The Hazards of Belief

Turtwig · 27-03-2014 05:36PM

norrie rugger wrote: »

How did I end up quoted there?

Once upon a time in the mystical forum land of boards there existed a moderator. This moderator was not unlike any other moderator of the boards though. He was very clumsy and often did things unexpectedly. One such story tells of a time where a user was quoted for no reason whatever. The user, naturally befuddled by such strangeness, queried why they'd been quoted. To which the reply they got was :

Obliq · 27-03-2014 05:37PM

Jernal wrote: »

Every substance has side effects anything that claims not to is either incredibly naive or lying.

"Is there a risk of overdose?

Yes, there is a low risk of hyponatremia; and in rare cases, drowning can occur.

Since there is some danger, do you have the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet)?

Yes, see MSDS: Dihydrogen Monoxide."

I'm totally loving that website :cool:

marienbad · 27-03-2014 07:57PM

ninja900 wrote: »

So give up and let them win over public opinion then, is that it? Or what point if any are you trying to make?

Such groups are effectively irrelevant - 20 years scaremongering here have yielded nothing.

More worrying was the mmr scare but that had what was regarded initially as qualified people involved , as soon as that was debunked it faded away to the conspiracy level.

These thing will always have some adherents no matter what you do is all I am saying and as long as it stays that way why worry.

Obliq · 27-03-2014 08:13PM

marienbad wrote: »

These thing will always have some adherents no matter what you do is all I am saying and as long as it stays that way why worry.

Their adherents are incredibly vocal on social media. It won't stay that way for long - you'd be very surprised at some people for repeating bulls!!t because their friends do, and the spread of this conspiratorial "big-pharma" notion. I've had out and out rows with people who are friends of friends on facebook whose sheep-mentality woo goes unchallenged in certain communities.

I'm worried. You'd be foolish not to be IMO.

Turtwig · 27-03-2014 08:42PM

marienbad wrote: »

Such groups are effectively irrelevant - 20 years scaremongering here have yielded nothing.

More worrying was the mmr scare but that had what was regarded initially as qualified people involved , as soon as that was debunked it faded away to the conspiracy level.

These thing will always have some adherents no matter what you do is all I am saying and as long as it stays that way why worry.

Yielded nothing?

Fourteen years after the local transmission of measles was halted in the United Kingdom (UK), the disease has once again become endemic, according to the Health Protection Agency (HPA), the public health body of England and Wales. In an update on measles cases in its weekly bulletin last week, the agency stated that, as a result of almost a decade of low mumps-measles-rubella (MMR) vaccination coverage across the UK, ‘the number of children susceptible to measles is now sufficient to support the continuous spread of measles

...
Europe is facing a measles epidemic, with large ongoing outbreaks for instance in Switzerland, Austria and Italy.

Source

And that's just Measles. Polio is making a resurgence in Syria if that were to spread to Europe we'd have seriously ethical decisions to consider. The most effective Polio vaccine does carry the risk of causing polio. The current one is generally safe but nobody is really taking it in the Continent. If there were a polio outbreak hard decisions would have to be made.

Ignorance, as they say, is bliss.

marienbad · 27-03-2014 09:57PM

Jernal wrote: »

Yielded nothing?

And that's just Measles. Polio is making a resurgence in Syria if that were to spread to Europe we'd have seriously ethical decisions to consider. The most effective Polio vaccine does carry the risk of causing polio. The current one is generally safe but nobody is really taking it in the Continent. If there were a polio outbreak hard decisions would have to be made.

Ignorance, as they say, is bliss.

Are you saying this is connected to and because of ''the nutty professor'' and mmr ?

marienbad · 27-03-2014 10:02PM

Obliq wrote: »

Their adherents are incredibly vocal on social media. It won't stay that way for long - you'd be very surprised at some people for repeating bulls!!t because their friends do, and the spread of this conspiratorial "big-pharma" notion. I've had out and out rows with people who are friends of friends on facebook whose sheep-mentality woo goes unchallenged in certain communities.

I'm worried. You'd be foolish not to be IMO.

Nothing to worry about, they just move from one conspiracy to the next . There are far more real conspiracies that have proper sourcing to worry about these nut jobs.

Turtwig · 27-03-2014 10:08PM

marienbad wrote: »

Are you saying this is connected to and because of ''the nutty professor'' and mmr ?

