My little victim

Electric Sheep · 19-03-2014 06:05PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Because most people can maintain a sense of perspective which helps them understand the difference between slagging/messing and bullying. Most people don't want to live in a sanitised society where they are forced to be nice to each other.

Would you like to live in a world where you had to conform to being nice all the time, where you couldn't express your diversity, where everyone behaved exactly the same?

Have you always been respectful to everyone you've ever met?

If your free will to ignore somebody was taken away and you were forced to be polite to everyone, is that the society you want to live in?

It's never going to exist because not everyone is going to like you, and not everyone is going to agree with you. Society is diverse already, and you want society to conform to your ideal? That standard would also apply to you then, and if you want that society, then lead by example, but don't force your ideals on everyone else. That's just bullying people to conform to your ideals so you can be comfortable and rid yourself of your insecurity.

I'm sure you're familiar with the term 'personal responsibility'.

Saying "I am only slagging/messing" is the Irish way to put the blame on the bullied rather than the bully.

Nobody is forcing you to be nice - you should have the cop on to make yourself do it.

Czarcasm · 19-03-2014 06:17PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Saying "I am only slagging/messing" is the Irish way to put the blame on the bullied rather than the bully.

No it's not. It's the universal way of saying I'm only slagging/messing. Bullying requires a much more sinister motivation behind it.

Nobody is forcing you to be nice - you should have the cop on to make yourself do it.

By that same token, you should have the cop on to know the difference between messing and bullying. Some people don't share the same ideas as you about being nice, they'll be nice to who they want to be nice to, that's the essence of diversity. Tolerance goes both ways.

Electric Sheep · 19-03-2014 06:29PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

If your free will to ignore somebody was taken away and you were forced to be polite to everyone, is that the society you want to live in?

But you are not talking about ignoring, you are talking about being nasty. Why not ignore instead of "slagging"?

Pumpkinseeds · 19-03-2014 06:39PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Because most people can maintain a sense of perspective which helps them understand the difference between slagging/messing and bullying. Most people don't want to live in a sanitised society where they are forced to be nice to each other.

Would you like to live in a world where you had to conform to being nice all the time, where you couldn't express your diversity, where everyone behaved exactly the same?

Have you always been respectful to everyone you've ever met?

If your free will to ignore somebody was taken away and you were forced to be polite to everyone, is that the society you want to live in?

It's never going to exist because not everyone is going to like you, and not everyone is going to agree with you. Society is diverse already, and you want society to conform to your ideal? That standard would also apply to you then, and if you want that society, then lead by example, but don't force your ideals on everyone else. That's just bullying people to conform to your ideals so you can be comfortable and rid yourself of your insecurity.

I'm sure you're familiar with the term 'personal responsibility'.

Now you've gone and done it, can open, worms everywhere. Don't you know that nobody is allowed to take personal responsibility for anything anymore. Brace yourself.

RayM · 19-03-2014 06:42PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

No it's not. It's the universal way of saying I'm only slagging/messing. Bullying requires a much more sinister motivation behind it.

When I was at school, any verbal bullying I ever witnessed started out as slagging/messing. When it becomes persistent and the target feels powerless to stop it, it's bullying. Far from having a sinister motivation, the perpetrators often don't even realise that they're bullying someone. To them, it's 'just a bit of slagging', and the victim - if they have the self-confidence to make an issue of it - is overreacting.

Electric Sheep · 19-03-2014 06:56PM

RayM wrote: »

When I was at school, any verbal bullying I ever witnessed started out as slagging/messing. When it becomes persistent and the target feels powerless to stop it, it's bullying. Far from having a sinister motivation, the perpetrators often don't even realise that they're bullying someone. To them, it's 'just a bit of slagging', and the victim - if they have the self-confidence to make an issue of it - is overreacting.

At which point the bully accuses the bullied of "getting thick". The bully denies any personal responsibility for his own behaviour.

Shanotheslayer · 19-03-2014 07:06PM

Do some people not understand that the parents could of sat down with the kid and explained he might be builled? Like Jesus, it's the equivalent of going to secondary school and having a pink school bag. Common sense would say, well just get a blue bag(For example). Parents could of prevented most of this happening.

Electric Sheep · 19-03-2014 07:10PM

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Do some people not understand that the parents could of sat down with the kid and explained he might be builled? Like Jesus, it's the equivalent of going to secondary school and having a pink school bag. Common sense would say, well just get a blue bag(For example). Parents could of prevented most of this happening.

