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The NHS use discarded foeti to heat hospitals

24

Comments

  • #32
    wendell borton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭wendell borton


    "A human foetus, with no more human feeling than an
    amoeba, enjoys a reverence and legal protection far in excess of those
    granted to an adult chimpanzee. Yet the chimp feels and thinks and-
    according to recent experimental evidence-may even be capable of
    learning a form of human language. The foetus belongs to our own
    species, and is instantly accorded special privileges and rights because of
    it."
    -Richard Dawkins


  • #33
    FurBabyMomma
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 774 ✭✭✭FurBabyMomma


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    Thats what I was thinking.



    They heat the place by using the heat that is created by burning medical waste instead of just letting the energy go to waste. Its not them burning the foetus specifically.

    I read the article and am of course aware there's not some sort of foetus incinerator specifically sitting there. The fact is that these foeti are part of the medical waste incinerated and used as an energy source, as you point out. I'm pointing out that is something I would not be comfortable with if I was a patient in such a hospital whatever my views on abortion would be.


  • #34
    Ihatecuddles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,986 ✭✭✭Ihatecuddles


    urabell wrote: »
    They're not in the body any more, their eternal soul has gone off somewhere else (possibly a fiery pit) so why does it matter how their shell is treated?

    Why do we bury anyone then?

    Of course it matters, some of these babies died in tragic circumstances, parents never knowing anything of them other than the 'shell'.


  • #35
    robman60
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,233 ✭✭✭robman60


    urabell wrote: »
    They're not in the body any more, their eternal soul has gone off somewhere else (possibly a fiery pit) so why does it matter how their shell is treated?
    Not in a religious way, but that comment is kind of horrible I think, even if the part in brackets was just said jokingly.


  • #36
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    urabell wrote: »
    They're not in the body any more, their eternal soul has gone off somewhere else (possibly a fiery pit) so why does it matter how their shell is treated?


    Clearly it doesn't matter to you, but to a lot of people it does actually matter, to them it's not just 'a shell'.


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  • #37
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    mauzo! wrote: »
    Its not just abortions, its miscarriages too. Babies that are very much wanted and seen as babies and not a bunch of cells.

    There are plenty of rituals and ceremonies for that, but in the cases where the putative baby looks like a lump of cells with no recognisable human features, you'd have a coffin the size of a matchbox.


  • #38
    Ihatecuddles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,986 ✭✭✭Ihatecuddles


    Muise... wrote: »
    There are plenty of rituals and ceremonies for that, but in the cases where the putative baby looks like a lump of cells with no recognisable human features, you'd have a coffin the size of a matchbox.

    Makes zero difference. The parents still see it as their baby.


  • #39
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    mauzo! wrote: »
    Why do we bury anyone then?

    Of course it matters, some of these babies died in tragic circumstances, parents never knowing anything of them other than the 'shell'.

    Started out to keep predators/disease away from the human encampment. Then along came religion with ceremony's idea of soul and such like. Different cultures treat their dead in different ways. American Indians put them on high pedestals to be picked clean by birds. Some used to bury them in the house so you could be close to your ancestors.


  • #40
    urabell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 559 ✭✭✭urabell


    mauzo! wrote: »
    Why do we bury anyone then?

    Of course it matters, some of these babies died in tragic circumstances, parents never knowing anything of them other than the 'shell'.

    Their soul is gone on to the afterlife though
    robman60 wrote: »
    Not in a religious way, but that comment is kind of horrible I think, even if the part in brackets was just said jokingly.

    Psalm 51:5 states that we all come into the world as sinners: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me."
    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Clearly it doesn't matter to you, but to a lot of people it does actually matter, to them it's not just 'a shell'.

    Why would I post anything other than my opinion on a forum?


  • #41
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    mauzo! wrote: »
    Makes zero difference. The parents still see it as their baby.

    They can see it any way they want, but the usual forms of burial may not be practicable for the unborn. If they are, this could be taken up with the authorities, if not it's not as though they have to watch the incineration.


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  • #42
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    Are they actually used to "heat" hospitals or is that just a provocative title?
    what do people assume ordinarily happens to discarded foeti? Do they expect the NHS to post them off in parcels marked 'heaven'?
    No?


