Will you eat meat tomorrow

Knight who says Meh · 10-03-2014 10:03AM

Uriel. wrote: »

My post wasn't daft, but it is quite clear that you have some underlying problems, you're easily disrespected.

You basically named a litany of CC beliefs. And the fact that the CC has these beliefs at all is disrespectful to you? So presumably you don't have priests, nuns or laypeople calling around to you to share these beliefs? So your disrespected from a distance.

Seems you like the idea of being a victim.
I hope they stop kidnapping you Sundays and forcing you to sit through mass.

As a matter of interest when groups advocate lower welfare rates do you also feel disrespected?

How about when some says "x" film is the best film of the year? Do you feel disrespected because you thought "y" was better?

I have no idea where you are going with this:
lets back track and take this step by step.
It was under debate as to whether The RCC considers opposing views with respect.
I stated that as The RCC are on record over hundreds of years and in many formats of considering most opposing views as sinful, evil and worthy of eternal damnation then they can hardly be considered respectful. Even if they secretly thought this they would still not be respectful. As it is they are very very public about this opinion.
The best you could then manage is "Do they come to my house and tell me this?' And have gone on to assert that if not then I am talking bull.

Im sureThe KKK have not personally called on every black person in the world so perhaps black people are simply imaging that The KKK are racist. Thats your logic.
Or
The RCC considers homosexuality as sinful, degenerate and depraved as a matter of record. The fact that they have not personally told every gay person so means that they have no right to feel disrespected. Yes?

Akrasia · 10-03-2014 10:13AM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

How are you being forced by the church to take part in a somber Good Friday?!? Do you mean that the pubs are closed!? But that's state legislation. And the state can change the legislation any time they like. Nothing to do with the Church.

It's everything to do with the church. The catholic members of the Dail would revolt if there were attempts to overturn the law. They would revolt because for some Dail members, they are catholic first, and Irish second.

When Munster and Leinster were playing rugby in Limerick in 2010 the vintners had to go to court to allow the pubs to remain open for the evening. In the end, the courts agreed that economics trumped religion and exempted the city from the law for a few hours. This was the perfect opportunity for the government to repeal the law nationally, but it was not taken.

Akrasia · 10-03-2014 10:24AM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

No. What you seem to be ignoring is the fact that despite the country being up in arms at the moment over this outrage, and rightly so, a good proportion of this lovely country during the 40s and 50s in particular actually agreed with the treatment of orphans and unmarried mothers in particuler.
This is an uncomfortable fact but a fact none the less. Down here in rural Ireland you would still come across shreds of it. Who do you think put the unwed pregnant girls in the laundries in the first place? A nun didn't come down to the house and abduct them you know? Their own parents brought them, and many were told to never darken the door again. The unwed pregnant daughter of a big farm or business was seriously hampering her sisters chances of landing a good match. The bold sister disappeared and she was often reffered to as having died of TB in the UK.
So not laziness but a sort of general badness that permeated the whole society.
Uncomfortable as I already said. But were not very good at facing up to ourselves as we really are, or should I say were.

And the reason behind this Badness???

Yer man on the pulpit every sunday calling people out in public for being shameful and sinners. My wife has an uncle buried in an unmarked grave in liscannor because he died as a newborn before he had a chance to get baptised, and the priest wouldn't let him be buried on consecrated ground.

The traditionals of Ireland, the most hateful traditions of all, were deeply influenced by the hateful teachings of the catholic church.

Ireland was completely insular, insulated from the outside world by state censorship and a school system that was dominated by catholic doctrine. As soon as the Irish people had access to the outside world, within one generation, we became hugely more accepting and open to different lifestyles and freedoms that were considered shameful in the past.

Akrasia · 10-03-2014 10:28AM

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

Look it's obvious I'm not going to agree with you. As a catholic I agree with keeping Good Friday as it is and all the arguing in the world is not going to make me change my mind.

And here, in one short sentence, is the reason why I oppose religious education

Once you are committed to a religious faith, no reason in the world will make you change your mind.

rainbow kirby · 10-03-2014 10:31AM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Why on earth would you presume that because I'm not Irish, I don't live in Ireland?
Are only Irish people allowed to have an opi ion?
Two other catholic bashers on this thread are claiming to be oppressed and downtrodden by the Irish RCC while living abroad, why don't you ask them what their interest is in Good Friday opening hours?

What's wrong with wanting to have your country in the best possible state to come back to at some point in the future?