No, I'm saying that I'm having one of those days where I miss the flow of discussions and thought you were talking about vaccinations folk instead of fluoride. As I am MOD I cannot be wrong so you were clearly talking about MMR. Disputing this is futile!

But yes it is connected to the anti-vaxxers and the low vaccination rates.

marienbad · 27-03-2014 10:19PM

Jernal wrote: »

No, I'm saying that I'm having one of those days where I miss the flow of discussions and thought you were talking about vaccinations folk instead of fluoride. As I am MOD I cannot be wrong so you were clearly talking about MMR. Disputing this is futile!

But yes it is connected to the anti-vaxxers and the low vaccination rates.

All of these diseases are on the increase ,I don't think it is because of the anti mmr crowd though. This is a huge problem and apparently has very complex reasons , one of the main ones being the over use of anti-biotics and the rise of the so called 'super-bugs'.

Between the NSA and climate change deniers I already have enough real conspiracies to worry about .

oscarBravo · 27-03-2014 11:42PM

marienbad wrote: »

All of these diseases are on the increase ,I don't think it is because of the anti mmr crowd though. This is a huge problem and apparently has very complex reasons , one of the main ones being the over use of anti-biotics and the rise of the so called 'super-bugs'.

Nope. The resurgence of diseases that were basically beaten by vaccination is solely and completely down to scaremongering about vaccines.

I'm not a violent person, but Andrew Wakefield is one person I'd happily see pilloried in the literal sense.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-03-2014 12:07AM

marienbad wrote: »

Such groups are effectively irrelevant - 20 years scaremongering here have yielded nothing.

I wish I could agree.

For instance, we have a lightly-trafficked BB in work - about 50% of the posts in the last few months have come from a 'girl against fluoride' type, 'toxic', 'nuclear by-product' and all the other guff

Arguing against her would (a) be a waste of time, (b) make me look like an asshole (c) not work anyway (d) I've better things to be doing in work

So by default her anecdotes successfully trump science. A couple of people tried arguing with her for a while but gave up

I've no idea how many people who were uninformed/'neutral' on the issue would read her guff and start buying into it, but it's almost certainly greater than zero.

So it goes.

marienbad · 28-03-2014 12:33AM

ninja900 wrote: »

I wish I could agree.

For instance, we have a lightly-trafficked BB in work - about 50% of the posts in the last few months have come from a 'girl against fluoride' type, 'toxic', 'nuclear by-product' and all the other guff

Arguing against her would (a) be a waste of time, (b) make me look like an asshole (c) not work anyway (d) I've better things to be doing in work

So by default her anecdotes successfully trump science. A couple of people tried arguing with her for a while but gave up

I've no idea how many people who were uninformed/'neutral' on the issue would read her guff and start buying into it, but it's almost certainly greater than zero.

So it goes.

Yeah I accept that , there is always a section of people that buy in to this kind of stuff and if it wasn't her it would be someone else and if it wasn't fluoride it would be something else . My belief is no never engage with them.

Happily those people and issues are so diverse they rarely get any traction and in the odd occasion they do they either implode of get wiped out by fact based opinion.

marienbad · 28-03-2014 12:36AM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Nope. The resurgence of diseases that were basically beaten by vaccination is solely and completely down to scaremongering about vaccines.

I'm not a violent person, but Andrew Wakefield is one person I'd happily see pilloried in the literal sense.

That is not quite the same thing though - and I agree Wakefield should be shot metaphorically .

That gained traction because he was a recognised unbiased scientist or so we thought and in a way proves my point ,

Obliq · 28-03-2014 01:54AM

marienbad wrote: »

Nothing to worry about, they just move from one conspiracy to the next . There are far more real conspiracies that have proper sourcing to worry about these nut jobs.

I can't understand this attitude. It's like you're actually telling us to stick our heads in the sand and it'll all go away. There are real people of my own age and educational background out there now in my community who refuse to vaccinate their children because of this HORSESH!TE, and the problem is growing.