  • #43
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Muise... wrote: »
    The emotional resonance of an elective abortion tends to be relief, Donkey, not grief and a need for a ceremonial disposal of the 'bunch of cells'.

    No doubt.

    But you misunderstand me. There are degrees of emotional resonance, and Whoopsie asked why disposing of an aborted foetus could be considered to be any different to other bodily parts.

    I'm saying I can understand how people can be upset by these things, not that they should be upset by these things.


  • #44
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Are they actually used to "heat" hospitals or is that just a provocative title?

    No?

    Really provocative title for a thread linking an article that conflates abortion, miscarriage and stillbirth, and quotes a spokesperson from a charity that helps people cope with stillbirth and neonatal death.


  • #45
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    urabell wrote: »
    Why would I post anything other than my opinion on a forum?


    I meant that while you as an individual clearly don't agree with the dignified disposal of remains, there are many more people who would want to know that the disposal of the remains of their aborted foetus were handled with dignity. It means something to them, and abortions in hospitals are more times non-elective abortions for medical reasons as opposed to elective abortions carried out in a clinic for non-medical reasons.

    The parents rights and beliefs also need to be respected at a time which is already traumatic enough for them. The medical profession may refer to aborted foetuses as clinical or medical waste, but most parents aren't members of the medical profession, and for them the 'shell' you refer to may have had far more significance than simply religious undertones.


  • #46
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Muise... wrote: »
    They can see it any way they want, but the usual forms of burial may not be practicable for the unborn. If they are, this could be taken up with the authorities, if not it's not as though they have to watch the incineration.


    That's the whole point of the Dispatches programme and this article, is that parents weren't being offered this choice, but instead the aborted foetuses were simply being discarded by incineration alongside other medical waste.


  • #47
    urabell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 559 ✭✭✭urabell


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Are they actually used to "heat" hospitals or is that just a provocative title?

    No?

    ''Channel 4 Dispatches programme says 10 NHS trusts have been burning remains alongside rubbish.

    It claims two more disposed of bodies in incinerators used to heat hospitals.''

    I sampled a quote from the article to make the title, more emotive than provocative

    What do you think happens then? Do us a favour and come up with something better than splitting hairs between incineration and cremation


  • #48
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    That's the whole point of the Dispatches programme and this article, is that parents weren't being offered this choice, but instead the aborted foetuses were simply being discarded by incineration alongside other medical waste.

    Fair enough. Living in a choice-free country, I tend to assume that 'abortion' means elective, in which case I'd care about the remains as much as the period I had last week.


  • #49
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 53,068 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Apologies, I did assume also that these were unwanted pregnancies.

    Bad assumption on my part.


  • #50
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,450 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    urabell wrote: »
    ''Channel 4 Dispatches programme says 10 NHS trusts have been burning remains alongside rubbish.

    It claims two more disposed of bodies in incinerators used to heat hospitals.''

    I sampled a quote from the article to make the title, more emotive than provocative

    What do you think happens then? Do us a favour and come up with something better than splitting hairs between incineration and cremation

    It was a valid question.
    The media have a habit of creating provocative titles to articles.


  • #51
    Freddie Dodge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭Freddie Dodge


    wendell borton wrote: »
    "A human foetus, with no more human feeling than an
    amoeba, enjoys a reverence and legal protection far in excess of those
    granted to an adult chimpanzee. Yet the chimp feels and thinks and-
    according to recent experimental evidence-may even be capable of
    learning a form of human language. The foetus belongs to our own
    species, and is instantly accorded special privileges and rights because of
    it."
    -Richard Dawkins

    With all due respect to your belief in the "Church Of Dawkins", it has no place in this discussion.


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  • #52
    urabell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 559 ✭✭✭urabell


    El Guapo! wrote: »
    It was a valid question.
    The media have a habit of creating provocative titles to articles.

    That's why it's always best to read an article before coming down on either side of the title :)


  • #53
    Femme_Fatale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,628 ✭✭✭Femme_Fatale


    I read the BBC article you linked to; I saw nothing about heating hospitals with foeti.


  • #54
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Muise... wrote: »
    The emotional resonance of an elective abortion tends to be relief, Donkey, not grief and a need for a ceremonial disposal of the 'bunch of cells'.

