Should Ireland have a better equipped Navy and Air Force?

OS119 wrote: »

i've often seen this being stated, but i'm not convinced its true - what is the basis for this suggestion?

The MPA version of the CASA CN-235 that Ireland uses has a state-of-the-art surface search radar that is mounted underneath the belly of the aircraft. According to the link below, the radar used is a Litton APS 504(V)5 system. It is designed from the ground up for scanning ocean surfaces, and its mounting underneath the fuselage means that it can only scan underneath the aircraft due to movement restrictions for the antenna.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/airtech-cn-235-mpa/

If the aircraft is high enough, it should be possible to use it as an air search radar. The software would have to be modified to interpret the different returns from airborne targets, but that should be easily resolvable by a software update. Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if the computers and information management system ware already set up for this.

As far as the topic itself is concerned, Ireland should definitely have a better equipped naval and air force. Not by much, but it should definitely be better and larger. The CASA CN-235 is a prime example. In my eyes, there should be a fleet of six of these aircraft permanently assigned to the Maritime Patrol role, especially since the RAF phase out their BAe Nimrods. It might also be a good choice to get two of that type especially outfitted as airlifters. The PC-9s can stay, but the Cessnas should be replaced by something more modern.
Considering their present role, I'm quite partial to the Diamond Aircraft DA-42 Twin star in the surveillance version built for the UK. Their fleet should be about the same size. For good measure, you could order 2-4 DA 40 Star for pilots training. If it's good enough for the US Air Force Academy, it should be good enough for Ireland
The helicopter force should be enlarged, more AW-139s being the obvious choice. The biggest thing that is needed is a fast jet capability. Not a large one, especially since Irish Airspace is being covered by the Royal Air Force, but a fleet of 9-12 single seat aircraft, and 3 more double seaters for transition training would still be prudent. As far as the type is concerned, something like the Korean Aerospace T-50 would be the optimum choice. Still, even the Aero L-159 ALCA would provide a massive capability increase to something that would be more suitable for Ireland.

As far as the navy is concerned, a lot more work is needed. the new Beckett class OPVs are a step in the right direction, but there are to few of them. Considering the size of the EEA in the Atlantic, a fleet of about 12 oceangoing vessels seems prudent, especially if you want at least 4 ships on patrol at any given time. Both the Beckett class and its immediate predecessor, whose name escapes me are good ships, and should form the mainstay of any future fleet. A new class of helicopter carrying large patrol vessels, two to three ships strong, should also be introduced. I'm thinking of something along the lines of the Protector Class of the Royal New Zealand Navy. The necessary helicopters should be purchased as well, Agusta Westland A-109 being my favourite due to their commonality with the AW-139. A fleet of 3-6 helicopters should suffice. Unlike the last attempt, these should be operated directly by the navy, though I do admit that an Irish Fleet Air Arm sounds rather grandiose. Ideally, a support vessel in the shape of a fleet oiler should also be purchased, though that is definitely not a necessity.

Something that definitely needs to be addressed is basing. With such an increase in numbers and capabilities, it may not be practicable anymore to concentrate all assets on just one base per service, Baldonnel and Haulbowline. Once again, I'll pick on the Air Corps first. Baldonnel should remain for the fast jets, the PC-9 and air transport assets, as well as remaining the central maintenance depot. The Airfield at Gormanston should be reactivated as the central helicopter base, as well as being the central site for basic flight training, and a base for the DA-42 Twin Stars. The CASA Patrol Aircraft should receive their own base. I'd like to see them get based at the former Galway Airport, but adding a military apron to any of the current civilian Airports may very well be a better choice.
As for the navy, I'd like to see a second base being built at Killibegs, which would become the home port for a flotilla of 6 ships, mostly the smaller patrol vessels. The larger vessels, especially the helicopter capable ships, should remain based at Haulbowline. There, the old dry dock should be reactivated, while the area to the east of the main basin should become a heliport to house the helicopters that operate from the new ships. The former Irish Steel site should be redeveloped with state of the art work and repair shops, as well as the warehouses needed to support the helicopters and the new ships.
The question of course is where do you get the money from, and wether the Irish people and their elected representatives are willing to step up to the plate with regards to providing the Permanent Defence Forces with the infrastructure and tools it needs in my eye.