Could the parents of the bullies not sit down with them and explain that bullying is unacceptable? I agree, Parents could have prevented most of this from happening.

RayM · 19-03-2014 07:12PM

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Do some people not understand that the parents could of sat down with the kid and explained he might be builled? Like Jesus, it's the equivalent of going to secondary school and having a pink school bag. Common sense would say, well just get a blue bag(For example). Parents could of prevented most of this happening.

Alternatively, the parents of kids who might bully someone for being different could of have sat down with their kids and explained that bullying is wrong. Why is that such a crazy idea? Why must the blame be laid at the victim's door?

Czarcasm · 19-03-2014 07:20PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

But you are not talking about ignoring, you are talking about being nasty. Why not ignore instead of "slagging"?

I am talking about ignoring! Ignoring someone can also be perceived as bullying them. That's not 'nice'. If you ignore someone then, this can be perceived as isolating them, and if the whole office ignores them for fear of being accused of bullying them, they can still be accused of bullying!

RayM wrote: »

When I was at school, any verbal bullying I ever witnessed started out as slagging/messing. When it becomes persistent and the target feels powerless to stop it, it's bullying.

Absolutely, when the slagging/messing is only going one way, then yes, it's bullying.

Far from having a sinister motivation, the perpetrators often don't even realise that they're bullying someone. To them, it's 'just a bit of slagging', and the victim - if they have the self-confidence to make an issue of it - is overreacting.

The motivation behind bullying is the intention to intimidate, and if a person isn't aware their behaviour is intimidating, they're hardly a bully?

It's not over-reacting if the person isn't over-reacting. Whether they could be considered over-reacting or not, is entirely dependent on the context of the situation, and in the situation in the OP, the mother is indeed over-reacting.

Czarcasm · 19-03-2014 07:32PM

RayM wrote: »

Alternatively, the parents of kids who might bully someone for being different could of have sat down with their kids and explained that bullying is wrong. Why is that such a crazy idea? Why must the blame be laid at the victim's door?

In a post decrying bullying behaviour, you really think it's a good idea to engage in spelling and grammar pedantry to make fun of another poster?

Am I bullying you now by pointing out to you that you were bullying another poster?*

*I wouldn't call it bullying, but by your own standards, that's exactly what you were doing.

RayM · 19-03-2014 07:49PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

The motivation behind bullying is the intention to intimidate, and if a person isn't aware their behaviour is intimidating, they're hardly a bully?

There are a lot of myths about bullying in schools. Sometimes there is no motivation behind it. It's often just borne out of thoughtless idiocy, and those responsible lack the maturity to understand the profound damage they might be causing. If you believe that you're just engaging in a bit of harmless slagging, you aren't going to equate your behaviour with intimidation.

Czarcasm · 19-03-2014 08:07PM

RayM wrote: »

There are a lot of myths about bullying in schools. Sometimes there is no motivation behind it. It's often just borne out of thoughtless idiocy, and those responsible lack the maturity to understand the profound damage they might be causing. If you believe that you're just engaging in a bit of harmless slagging, you aren't going to equate your behaviour with intimidation.

What was the motivation behind your correcting another posters grammar, or was it just thoughtless idiocy on your part?

Do you lack the maturity to understand the profound damage you may be causing, not just to the poster you targeted, but to other posters reading your post who may have learning difficulties, such as dyslexia for example?

If you believe you were just engaging in harmless slagging, you aren't going to equate your behaviour with intimidation.

h2005 · 19-03-2014 08:22PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Could the parents of the bullies not sit down with them and explain that bullying is unacceptable? I agree, Parents could have prevented most of this from happening.

Of course they should but also it is the responsiblity of parents to do what they can to protect their child. The parents of the child here failed to do that.

lynski · 19-03-2014 08:31PM

Here is an irish one for you: 10 yr old not into GAA or Soccer in a sports mad school getting badly bullied, schools response? told the parents to take more of an interest in the GAA and the son might come around too. ie conform, conform, conform. parents changed schools to a less sports mad one, son could not be happier.

We are raising individuals not drones.

“It's not our job to toughen our children up to face a cruel and heartless world. It's our job to raise children who will make the world a little less cruel and heartless.”

― L.R. Knost, Two Thousand Kisses a Day: Gentle Parenting Through the Ages and Stages

RayM · 19-03-2014 08:33PM

h2005 wrote: »

Of course they should but also it is the responsiblity of parents to do what they can to protect their child. The parents of the child here failed to do that.

