Atheists can be assholes too sometimes

Brian Shanahan · 18-03-2014 12:00AM

Gordon wrote: »

Was the positioning of the cross against the constitution of the United States?

The placing of religious symbols on public (i.e. government) property breaks the wall of separation clause of the First Ammendment.

ardmacha · 18-03-2014 12:12AM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

The placing of religious symbols on public (i.e. government) property breaks the wall of separation clause of the First Ammendment.

Who owns this place then?

Roadside memorials have road safety implications and should not be allowed indefinitely in any case, but when someone dies others should not try and make political advantage out of them.

Hotblack Desiato · 18-03-2014 03:07AM

J C wrote: »

dragging a grieving mother through the courts to prove some arcane point of controversial law.

Naked, worthless, appeal to emotion argument. It doesn't matter who put up the cross.

Hotblack Desiato · 18-03-2014 03:10AM

ardmacha wrote: »

Who owns this place then?

Those are actual graves, not tacky roadside memorials.
The crosses (and six pointed stars) are there at the request of the relatives involved and/or the religious declaration of the serviceman concerned.
They permit athiest/non-religious as a declaration today, but I don't know what the grave symbol would be.

smacl · 18-03-2014 08:12AM

ninja900 wrote: »

Those are actual graves, not tacky roadside memorials.
The crosses (and six pointed stars) are there at the request of the relatives involved and/or the religious declaration of the serviceman concerned.
They permit athiest/non-religious as a declaration today, but I don't know what the grave symbol would be.

Didn't notice the six pointed stars. Finding them was a bit like a graveside version of Where's Wally.

J C · 18-03-2014 09:04AM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

The placing of religious symbols on public (i.e. government) property breaks the wall of separation clause of the First Ammendment.

... or perhaps not, after all ...
http://jewishhumanist.blogspot.ie/2013/07/atheists-unveil-monument-near-ten.html

Brian Shanahan · 18-03-2014 11:36AM

ardmacha wrote: »

Who owns this place then?

Roadside memorials have road safety implications and should not be allowed indefinitely in any case, but when someone dies others should not try and make political advantage out of them.

Last time I checked the US hadn't (yet) conquered the country of Luxemburg, where the cemetary pictured is situated. As an independent country the US constitution doesn't have any legal basis in Luxemburg.

Here is a nice picture of an American cemetary on state property, used to house (for want of a better term) the corpses of dead US soldiers:

Please note the lack of crosses. There is nary a one in Arlington, the national cemetary.

But then again ardmacha, what use is the truth when you can lie?

Cabaal · 18-03-2014 04:10PM

robindch · 18-03-2014 04:15PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

[...] when you can lie?

Unparliamentary language - none of that, please.

Brian Shanahan · 18-03-2014 04:33PM

robindch wrote: »

Unparliamentary language - none of that, please.

It's not my fault he obviously misrepresented Luxemburg as America. I didn't make him do it.

gaynorvader · 18-03-2014 04:47PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

It's not my fault he obviously misrepresented Luxemburg as America. I didn't make him do it.

Give them the benefit of the doubt, perhaps it was an honest mistake. They probably just typed american graveyard into Google or something.

Brian Shanahan · 18-03-2014 04:58PM

gaynorvader wrote: »

Give them the benefit of the doubt, perhaps it was an honest mistake. They probably just typed american graveyard into Google or something.

This is the url of the picture:

http: //obtuseobserver.com/wp-content/uploads/2010 /11/LUXEMBOURG-AMERICAN-CEMETERY-AND-MEMORIAL.jpg

It took me five seconds to find the url and five more to confirm that the world "Luxembourg" was in the url because the cemetary was situated in Luxemburg.

I did have a slight advantage, because I did remember that Dick Cheney tried to pull off the same lie back in 2003, by suggesting he saw the "crosses lined in a row" every time he took a helicopter ride to the White House, passing off Flanders Fields as Arlington National Cemetary.

J C · 18-03-2014 07:30PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Last time I checked the US hadn't (yet) conquered the country of Luxemburg,
... As an independent country the US constitution doesn't have any legal basis in Luxemburg.

... But then again ardmacha, what use is the truth when you can lie?

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

It took me five seconds to find the url and five more to confirm that the world "Luxembourg" was in the url because the cemetary was situated in Luxemburg.

... would Atlanta, Georgia qualify, in your mind, as somewhere where the US Constitution's writ runs?
http://christiannews.net/2014/03/16/georgia-lawmakers-approve-bill-to-place-ten-commandments-monument-at-state-capitol/

... or how about Starke, Florida?
http://jewishhumanist.blogspot.ie/2013/07/atheists-unveil-monument-near-ten.html

I had my doubts about the veracity of the OP ... now I'm not so sure.:D

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

It took me five seconds to find the url and five more to confirm that the world "Luxembourg" was in the url because the cemetary was situated in Luxemburg.

Very good ... now try googling pictures of Arlington Headstones!!;)

J C · 18-03-2014 07:47PM

wrote:

Originally Posted by Brian Shanahan
Please note the lack of crosses. There is nary a one in Arlington, the national cemetary.