I'd love to see a shift towards UAV's in the Aircorp and Naval Service. Drone tech has become quite the lucrative industry and is a very viable option for many of the roles undertaken by the forces. This could a cheaper way to expand the capabilities of the Defence forces whilst maintain its current personnel.

thomil wrote: »

The MPA version of the CASA CN-235 that Ireland uses has a state-of-the-art surface search radar that is mounted underneath the belly of the aircraft. According to the link below, the radar used is a Litton APS 504(V)5 system. It is designed from the ground up for scanning ocean surfaces, and its mounting underneath the fuselage means that it can only scan underneath the aircraft due to movement restrictions for the antenna.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/airtech-cn-235-mpa/

If the aircraft is high enough, it should be possible to use it as an air search radar. The software would have to be modified to interpret the different returns from airborne targets, but that should be easily resolvable by a software update. Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if the computers and information management system ware already set up for this.

As far as the topic itself is concerned, Ireland should definitely have a better equipped naval and air force. Not by much, but it should definitely be better and larger. The CASA CN-235 is a prime example. In my eyes, there should be a fleet of six of these aircraft permanently assigned to the Maritime Patrol role, especially since the RAF phase out their BAe Nimrods. It might also be a good choice to get two of that type especially outfitted as airlifters. The PC-9s can stay, but the Cessnas should be replaced by something more modern.
Considering their present role, I'm quite partial to the Diamond Aircraft DA-42 Twin star in the surveillance version built for the UK. Their fleet should be about the same size. For good measure, you could order 2-4 DA 40 Star for pilots training. If it's good enough for the US Air Force Academy, it should be good enough for Ireland
The helicopter force should be enlarged, more AW-139s being the obvious choice. The biggest thing that is needed is a fast jet capability. Not a large one, especially since Irish Airspace is being covered by the Royal Air Force, but a fleet of 9-12 single seat aircraft, and 3 more double seaters for transition training would still be prudent. As far as the type is concerned, something like the Korean Aerospace T-50 would be the optimum choice. Still, even the Aero L-159 ALCA would provide a massive capability increase to something that would be more suitable for Ireland.

As far as the navy is concerned, a lot more work is needed. the new Beckett class OPVs are a step in the right direction, but there are to few of them. Considering the size of the EEA in the Atlantic, a fleet of about 12 oceangoing vessels seems prudent, especially if you want at least 4 ships on patrol at any given time. Both the Beckett class and its immediate predecessor, whose name escapes me are good ships, and should form the mainstay of any future fleet. A new class of helicopter carrying large patrol vessels, two to three ships strong, should also be introduced. I'm thinking of something along the lines of the Protector Class of the Royal New Zealand Navy. The necessary helicopters should be purchased as well, Agusta Westland A-109 being my favourite due to their commonality with the AW-139. A fleet of 3-6 helicopters should suffice. Unlike the last attempt, these should be operated directly by the navy, though I do admit that an Irish Fleet Air Arm sounds rather grandiose. Ideally, a support vessel in the shape of a fleet oiler should also be purchased, though that is definitely not a necessity.

Something that definitely needs to be addressed is basing. With such an increase in numbers and capabilities, it may not be practicable anymore to concentrate all assets on just one base per service, Baldonnel and Haulbowline. Once again, I'll pick on the Air Corps first. Baldonnel should remain for the fast jets, the PC-9 and air transport assets, as well as remaining the central maintenance depot. The Airfield at Gormanston should be reactivated as the central helicopter base, as well as being the central site for basic flight training, and a base for the DA-42 Twin Stars. The CASA Patrol Aircraft should receive their own base. I'd like to see them get based at the former Galway Airport, but adding a military apron to any of the current civilian Airports may very well be a better choice.
As for the navy, I'd like to see a second base being built at Killibegs, which would become the home port for a flotilla of 6 ships, mostly the smaller patrol vessels. The larger vessels, especially the helicopter capable ships, should remain based at Haulbowline. There, the old dry dock should be reactivated, while the area to the east of the main basin should become a heliport to house the helicopters that operate from the new ships. The former Irish Steel site should be redeveloped with state of the art work and repair shops, as well as the warehouses needed to support the helicopters and the new ships.
The question of course is where do you get the money from, and wether the Irish people and their elected representatives are willing to step up to the plate with regards to providing the Permanent Defence Forces with the infrastructure and tools it needs in my eye.