Akrasia · 10-03-2014 10:38AM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I. Have freely acknowledged several times today that the RCC to their eternal shame ran these institutions. But im stating as fact that they didnt do it without alot of help from the rest of the country.
Your saying that the RCC brainwashed society into adopting the attitude that prevailed.
But how do you explain the shunning and exclusion of unwed mothers in countries and cultures where the Catholic churchs influence would be practically nil, in particular, and to this day, in parts of Africa?

In Muslim countries, people are still stoned to death for breaking rules associated with Islam. Are you trying to say that the stonings have nothing to do with their islamic faith?

When people grow up to be islamic fundamentalists, this is the fault of the religious instruction they received growing up. When people in ireland hold conservtive catholic viewpoints, this is the fault of the conservative catholic upbringing they received. Yet you are trying to put the cart before the horse here.

mrsbyrne · 10-03-2014 11:08AM

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

Your post was daft and i took you to task on it.
The Church considers contraception, abortion, homosexuality, my unbaptised children, co habiting, sex before marriage, drunkenness for example as a sin.
Thats not respectful.
They have books, Sunday meet up, nut job Iona Institute/ Yuff Defense/ Pure at heart and TV slots dedicated to telling me so. I spent from birth to about age 17 being told the same.
Thats not respectful.

This is the Ireland of 2014, where like some characters from a mafia movie, we can all say that if somebody holds a different opinion to me , then i can feel disrespected, and entitled to an apology. or maybe even compensation.
Well, you must be very sensitive sir meh, thats all i can say.

mrsbyrne · 10-03-2014 11:10AM

Akrasia wrote: »

In Muslim countries, people are still stoned to death for breaking rules associated with Islam. Are you trying to say that the stonings have nothing to do with their islamic faith?

When people grow up to be islamic fundamentalists, this is the fault of the religious instruction they received growing up. When people in ireland hold conservtive catholic viewpoints, this is the fault of the conservative catholic upbringing they received. Yet you are trying to put the cart before the horse here.

Your saying that holding a conservative catholic viewpoint is something to be ashamed of. Something that "shouldnt be allowed".
How so?

Akrasia · 10-03-2014 11:16AM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

What part of the Angelus programme is advertising RCC?

Which part of the Muslim call to prayer advertises islam?

Cunny-Funt · 10-03-2014 11:22AM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

This is the Ireland of 2014, where like some characters from a mafia movie, we can all say that if somebody holds a different opinion to me , then i can feel disrespected, and entitled to an apology. or maybe even compensation.
Well, you must be very sensitive sir meh, thats all i can say.

LOL hold on hold on, are you saying those that have a problem with homophobia and the likes are just being sensitive?

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Your saying that holding a conservative catholic viewpoint is something to be ashamed of. Something that "shouldnt be allowed".
How so?

Of course it is, just like being a racist. Its backwards, ignorant and often hateful way of thinking.

Having a family member thats a fundie is a thing of shame and embarrassment. Viewed as old thinking that'll die off with the older generations.

Like the racist auld granny.

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 11:25AM

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

The Church considers contraception, abortion, homosexuality, my unbaptised children, co habiting, sex before marriage, drunkenness for example as a sin.
Thats not respectful.

Considering something as a sin does not mean that respect is not shown to the person doing it.

Though criticised by some, the practice of hate the sin, love the sinner is alive and well.

mrsbyrne · 10-03-2014 11:27AM

Akrasia wrote: »

It's everything to do with the church. The catholic members of the Dail would revolt if there were attempts to overturn the law. They would revolt because for some Dail members, they are catholic first, and Irish second.

When Munster and Leinster were playing rugby in Limerick in 2010 the vintners had to go to court to allow the pubs to remain open for the evening. In the end, the courts agreed that economics trumped religion and exempted the city from the law for a few hours. This was the perfect opportunity for the government to repeal the law nationally, but it was not taken.

Pardon the pun but oh for the love of God.
What do you want RCC to do about the bloody pubs on Good Friday? do you seriously expect them to lobby the Government to change the law because your too lazy to do it and anyway its the only thing you can think of to maintain your "vctim of the church" status.
" look at me everybody my life is hardly worth living because the pubs are closed on Good Friday. Oh the cruelty! oh the inhumanity!!"
You voted for the TDs who you say are too "afraid" of the Church (but you cant explain how they were not too afraid of the church to vote for abortion, can you?"). If you dont like how your TD is performing , vote for another TD! Simples!