If you can't see what makes it such a problem even after what Jernal posted earlier, then I feel sorry for you, but please don't go round recommending that we don't worry. I'm not a child. I'm an adult trying to protect children by debunking this dangerous and irresponsible nonsense.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-03-2014 01:56AM

marienbad wrote: »

That gained traction because he was a recognised unbiased scientist or so we thought and in a way proves my point ,

There is a damn good reason that peer review exists - scientists are not necessarily more trustworthy or less egotistical or careerist than your average Joe - and often they're worse.

The notion that a scientist is unbiased because he or she is a scientist is an utter falsehood - humans are human and interpret the available evidence on all matters according to their own biases. What matters is whether a given theory/supposition can withstand, over time, the most vigorous attacks from those who are knowledgeable in the area, and preferably ill-disposed to the proponents of the theory

marienbad · 28-03-2014 02:02AM

Obliq wrote: »

I can't understand this attitude. It's like you're actually telling us to stick our heads in the sand and it'll all go away. There are real people of my own age and educational background out there now in my community who refuse to vaccinate their children because of this HORSESH!TE, and the problem is growing.

If you can't see what makes it such a problem even after what Jernal posted earlier, then I feel sorry for you, but please don't go round recommending that we don't worry. I'm not a child. I'm an adult trying to protect children by debunking this dangerous and irresponsible nonsense.

You are misrepresenting me, these people will exist no matter what you do.If you feel they are a danger to their children report them and move on Fight the battles you can win and must win like climate change for instance .

If ever those people get within a mile of having best practice changed I will rush to join you on the barricades .

marienbad · 28-03-2014 02:04AM

ninja900 wrote: »

There is a damn good reason that peer review exists - scientists are not necessarily more trustworthy or less egotistical or careerist than your average Joe - and often they're worse.

The notion that a scientist is unbiased because he or she is a scientist is an utter falsehood - humans are human and interpret the available evidence on all matters according to their own biases. What matters is whether a given theory/supposition can withstand, over time, the most vigorous attacks from those who are knowledgeable in the area, and preferably ill-disposed to the proponents of the theory

That is exactly what I said - as soon as he was peer reviewed he was finished , a bit like the Regnerus chap with his gay parenting study.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-03-2014 02:10AM

Unfortunately a proportion of the media report 'a scientist said X' as if it were fact and a substantial proportion of the public will believe them.

When I was an 8 year old, I thought Horizon on BBC2 was great TV. Now that I'm an adult, I think that Horizon on BBC2 aimed at adults is really only suitable for 8 year olds

Pass me the Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster, make mine a double. The band Devo were prescient 35 years ago, our society has ceased to value knowledge, rather it values the exact opposite.

Obliq · 28-03-2014 02:13AM

marienbad wrote: »

You are misrepresenting me, these people will exist no matter what you do.If you feel they are a danger to their children report them and move on Fight the battles you can win and must win like climate change for instance .

If ever those people get within a mile of having best practice changed I will rush to join you on the barricades .

For goodness sake, I quoted you, and replied to exactly what you said.

Here's the problem marienbad. It is not against the law not to vaccinate your children, so I cannot report anyone at all, in spite of their children now being a danger to mine due to lower "herd immunity".

Never mind your mile -these people have already changed "best practice" in a lot of areas (see Jernal's link, and perhaps have a read of it this time eh?) and the problem is that vaccine effectiveness is being harmed as it becomes too thinly spread to keep these vicious diseases at bay.

When you say "these people exist, no matter what you do", are you recommending that we stop challenging misinformation? It's a strange approach to a growing problem Marienbad - wait till the enemy is at your door before barricading the village.

marienbad · 28-03-2014 02:16AM

ninja900 wrote: »

Unfortunately a proportion of the media report 'a scientist said X' as if it were fact and a substantial proportion of the public will believe them.

When I was an 8 year old, I thought Horizon on BBC2 was great TV. Now that I'm an adult, I think that Horizon on BBC2 aimed at adults is really only suitable for 8 year olds

Pass me the Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster, make mine a double. The band Devo were prescient 35 years ago, our society has ceased to value knowledge, rather it values the exact opposite.

Indeed it is , but you must remember that most of us are only 8 years old when it comes to science, In my case it is probably closer to 5.

Most of it never matters and what does matter we allow ourselves to be sidetracked . Whose cares about fluoride when we are killing ourselves with tobacco,drugs and alcohol ?