But then again ardmacha, what use is the truth when you can lie?

Here are some photos of headstones in Arlington National Cemetery ... complete with religious symbols including Christian crosses ...
https://www.google.ie/search?q=photos+of+headstones+in+arlington+national+cemetery&client=firefox-a&hs=uyf&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=lJMoU7DxHpKv7AaMlICQDg&ved=0CDoQsAQ&biw=1338&bih=666&dpr=0.9
... methinks you owe ardmacha and apology for calling him a liar ... when he was correct about both Luxembourg ... and America.

Brian Shanahan · 18-03-2014 07:58PM

Edit: Never mind, I keep forgetting it's pointless trying to talk with JC. He just tries to twist everything to match his warped and fallacious view of the world.

J C · 18-03-2014 08:01PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

As you well know, states within the US can and do try and pass laws which are illegal under the US constitution. In both cases you cite laws which are illegal under the US constitution, so thanks for making my point for me.

Here's the thing ... I don't think they are illegal ... did you see the crosses (and other religious symbols) on the headstones in Arlington yet?
... just what you would expect in a country that values freedom of religion ... as distinct from the Atheistic Regimes, like the one in the former Soviet Union, that enforced freedom from religion.

J C · 18-03-2014 08:05PM

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Edit: Never mind, I keep forgetting it's pointless trying to talk with JC. He just tries to twist everything to match his warped and fallacious view of the world.

Come on and apologise to ardmacha ... and stop making excuses.:)
We all make mistakes.

Gordon · 18-03-2014 08:10PM

J C wrote: »

... would Atlanta, Georgia qualify, in your mind, as somewhere where the US Constitution's writ runs?
http://christiannews.net/2014/03/16/georgia-lawmakers-approve-bill-to-place-ten-commandments-monument-at-state-capitol/

Well, this hasn't been signed by the Governor yet, so it may still be early days. Especially when:

Henson had told his fellow lawmakers that he feared that the state would lose in court if the monument was challenged.

So it looks like it won't happen if it's challenged as far as I understand that.

... or how about Starke, Florida?
http://jewishhumanist.blogspot.ie/2013/07/atheists-unveil-monument-near-ten.html

I'm surprised that they would allow an atheist monument given the constitution, although, it was preceded (and sits next to) a Christian monument.

Sometimes I just don't get America

recedite · 18-03-2014 08:13PM

J C wrote: »

... would Atlanta, Georgia qualify, in your mind, as somewhere where the US Constitution's writ runs?
http://christiannews.net/2014/03/16/georgia-lawmakers-approve-bill-to-place-ten-commandments-monument-at-state-capitol/

... or how about Starke, Florida?
http://jewishhumanist.blogspot.ie/2013/07/atheists-unveil-monument-near-ten.html

Well that is interesting alright JC.
There seems to be a "fad" recently in The South for installing the ten commandments outside state buildings, paid for with private subscriptions. The whole thing is on the very edge of legality, but they seem to have introduced a new concept just to allow it, called "Free Speech Zones". So the idea seems to be that anyone and everyone can put up their monument in these limited areas designated as free speech zones. Its getting close to permitting "public nuisance" as we called it earlier in this thread, albeit only in limited areas.
As the guy backing it says himself, its very close to being illegal in a federal court, even if fully supported in a southern courthouse.

While some legislators expressed concerns regarding the separation of church and state, others asserted that the monument is lawful and follows the long-held Christian traditions of the nation.
“There will be no taxpayer funds that go with this. This will be raised by private parties,” Senator John Albers explained, according to local radio station WABE. “I believe this would be an excellent addition to our Capitol grounds.”
“Knowing that we put ‘In God We Trust’ on our money, and we are a Judeo-Christian nation, and we are proud of those beliefs, wouldn’t you further agree that if a private party wants to put a statue with private funds to honor God and his commandments that we as a legislature should support that?” he asked Democratic Senate Minority Leader Steve Henson.
Henson had told his fellow lawmakers that he feared that the state would lose in court if the monument was challenged...

Re Arlington, the headstones are secular, emphasizing that they all fought together for their country, not their religion.
Individual names and faiths are naturally acknowledged on the headstones.

Delirium · 18-03-2014 08:16PM

J C wrote: »

Here are some photos of headstones in Arlington National Cemetery ... complete with religious symbols including Christian crosses ...
https://www.google.ie/search?q=photos+of+headstones+in+arlington+national+cemetery&client=firefox-a&hs=uyf&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=lJMoU7DxHpKv7AaMlICQDg&ved=0CDoQsAQ&biw=1338&bih=666&dpr=0.9
... methinks you owe ardmacha and apology for calling him a liar ... when he was correct about both Luxembourg ... and America.

None of the headstones in Arlington (based on the link you provided) are Christian crosses. They are all flat headstones with a variety of religious symbols such as Wiccan, Islam, Muslim, Hindu, various Christian denominations as well as one for Humanism.

ardmacha was incorrect when he/she stated that Christian crosses were provided for all graves.