Telling him that he is the one who needs to change, simply because of other people's bad behaviour, would be wrong.

h2005 · 19-03-2014 08:37PM

RayM wrote: »

Telling him that he is the one who needs to change, simply because of other people's bad behaviour, would be wrong.

You`re right there was other ways for them to approach it. Do you think the child is better off now?

RayM · 19-03-2014 08:39PM

h2005 wrote: »

You`re right there was other ways for them to approach it. Do you think the child is better off now?

I definitely think his school is under a lot more pressure to adopt a more sensible approach to bullying; one that doesn't involve victim-blaming.

h2005 · 19-03-2014 08:40PM

RayM wrote: »

I definitely think his school is under a lot more pressure to adopt a more sensible approach to bullying; one that doesn't involve victim-blaming.

I`d be more focused on the well being of the child. Nice swerve.

RayM · 19-03-2014 08:43PM

h2005 wrote: »

I`d be more focused on the well being of the child. Nice swerve.

No swerve at all. Just to clarify - I think he's better off. But I also think that other kids at his school, who might be targets for bullying in the future, will be better off too.

Electric Sheep · 19-03-2014 08:43PM

h2005 wrote: »

You`re right there was other ways for them to approach it. Do you think the child is better off now?

Yes.

Pumpkinseeds · 19-03-2014 08:46PM

lynski wrote: »

Here is an irish one for you: 10 yr old not into GAA or Soccer in a sports mad school getting badly bullied, schools response? told the parents to take more of an interest in the GAA and the son might come around too. ie conform, conform, conform. parents changed schools to a less sports mad one, son could not be happier.

We are raising individuals not drones.

“It's not our job to toughen our children up to face a cruel and heartless world. It's our job to raise children who will make the world a little less cruel and heartless.”

― L.R. Knost, Two Thousand Kisses a Day: Gentle Parenting Through the Ages and Stages

Nice theory, but a tad unrealistic. It sounds very 'wouldn't it be nice if everyone were nice'. Not everyone is nice and part of a parents job is to toughen up their child to be able to cope with a tough world.

Irish Guitarist · 19-03-2014 08:54PM

When I was about ten years old I went through a brief phase of reading Care Bears comics. I did this in the comfort of my own home and didn't feel the need to broadcast it to my school. I didn't even mention it to any of my friends.

The mother should say to the child "you can play with whatever toys you like or watch whatever television programmes you want to at home but there's no need to let everyone know about it. it's really not worth getting beaten up over a bag".

The fact is he's going to be bullied. If it's not children in his own school he's going to be bullied by other children when walking home from school some day. Saying it shouldn't happen is all well and good but it is going to happen and when it does his Facebook supporters won't be there to protect him.

Czarcasm · 19-03-2014 09:01PM

lynski wrote: »

Here is an irish one for you: 10 yr old not into GAA or Soccer in a sports mad school getting badly bullied, schools response? told the parents to take more of an interest in the GAA and the son might come around too. ie conform, conform, conform. parents changed schools to a less sports mad one, son could not be happier.

I'm sure you asked them why did they enroll the child in a sports mad school in the first place if there was a less sports mad school available? If the child becomes disinterested in another subject in school, will the parents say the child doesn't have to participate in class if they don't want to?

We are raising individuals not drones.

There's a world of a difference between an individual and a person with a bewildering sense of entitlement that thinks the world should revolve around them.

“It's not our job to toughen our children up to face a cruel and heartless world. It's our job to raise children who will make the world a little less cruel and heartless.”

― L.R. Knost, Two Thousand Kisses a Day: Gentle Parenting Through the Ages and Stages

"It's not our job to enable children to think the world revolves around them. It's our job to guide children in becoming mature, productive members of society"

- Czarcasm, Because drones are famous for parroting other people's opinions; I prefer to form an opinion of my own and express my opinion as an individual.

CrazyRabbit · 19-03-2014 09:29PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I don't get why you feel the need to insult people to make your point either tbh. But how and ever anyway, people are going to be bullied, it's a fact. It's not nice, but it's a fact. The sensible thing to do is not make yourself any more of a target.

This isn't Rosa Parks or Harvey Milk type stuff, this is all because the child knowingly makes themselves a target. A person can't change the color of their skin or their sexual orientation. What they can do though, is think about the consequences of their actions, or their parents (Where's the father in this actually?) think about the consequences of their actions for their children.

If a child insists on making themselves a target, and the parents insist on the child's right to be a target, well, somebody has to step in and let common sense prevail at some point, and in this case the school did the right thing for the sake of the child, even if the parents don't see that. Why would they, their child is now a little celebrity, and child stars always turn out well rounded members of society, right?

