Christine Buckley,R.I.P. A great and inspirational woman has died

Femme_Fatale · 12-03-2014 12:30PM

It's still important to mention that some of the abusers were laypeople though. That's just the truth, not whataboutery.

Knight who says Meh · 12-03-2014 02:04PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

It's still important to mention that some of the abusers were laypeople though. That's just the truth, not whataboutery.

Not to go off track here but
I fully accept that lay people commit abuse but lay people are not a collective with a power structure and hierarchy. They are simply individuals.
What i find most vile about Church abuse is the cover up and self preservation from the top and the fact that Church people are meant to be working on behalf of a loving God and hold themselves as guardians of all that is good and moral in irish society. Individuals dont have that.
Again with my ISPCA worker drowning puppies analogy!

Any way sorry for going off track.

Muise... · 12-03-2014 02:11PM

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

Not to go off track here but
I fully accept that lay people commit abuse but lay people are not a collective with a power structure and hierarchy. They are simply individuals.
What i find most vile about Church abuse is the cover up and self preservation from the top and the fact that Church people are meant to be working on behalf of a loving God and hold themselves as guardians of all that is good and moral in irish society. Individuals dont have that.
Again with my ISPCA worker drowning puppies analogy!

Any way sorry for going off track.

Many lay people who were abusers were working within the Church. The term 'lay' indicates a non-ordained but active participant in the Church.

Other lay or non-religious people who were and are abusers have the protection of family and community - which are very much collectives with a power structure and hierarchy.

I don't think it really matters to a child how hypocritical or depraved their abuser seems to the rest of the world.

Knight who says Meh · 12-03-2014 02:23PM

Muise... wrote: »

Many lay people who were abusers were working within the Church. The term 'lay' indicates a non-ordained but active participant in the Church.

Other lay or non-religious people who were and are abusers have the protection of family and community - which are very much collectives with a power structure and hierarchy.

I don't think it really matters to a child how hypocritical or depraved their abuser seems to the rest of the world.

Opps. My bad. I didnt twig to that. Lay people being unordained church workers as opposed to general public. Gotcha.:o

Spring Onion · 13-03-2014 09:00PM

Good program about here just finished on TV3. She was a great lady.
I cant help but think she will be forgotten despite all she has done for Irish people.

JP Liz V1 · 13-03-2014 10:02PM

RIP

cruais · 14-03-2014 12:08AM

Spring Onion wrote: »

Good program about here just finished on TV3. She was a great lady.
I cant help but think she will be forgotten despite all she has done for Irish people.

The Aislinn centre.

This will hopefully keep this marvellous womans spirit alive.

Ann Landers · 16-03-2014 01:20AM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I was only 17 and not particularly religious. In my case, it wasn't a case of "didn't want to believe", it was more "couldn't believe". It was the stuff of reeling.
So, so difficult to get your head around: these people (nuns) whom I'd been led to believe by my lovely, gentle grandmother were instruments of god's love (plenty of whom were of course good people)... how was it actually possible that any of their number could beat, torture, starve, psychologically torment, enslave, and sexually assault children?
It's hard to get your head around anyone doing this, let alone people whom you fully believe are nothing but good.

I dunno, I was 12 in 1996 and it honestly didn't shock me too much. Nuns always gave me the heebies and many I met up that point struck me as not very nice people at all. Many had formidable, sort of had-faced quality to them.

Of course, I never would guessed the extent of the cruelty of which some were capable, just that I never really saw the ones I met as benevolent really.

branie · 06-04-2014 05:51PM

RTE1 is reshowing Dear Daughter tomorrow night

Dyr · 06-04-2014 05:54PM

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Coincidentally, I read this news just after posting my documents to the archbishop of Dublin to officially defect from the RC church (something I meant to do and should've done years ago) so today I do it in her honour. RIP Christine.

Is it still possible to do that?

branie · 06-04-2014 05:59PM

Bambi wrote: »

Is it still possible to do that?

No, the church stopped accepting defections a couple of years ago.

poundapunnet · 06-04-2014 06:14PM

Muise... wrote: »

Many lay people who were abusers were working within the Church. The term 'lay' indicates a non-ordained but active participant in the Church.

Other lay or non-religious people who were and are abusers have the protection of family and community - which are very much collectives with a power structure and hierarchy.

I don't think it really matters to a child how hypocritical or depraved their abuser seems to the rest of the world.

As well as the abuse and the cover-ups, I think it's the continued presumption of moral authority that the Church displays, and their wielding of that authority to influence current matters (especially gay marriage and abortion but also things like the HPV vaccine and the education system in this country) that really rankles.

Families and communities certainly did participate in their own abuses and cover ups, but they are not comparable to the church in terms of actual proper organisational hierarchies, material resources etc. And you don't have, for example, representatives of the community of Dalkey or the family of Murphy speaking out against gay marriage and abortion, saying that it's not compatible with the teachings of the organisation of Dalkey, that it's sinful and immoral and that their opinion is worth listening to because they have followed the teachings of Dalkey. But that DOES happen with the church. It's still the same organisation, with a lot of the same people working there, with the same vast amounts of money, and the same tendency to try and control people's lives-even if their actual ability to do that has waned. As far as most people are concerned a lot of the apologies have been pretty half-hearted, there have not been enough convictions, especially at the higher levels, and the constant whataboutery and reluctance to pay out to victims really does make all their 'live the spiritual life' and 'we're so sorry' crap all the harder to swallow.

In this country anyway the gards certainly have a hell of a lot to answer to as a comparable organisation though.

Legs.Eleven · 06-04-2014 06:24PM

Bambi wrote: »

Is it still possible to do that?

Nope. I sent off my forms and got a letter back there a few weeks ago to tell me they can't as they Canon Law of the Catholic Church has been changed recently on this matter (why?

) but I've been put some register where my de facto defection from the Catholic church has been recorded.

I find this so ridiculously frustrating and unfair that it makes me want to do an angry flash dance all over my sitting room.

I'll try again if/when it is possible. It's an absolute farce that I can't get my name off the records officially.

road_high · 07-04-2014 11:19PM

Watching it now. Brings tears to the eyes again.
Religious orders are/were absolute scum. The sooner they are erased from the country the better as far as i'm
concerned.

Smidge · 07-04-2014 11:25PM

Watching it now myself.
Very, very tough viewing.
Watching this again(watched it the first time it came on years ago)makes the woman even more outstanding in my eyes.

All of those other poor children, un-named and unremembered who suffered at the hands of the "servants of God" shouldn't be forgotten either.

branie · 08-04-2014 12:34AM

It was very disturbing

Femme_Fatale · 08-04-2014 12:37AM

Finished watching it now. Had to pause it numerous times to get my head around it. It was like a horror film in places, no exaggeration.

Smidge · 08-04-2014 12:40AM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Finished watching it now. Had to pause it numerous times to get my head around it. It was like a horror film in places, no exaggeration.

I had to do that myself!
At parts, I thought I just have to switch this off even though I watched it the first time years ago when it first came out. For some reason it just hit me like a brick this time.
I didn't switch it off tbh out of respect for those women who were brave enough to relive that horrendous time of their lives so we could be able to listen to their story.

branie · 08-04-2014 12:41AM

A scene that sticks in my mind is that of the girl who was forced to say the rosary all night when she was standing in place of the statue of Our Lady that she had accidently broken.

Birroc · 08-04-2014 09:25PM

Watched that program last night. Went to bed angry and yet so glad I turned away from that sick/criminal organisation.

Christine Buckley,R.I.P. A great and inspirational woman has died

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