than just having a basic menu for people who get hungry while watching the match and having a few pints. The incident I referred to happened in another part of the country that was new to me so I tried to find something similar to the pubs with decent food that I would go to at home. On the face of it the pub we went to seemed to fit the bill. It is in a medium sized Irish town where tourism is one of the main industries and where being a ‘food and drink’ destination is one of the town’s main selling points. The pub is part of a boutique hotel which also contains a hotel restaurant and separate café and which boasts about the food awards and recommendations it has earned and its internationally renowned chef. The menu in the bar is ambitious without being too fancy. It claims to offer “honest locally sourced food” and the mid-point for three courses (without drinks) is about €25. One main course item, as an example, is “XXX Mussels served in a White Wine Onion Coriander Cream” (where XXX is actually the name of the local fishing grounds but I’m not spelling it out so as not to identify the town/hotel/pub). Chicken Goujons feature on both the adult and kids menus. Given all of the above I was expecting that this was a place that wouldn’t dream of serving anything other than breaded strips of whole meat. If the kids goujons had instead been the manufactured versions made from chopped chicken breast (as one poster linked to above in Tesco) then that wouldn’t have been too bad but would still have been a disappointment. But when it wasn’t even that but they were served round nuggets made from ‘pink slime’ I think it’s a really misleading description.

    You should have spoken to the manager at the time.
    We arrived on the Friday of a weekend when there was a major event in the town. It was still very early evening when we went into the pub and there was only one young guy on duty behind the bar who was also covering the floor. I got talking to him when I was ordering drinks and getting menus and understood that he had only been working there a couple of weeks and that he had been left on his own holding the fort so the other staff could get a break for an hour or two ahead of what was expected to be a long and busy night. He was clearly out of his depth and, based on the fact that it took an hour from when we walked in until we got our food, it seemed a safe bet that the kitchen was similarly lacking in manpower and experience. So there was no manager to talk to and, while I could have taken it up with the kid behind the bar, I didn’t think there was anything to be gained from it because it didn’t seem like he would be able to do anything about it. I also felt sorry for him, probably thinking back to the first time I was left in charge of a bar on my own when I was his age.

    Thanks again to those who responded. It has been an education.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,383 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    even more who don’t see a problem with ‘goujon’ being used to any describe any breaded ‘chicken flavoured’ product.

    That so many people think that way was a surprise to me.
    Just to note, I most certainly do have a problem with the fact that "goujon" has come to mean any old chicken product. I would love if it was similar to "steak" or "chop", but it is not, so I accept it, others in this thread (not you) appear to refuse that this is the case.

    On my tesco search all goujons appeared to be processed, all chops appeared unprocessed. If in 10 years time this thread comes up again and manufacturers etc have begun to call minced pork products "chops", and all the tesco hits showed processed pork products called chops then I would sigh and accept it -and would begin to question pubs if their chops are processed or not.

    You shouldn’t expect real chicken on a kids menu/in a pub
    Regarding this, I am still interested to hear if other things were on the menu
    The pub prices might have been an indicator, if the kids menu had got fish fingers, chicken goujons & sausages all at around the same price level I would be fairly sure its processed.
    Now you did not know it was common knowledge at the time, so I would not have expected you to cop it, but am just wondering if there were other things in the same price range.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭Unrealistic


    rubadub wrote: »
    Now you did not know it was common knowledge at the time, so I would not have expected you to cop it, but am just wondering if there were other things in the same price range.
    It's quite a while since we were there so I don't remember exactly what was on the Kids Menu. (They have the main menu online on their website to refresh my memory but not the kids menu.) But I'm quite certain it wasn't the Fishfinger & Chips, Sausage & Chips, Nuggets & Chips variety. I think there was a burger on there (as there is on the main menu) and also a pasta dish.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭Plek Trum


    Why not take a calm and constructive approach - contact the manager of the bar (email if they have it, if not phonecall)?

    Explain you were in town for the busy weekend, liked the look of his pub and took your family in for bite to eat and rest up. Service was grand enough, you weren't in a hurry anywhere BUT maybe they could take a look at the wording on the menu. Explain you thought chicken goujons would have been breaded chicken fillet pieces for your kids and not the nuggets that were produced.

    Not a massive complaint, but just to let him know in future that in other circumstances you may have sent them back and other families possibly will too in the future. He wont want food going back to the kitchen or unhappy families upping and leaving after food arrives and should (may) address the issue.

    Small action, friendly approach. No need for drama.


  • Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭WhyTheFace


    So there was no manager to talk to and, while I could have taken it up with the kid behind the bar, I didn’t think there was anything to be gained from it because it didn’t seem like he would be able to do anything about it. I also felt sorry for him, probably thinking back to the first time I was left in charge of a bar on my own when I was his age.

    You assumed there was no manager to talk to. You could have at least asked if there was.

    Your OP states you are looking for advice on how you should have handled it.

    It's as simple as this...if you had a problem then you should have dealt with it there and then. But you didn't so you need to just let it go and learn from your experience.

    The other thing you need to accept is that you are wrong in thinking that goujons are "whole strips of breaded chicken" as per your OP. They are not and as rubadub has shown they don't have to be. If they did have to be then Tesco could be sued for false advertising.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    I just don't accept the argument that there didn't seem to be a manager to raise the issue with. You should have at least asked for one.


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