    Muise... wrote: »
    Fair enough. Living in a choice-free country, I tend to assume that 'abortion' means elective, in which case I'd care about the remains as much as the period I had last week.


    Muise with all due respect I would urge you to have a look at some of the recent threads started by women who have had both elective and non-elective abortions, and it may give you some insight as to why for many women an abortion leaves mental scarring that affects them much deeper than any physical scars and certainly has a much more significant bearing on their lives than just the period you had last week.


  • #55
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Muise with all due respect I would urge you to have a look at some of the recent threads started by women who have had both elective and non-elective abortions, and it may give you some insight as to why for many women an abortion leaves mental scarring that affects them much deeper than any physical scars and certainly has a much more significant bearing on their lives than just the period you had last week.

    Now who's assuming? :)


  • #56
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Muise... wrote: »
    Now who's assuming? :)


    I haven't assumed anything, their posts are there in black and white. I won't link to them.


  • #57
    urabell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 559 ✭✭✭urabell


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Muise with all due respect I would urge you to have a look at some of the recent threads started by women who have had both elective and non-elective abortions, and it may give you some insight as to why for many women an abortion leaves mental scarring that affects them much deeper than any physical scars and certainly has a much more significant bearing on their lives than just the period you had last week.

    They're in the minority though, still I feel for them deeply

    Nearly 90% of Irish people are Christian and know their baby's have went to a better place.

    John 3:16 ESV /

    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    ''I would now like to say a special word to women who have had an abortion. The Church is aware of the many factors which may have influenced your decision, and she does not doubt that in many cases it was a painful and even shattering decision. The wound in your heart may not yet have healed. Certainly what happened was and remains terribly wrong. But do not give in to discouragement and do not lose hope. Try rather to understand what happened and face it honestly. If you have not already done so, give yourselves over with humility and trust to repentance. The Father of mercies is ready to give you his forgiveness and his peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.'' Pope JP II


  • #58
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Muise with all due respect I would urge you to have a look at some of the recent threads started by women who have had both elective and non-elective abortions, and it may give you some insight as to why for many women an abortion leaves mental scarring that affects them much deeper than any physical scars and certainly has a much more significant bearing on their lives than just the period you had last week.

    A small section of women on a forum cannot be taken as the consensus for all women. Different people feel different things. An emotive opinion does not make it anymore valid.


  • #59
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    I haven't assumed anything, their posts are there in black and white. I won't link to them.

    Czar, you assumed I needed insight into how women feel after abortions. I don't, thanks.
    urabell wrote: »
    They're in the minority though, still I feel for them deeply

    Nearly 90% of Irish people are Christian and know their baby's have went to a better place.

    John 3:16 ESV /

    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    ''I would now like to say a special word to women who have had an abortion. The Church is aware of the many factors which may have influenced your decision, and she does not doubt that in many cases it was a painful and even shattering decision. The wound in your heart may not yet have healed. Certainly what happened was and remains terribly wrong. But do not give in to discouragement and do not lose hope. Try rather to understand what happened and face it honestly. If you have not already done so, give yourselves over with humility and trust to repentance. The Father of mercies is ready to give you his forgiveness and his peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.'' Pope JP II

    *gets popcorn jelly babies.


  • #60
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    urabell wrote: »
    They're in the minority though, still I feel for them deeply


    Women who have been affected by having had an abortion are in a minority?

    Nearly 90% of Irish people are Christian and know their baby's have went to a better place.


    From your own link, this happened in the UK (the only link you can make with Irish people is the women that have to travel to the UK for an elective abortion, and they have elective abortions in clinics, not in hospitals), and this has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with medical ethics.


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  • #61
    urabell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 559 ✭✭✭urabell


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Women who have been affected by having had an abortion are in a minority?





    From your own link, this happened in the UK (the only link you can make with Irish people is the women that have to travel to the UK for an elective abortion, and they have elective abortions in clinics, not in hospitals), and this has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with medical ethics.

    We've moved on to your emotional forum women though, I was pointing out that they are outside the Christian majority else they would find comfort in our Lord Father in heaven and not strangers on the internet


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