J C · 18-03-2014 08:35PM

SW wrote: »

None of the headstones in Arlington (based on the link you provided) are Christian crosses. They are all flat headstones with a variety of religious symbols such as Wiccan, Islam, Muslim, Hindu, various Christian denominations as well as one for Humanism.

ardmacha was incorrect when he/she stated that Christian crosses were provided for all graves.

OK ... so the headstones aren't crosses themselves ... they just have crosses engraved on themselves.

Sounds like a fallacious argument and grasping at pedantic straws ... to me!!!:eek:

Ardmacha was perfectly correct in his core point that religious symbols (including Christian crosses) are allowed on public property in the US.

Pherekydes · 18-03-2014 08:40PM

J C wrote: »

Here are some photos of headstones in Arlington National Cemetery ... complete with religious symbols including Christian crosses ...
https://www.google.ie/search?q=photos+of+headstones+in+arlington+national+cemetery&client=firefox-a&hs=uyf&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=lJMoU7DxHpKv7AaMlICQDg&ved=0CDoQsAQ&biw=1338&bih=666&dpr=0.9
... methinks you owe ardmacha and apology for calling him a liar ... when he was correct about both Luxembourg ... and America.

Ah, but JC, they're not crosses!!!! They are just pictures of crosses!!!!! ...

And here's an ellipsis or two!!! ... ...

Pherekydes · 18-03-2014 08:42PM

J C wrote: »

Even the US money is based on trusting in God ...

That doesn't imply that that god is the Christian God!!!

J C · 18-03-2014 08:45PM

Even the US money is based on trusting in God ...

The Atheists challenged and lost ... on the basis that the placement of the phrase on money didn't constitute a "substantial burden" on them.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/12/atheists-in-god-we-trust_n_3916762.html

Sounds like Atheists should choose real and substantive issues to get 'worked up over'.

J C · 18-03-2014 08:46PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

That doesn't imply that that god is the Christian God!!!

I agree ... but I never said it did.

Delirium · 18-03-2014 08:48PM

J C wrote: »

OK ... so the headstones aren't crosses themselves ... they just have crosses engraved on themselves.

Sounds like a fallacious argument and grasping at pedantic straws ... to me!!!:eek:

Ardmacha was perfectly correct in his core point that religious symbols (including Christian crosses) are allowed on public property in the US.

So ardmacha presents a cemetary in Luxembourg with Christian crosses for headstones. Brian shows that to posted in error, and that the government do no provide Christian crosses as headstones. Thought they will acknowledge the religious affliation of the soldier on the headstone. In addition to that, they also cater many other religious groups (which was another error suggested by the picture ardmacha posted).

Even the US money is based on trusting in God ...

And it's unconstitutional IMHO. It ignores all citizens that aren't theists/deists.

J C · 18-03-2014 09:00PM

SW wrote: »

So ardmacha presents a cemetary in Luxembourg with Christian crosses for headstones. Brian shows that to posted in error, and that the government do no provide Christian crosses as headstones. Thought they will acknowledge the religious affliation of the soldier on the headstone. In addition to that, they also cater many other religious groups (which was another error suggested by the picture ardmacha posted).

The Luxembourg cemetery is a cemetery for US soldiers and it was set up and its maintenance continues to be paid for by the US government ... and then to put the matter beyond all doubt, Arlington in DC also allows religious symbols on headstones.
... and still ye keep on arguing a lost cause ... and no apology to Ardmacha, I note.

SW wrote: »

And it's unconstitutional IMHO. It ignores all citizens that aren't theists/deists.

I never saw an Atheist refuse a twenty dollar note because of it!!!:):eek:

J C · 18-03-2014 09:03PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

Ah, but JC, they're not crosses!!!! They are just pictures of crosses!!!!! ...

And here's an ellipsis or two!!! ... ...

Good point ... I couldn't have said it better myself.;)
The ellipses were the 'icing on the cake'.

J C · 18-03-2014 09:14PM

Gordon wrote: »

I'm surprised that they would allow an atheist monument given the constitution, although, it was preceded (and sits next to) a Christian monument.

Sometimes I just don't get America

I get it ...
Its all about freedom of religion and expression ... rather than suppression of religion ... and irreligion.:)

Delirium · 18-03-2014 09:32PM

J C wrote: »

The Luxembourg cemetery is a cemetery for US soldiers and it was set up and its maintenance continues to be paid for by the US government ... and then to put the matter beyond all doubt, Arlington in DC also allows religious symbols on headstones.
... and still ye keep on arguing a lost cause ... and no apology to Ardmacha, I note.

So you're not disputing that the US military doesn't provide Christian crosses as headstones in graveyards in the US. Yet you expect apologies for something that you don't agree with?

Unless you're standing 2 feet from a headstone, you'd have no idea of the religious affiliation of any soldier. They all look the same rather than highlighting which are Christian by use of Christian crosses as a graveyard marker.

Atheists can be assholes too sometimes

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