Akrasia · 10-03-2014 11:29AM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Your saying that holding a conservative catholic viewpoint is something to be ashamed of. Something that "shouldnt be allowed".
How so?

I am saying that the 'badness' that existed in Ireland (which you admit to) can not be separated from the influence of the church, and as the church influence has reduced, so has this badness.

Some of the conservative catholic beliefs are outdated and I think they are shameful

Should these beliefs be 'not allowed'? Well I'm not proposing we introduce the thought police (Unlike the christian faith which considers certain thoughts to be sins just as heinous as any actions the person may do)

It's a little bit ironic that christians would criticise atheists for disallowing freedom of thought when I remember many nights as an innocent young child kneeling at my bed saying my bedtime prayers apologising to god for all the sinful thoughts I had that day and asking him to not send me to hell if I died that night in my sleep.

mrsbyrne · 10-03-2014 11:29AM

Cunny-Funt wrote: »

LOL hold on hold on, are you saying those that have a problem with homophobia and the likes are just being sensitive?

Of course it is, just like being a racist. Its backwards, ignorant and often hateful way of thinking.

Having a family member thats a fundie is a thing of shame and embarrassment. Viewed as old thinking that'll die off with the older generations.

Like the racist auld granny.

Of course cunny funt. Anybody who doesnt agree with you is backwards ignorant and hateful. I bet your a riot at parties.

P_1 · 10-03-2014 11:35AM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Why on earth would you presume that because I'm not Irish, I don't live in Ireland?
Are only Irish people allowed to have an opi ion?
Two other catholic bashers on this thread are claiming to be oppressed and downtrodden by the Irish RCC while living abroad, why don't you ask them what their interest is in Good Friday opening hours?

Fair enough, perhaps an ill thought out comment. However for the umpteenth time, nobody is bashing the catholic church or its followers. All they're saying is essentially 'you do your own thing, leave us to do ours'

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 11:37AM

P_1 wrote: »

Fair enough, perhaps an ill thought out comment. However for the umpteenth time, nobody is bashing the catholic church or its followers. All they're saying is essentially 'you do your own thing, leave us to do ours'

I think most people can agree with that. Trouble is, the RCC gets blamed for government policy and laws of the land which are in the gift of the government (and ultimately the people).

Akrasia · 10-03-2014 11:37AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Considering something as a sin does not mean that respect is not shown to the person doing it.

Though criticised by some, the practice of hate the sin, love the sinner is alive and well.

Pf course it does. I think we need to look up what the word respect means

Respect is a positive feeling of esteem towards someone. How can you believe that a homosexual is sinful and going to hell and still hold him/her in esteem?

Some people talk out of both sides of their mouth when they are trying to argue in support of a bigoted view that they are obliged by their faith to hold, while also not wishing to inflict hurt on individuals

Its an internal struggle. Their faith tells them that they have to oppose gay marriage, but they are still part of a more liberal society and genuinely do not harbour any ill feelings towards individual gay people. They are able to denounce homosexuality and cause real harm to individuals, while still pretending that they are respecting these individuals.

It's like a racist saying 'I have the utmost respect for black people, but I don't think black people should be allowed to marry white people because it harms the integrity of the white race'

Dyr · 10-03-2014 11:38AM

lets be honest here, most dublin/urban TDs dont worry to much about the creeping jesus vote. it's the arse end of nowhere country constituencies who are the last stronghold of popery in politics.

Knight who says Meh · 10-03-2014 11:40AM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

This is the Ireland of 2014, where like some characters from a mafia movie, we can all say that if somebody holds a different opinion to me , then i can feel disrespected, and entitled to an apology. or maybe even compensation.
Well, you must be very sensitive sir meh, thats all i can say.

If someone considers me evil and worthy of damnation for my views how much respect am I getting again?
BTW perhaps you are thinking of The Iona Institute when you refer to compensation and apologies. They're catholic.
Laundry survivors and abused kids are the only group who ever sought compo from The RCC. They refuse to pay up.

Knight who says Meh · 10-03-2014 11:41AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Considering something as a sin does not mean that respect is not shown to the person doing it.

Though criticised by some, the practice of hate the sin, love the sinner is alive and well.

We are talking about respect for views not the individual holding them.

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 11:41AM

Bambi wrote: »

lets be honest here, most dublin/urban TDs dont worry to much about the creeping jesus vote. it's the arse end of nowhere country constituencies who are the last stronghold of popery in politics.