Hotblack Desiato · 28-03-2014 02:17AM

I despair of humanity sometimes, sometimes it appears we are de-evolving...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDPDaphgR3k

Obliq · 28-03-2014 02:21AM

I LOVE Devo - good choice ninja, great song.

marienbad · 28-03-2014 02:26AM

Well I am the eternal optimist but I suppose it depends on where you live , A case could be made that anyone born in the republic from 1900 on has had it the best that this land has ever had to offer.

The same may not be said to those coming after us .

Obliq · 28-03-2014 02:33AM

marienbad wrote: »

Well I am the eternal optimist but I suppose it depends on where you live , A case could be made that anyone born in the republic from 1900 on has had it the best that this land has ever had to offer.

The same may not be said to those coming after us .

Well now, THAT'S the truth. *not so optimistic*

marienbad · 28-03-2014 02:35AM

Obliq wrote: »

Well now, THAT'S the truth. *not so optimistic*

And that is something I really worry about, my day is nearly done but what we have left for our kids and their kids terrifies me .

Hotblack Desiato · 28-03-2014 02:35AM

marienbad wrote: »

Indeed it is , but you must remember that most of us are only 8 years old when it comes to science, In my case it is probably closer to 5.

You're not, trust me. All you need is an eternally inquiring mind, common sense, and a decent nose for bull****.

The notion that we can delegete our thinking off to great thinkers, so we can get on with reality TV, wine and orgies, is rather reminiscent of the latter days of the decline of the Roman empire. There is nothing wrong with sex, drugs, orgies, or even reality TV, but we must not lose sight of the fact that somebody with their head screwed on needs to be advising whoever it is has their hand on the oul' tiller. A democracy of deluded fools is nothing to be proud of.

Most of it never matters and what does matter we allow ourselves to be sidetracked . Whose cares about fluoride when we are killing ourselves with tobacco,drugs and alcohol ?

Keep you doped with religion, and sex, and TV... but you think you're so clever and classless and free
but you're still fúcking peasants as far as I can see. - I'm sure you can identify the quotee

Hotblack Desiato · 28-03-2014 02:50AM

marienbad wrote: »

Well I am the eternal optimist but I suppose it depends on where you live , A case could be made that anyone born in the republic from 1900 on has had it the best that this land has ever had to offer.

Oooh I wouldn't say that. I'd say that anyone born in this republic before circa 1980 got way more church bullsh!t forced down their necks under the guise of state education than any reasonable western democracy could abide. But we put up with it 'cause it was 'normal' and 'expected'.

The same may not be said to those coming after us .

Hah, I was a teenager in the 80s, you can't really spook people who grew up with quite rational fears of thermonuclear annihilation.

marienbad · 28-03-2014 02:50AM

ninja900 wrote: »

You're not, trust me. All you need is an eternally inquiring mind, common sense, and a decent nose for bull****.

The notion that we can delegete our thinking off to great thinkers, so we can get on with reality TV, wine and orgies, is rather reminiscent of the latter days of the decline of the Roman empire. There is nothing wrong with sex, drugs, orgies, or even reality TV, but we must not lose sight of the fact that somebody with their head screwed on needs to be advising whoever it is has their hand on the oul' tiller. A democracy of deluded fools is nothing to be proud of.

Keep you doped with religion, and sex, and TV... but you think you're so clever and classless and free
but you're still fúcking peasants as far as I can see. - I'm sure you can identify the quotee

Show a little faith , there's magic in the night is a bit more my type

marienbad · 28-03-2014 02:56AM

ninja900 wrote: »

Oooh I wouldn't say that. I'd say that anyone born in this republic before circa 1980 got way more church bullsh!t forced down their necks under the guise of state education than any reasonable western democracy could abide. But we put up with it 'cause it was 'normal' and 'expected'.

Hah, I was a teenager in the 80s, you can't really spook people who grew up with quite rational fears of thermonuclear annihilation.

Of course , and I don't mean to diminish those times , I was a teenager in the 60's and experienced those times directly.

But in the grand scheme of things we had it better that most other nations, no wars or famines etc.

Here we are discussing fluoride in water and billions can't even get water.
1st world problems and 3rd world problems ( Though I am told 3rd world is no longer politically correct usage)

Hotblack Desiato · 28-03-2014 03:17AM

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000220911

The Hazards of Belief

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