If you have about 20 billion handy we could this, not in our lifetimes:(:(:(

sparky42 wrote: »

They have done some bits, and at least they designed the new ships with some margin for drones, by the sounds of it from listening to one of the engineering team something like a ScanEagle system for future potential use.

That's very interesting, would you mind elaborating on that?

Savage93 wrote: »

If you have about 20 billion handy we could this, not in our lifetimes:(:(:(

It's not just the cost, I don't see why you need to bring the old dock into operation while the Cobh Graving Dock is operational, nor why you should spend the money on setting up other bases, just for the case of setting up bases.

Even if we went to NATO standard 2-3% we still couldn't fund anything like that within a generation.

I'll elaborate for him (being ex PDF), rubbish chest rigs, body armour that's not balanced correctly. Rifles are long due an upgrade, just look at all the comparative work that has been done on the SA80. But to be realistic, and pragmatic in this economic climate why upgrade them when they aren't fired at anything outside of a figure 8 target on the range or a bit of drill!!In trained hands, maintained right they fire just fine though.

Not enough funding/effort put into live fire training is another example, anyone who thinks an annual exercise thrown together is enough clearly doesn't grasp the modern relevance of it.

As for training, fitness standards to get in are not robust enough. Too much time is spent bringing people up to competent standard. Having recruit training and 2-3 star training infantry based makes no sense. As not everyone will assume an ''infantry role'' after training.

I've seen people pulled out of the field for ceremonial duties in barracks and even been on an exercise that was cancelled because they needed bodies for a brigade athletics championship.

As for little intelligence? A good soldier doesn't need to be a rocket scientist he just needs the rare quality of common sense, which isn't that common. Plenty of enlisted have degrees, some are mickey mouse diplomas and certs in anything from event planning to sociology and politics. But some are quite high end like for instance a Cpl who instructed myself from the FAR who was a civil engineer but he was under utilised and clearly unfulfilled in his role. Plenty of qualified/ bright lads in signals, engineers and logistics too. There's no need for recruiting intelligence (qualifications wise) in the PDF as the really high spec technology isn't there. (And know Armoured Vehicle Recognition for the Javelin don't count )

Just to be clear,I don't hold the rank and file of the PDF accountable for this. Its the higher ups, the colonels and such who have long forgotten the fundamentals of soldiering, do not put nearly enough pressure on the government to allow the PDF to deploy on more robust overseas operations (Syria is a step in the right direction though) and have no interest in cultivating a well trained enlisted body of the military.

PLCE all the way ha, better variants have more sturdier shoulder supports and stronger adjustable metal buckles. An extra pouch here or there. Happy days

I will concede the Steyr is fit for it's current purpose. It is superior to the SA80 in several regards, the magazine change for instance is much better and reliable. Cocking handle on left hand side is a lot better for prone position too. But the Steyr doesn't have a rail system the SA80 does.But there is no need for accessories on the Steyr ie light, laser (although they are incorporating the latter these into sights now as a point of aim aid so who knows what the PDF will add)

I'll just clarify this about training, some people on passing out go straight into the coy office, the officer/ncos/privates mess or some other non military specific job. No doubt everyone joining the army, should get a grounding in basic infantry tactics but with resources in the DF always in short supply. Some roles should be civilian only (freeing up trained ranks), with an appropriate confidentiality clause as needed, or specific intakes for lack of a better term ''combat support'' roles like an administrative corps if you will. I'll be a little biased here, infantry should be purely infantry.It shouldn't be viewed as the all inclusive unit who takes anyone and everyone to fill gaps.


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riffmongous wrote: »

Meaning what exactly? That's not a value

That is approximate size of our seas..

That value to the state is endless..

Seas that require an effective & strong navy to patrol and police.

There is always the potential for future national resource finds off the west coast as well other important resources in such as fishing stocks.

Smuggling of narcotics and arms is still a problem.. The country is a run with both as news reports constantly mention.

We have 8 naval vessels currently trying to do all this work covering 132,000km2 with the support of two MARPAT aircraft.

We should continue to improve & enlarge our navy with improved air corps support to complete there mission.

Ireland should spend 1% of GDP on defence every year (210.3 billion USD (2012). Over 10 years we could get a few warships, jets and a few tanks. We would simply be meeting the norms for Europe.