So those who line up to hate Peter Matthews (Dublin South) and Lucinda Creighton (Dublin South-East) should accept that they hold firmly held beliefs and are not simply bowing to pressure from the RCC or its adherents.

I agree Bambi.

Osgoodisgood · 10-03-2014 11:42AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Considering something as a sin does not mean that respect is not shown to the person doing it.

Though criticised by some, the practice of hate the sin, love the sinner is alive and well.

I'm sure Savita Halappanavar's family will be comforted by that thought.

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 11:42AM

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

We are talking about respect for views not the individual holding them.

It was said a number of times on here that "respect for views" is not necessary (can't respect racism, etc), just respect for people who happen to hold those views.

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 11:43AM

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

I'm sure Savita Halappanavar's family will be comforted by that thought.

Not a clue how/why the memory of a deceased person needs to be dragged into this debate.

Cunny-Funt · 10-03-2014 11:44AM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Of course cunny funt. Anybody who doesnt agree with you is backwards ignorant and hateful. I bet your a riot at parties.

lol no just people who hold backwards opinions.

And tbh I think I'd do a lot better in the auld parties than yourself, opinions like "gays are going to burn in hell" and the likes tend not to go down well in most group gatherings.

Your ability to argue is weak and you seem to lack any clear understanding of why the catholic church, religious views in the government and so forth are detrimental to human progress.

You don't seem to be able to fathom the actual points being made here and why things that seem so trivial to you (drinking on good friday etc) are used as examples as to why there is still a problem

Any attempts to debate are pointless, just as pointless as talking to someone who believes the flying spaghetti monster is real, due to it being forced down their throats from childhood. The sheer ridiculousness of beliefs and danger of living by them without them standing up to critical thinking is lost on you because no matter how much scientific evidence, rational thinking, human logic is thrown at you, you were told from childhood that the world is flat and anyone who thinks otherwise is evil.

Here is an example of a decent debate with prominent people with your style of thinking (in case you think its one sided. )

Maybe you'll learn something from it (where the non-religious are coming from) but probably not. You might still enjoy it though either way:

Is the Catholic Chruch a force for good

P_1 · 10-03-2014 11:45AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I think most people can agree with that. Trouble is, the RCC gets blamed for government policy and laws of the land which are in the gift of the government (and ultimately the people).

True, to be honest I'd blame social conditioning over the years and ultimately the British and Irish states since the 19th century rather then the RCC. Essentially it was the former's inaction that led to the latter achieving such a dominant position in Irish society.

However because of that social conditioning it can be quite a daunting task to remove the last vestiges of this dominant position from Irish society. Yes a lot has improved over the years, contraception is now legal, religious/moral censorship is gone, people are no longer trapped in unhappy and sometimes violent marriages and so on. Removing the RCC from influence in education or establishing more non religious schools is IMO the final piece of the puzzle to fixing the mistakes of the 19th century.

papu · 10-03-2014 11:49AM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Your saying that holding a conservative catholic viewpoint is something to be ashamed of. Something that "shouldnt be allowed".
How so?

It promotes inequality , homophobia , suppresses free thinking and forces people to be born into sin.

Dyr · 10-03-2014 11:50AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So those who line up to hate Peter Matthews (Dublin South) and Lucinda Creighton (Dublin South-East) should accept that they hold firmly held beliefs and are not simply bowing to pressure from the RCC or its adherents.

I agree Bambi.

oh they hold firm holy joe beliefs alright. But lucindas a dyed in the wool blue shirt from mayo so no suprises in her case

Be interesting to see how they got on come the next election

Osgoodisgood · 10-03-2014 11:54AM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Not a clue how/why the memory of a deceased person needs to be dragged into this debate.

This thread has been discussing influence and respect. I'm quite sure you know why Savita Halappanavar is relevant here. It is utterly inappropriate that a church has ANY influence in healthcare (and education for that matter) and the sight of the hand waving from the ever shrinking herd of apologists has been disgusting and thoroughly disrespectful.

I Heart Internet · 10-03-2014 11:55AM

Bambi wrote: »

oh they hold firm holy joe beliefs alright. But lucindas a dyed in the wool blue shirt from mayo so no suprises in her case

Be interesting to see how they got on come the next election

It will be interesting alright.

I wonder will they do as well as that leading light of reason and enlightenment Senator Ivana Bacik, who's failed numerous times to be elected to the Dail in Dublin. Her views meant that she couldn't even be elected in the last election, when all you had to be was "not fianna fail" to be elected.

Will you eat meat tomorrow

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