I didn't insult anyone. I merely stated that people who are of the same opinion as you/h2005 are part of the overall problem.

And "this is all because the child knowingly makes themselves a target" is my point exactly. You are apportioning blame to the victim. The blame is 100% with the bullies. Those same bullies who will attack/insult other kids who just happen to be different in some way.

Stop making excuses for the bullies, as there are no excuses.

CrazyRabbit · 19-03-2014 09:35PM

h2005 wrote: »

You know nothing about me. I never mentioned anything about clothes or being gay. I pointed out that by letting the child go to school with the lunchbox left him open as a target. Any parent with a bit of cop on would agree with that. Kids can be very cruel. I never said I agree with them.

So it's the boys fault, or his parents fault. No doubt the bullies would say exactly the same thing.

AtomicHorror · 19-03-2014 09:50PM

lynski wrote: »

Here is an irish one for you: 10 yr old not into GAA or Soccer in a sports mad school getting badly bullied, schools response? told the parents to take more of an interest in the GAA and the son might come around too. ie conform, conform, conform. parents changed schools to a less sports mad one, son could not be happier.

We are raising individuals not drones.

“It's not our job to toughen our children up to face a cruel and heartless world. It's our job to raise children who will make the world a little less cruel and heartless.”

― L.R. Knost, Two Thousand Kisses a Day: Gentle Parenting Through the Ages and Stages

I think that pretty much wins it for me.

AtomicHorror · 19-03-2014 09:54PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

"It's not our job to enable children to think the world revolves around them. It's our job to guide children in becoming mature, productive members of society"

- Czarcasm, Because drones are famous for parroting other people's opinions; I prefer to form an opinion of my own and express my opinion as an individual.

And what happens when some people turn against your for it, mock you and threaten you for it? What happens when the authorities tell you that in order to protect you from those people, they will need you to stop voicing your opinion?

Will you do as you're told or will you stand up?

Czarcasm · 19-03-2014 10:27PM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

I didn't insult anyone. I merely stated that people who are of the same opinion as you/h2005 are part of the overall problem.

I perceived your comment as insulting, you don't have the right to decide how I should feel, and calling me part of an overall problem is insulting.

See now how your own definition of bullying could work against you? I know only too well you weren't insulting me or bullying me, but a more sensitive sort could have said what I said above and you could hardly be held responsible for that.

And "this is all because the child knowingly makes themselves a target" is my point exactly. You are apportioning blame to the victim. The blame is 100% with the bullies. Those same bullies who will attack/insult other kids who just happen to be different in some way.

I'm saying the child should be taught to take responsibility for their behaviour, and if they knowingly make themselves a target for children who are known to engage in bullying behaviour, then they have to learn to take responsibility for that. The children engaging in bullying behaviour are also responsible for their behaviour. The school has to mediate in the situation to ensure a successful outcome that will satisfy all parties. That will require compromises be made by all parties involved. School authorities suggested the child leave the lunch box at home, it hasn't been reported what reprimands were given to the children engaging in bullying behaviour. We're only hearing one side of the story.

Stop making excuses for the bullies, as there are no excuses.

I'm not making excuses for the other children involved who engaged in bullying behaviour. I've stated clearly that they too must be held responsible for their actions and reprimanded appropriately. That isn't likely to happen now because the child's mother approached the media and there was a Facebook support page set up to publicise the incident, when the more appropriate course of action would have been to approach the school authorities and work with them to reach a resolution that would benefit all the children involved.

Czarcasm · 20-03-2014 12:25AM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

And what happens when some people turn against your for it, mock you and threaten you for it?

I've gone through the appropriate channels and engaged in the process with the relevant authorities to reach a satisfactory resolution. A typical example is here on Boards where they have numerous processes in place to deal with conflict resolution.

What happens when the authorities tell you that in order to protect you from those people, they will need you to stop voicing your opinion?

I've had to accept and respect their decision having placed my trust in them that they know what they're doing. Often times a resolution is not immediate, but can take time, and my contribution may be taken into account in building a case to resolve the situation.

Will you do as you're told or will you stand up?

I won't get my knickers in a twist and over-react doing damage to my own case if that's what you mean? I know that I won't be taken seriously if I over-react, which is exactly what happened here in the case of the OP. Because of the mother's actions, her child will learn nothing about conflict resolution, and the other children will just learn to be more underhanded and sneaky so as not to get caught. They too have learned nothing about conflict resolution.

My little victim

Comments