Will you eat meat tomorrow

J_E · 09-03-2014 03:33PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

We have a secular state. The same rules apply to everyone, regardless of religion. Religious people and organisations are civil society actors, no more than that.

We still have while to go before we shed our past image of being a religious state, though. The church still has a pervasive influence in certain aspects of our society.

catallus wrote: »

It is a sad state of affairs when godless fiends can openly demand that any country should be secular.

Nice. Speaks volumes about how you conduct yourself.

I Heart Internet · 09-03-2014 03:34PM

Cydoniac wrote: »

The same people who keep telling others to go to the Government regarding religious issues are the ones who stamp their feet in such an aggressive manner when their traditions are threatened.

Welcome to civil society Cydoniac. People are perfectly entitled to "stamp their feet" on matters that interest them. Just as airline workers are perfectly entitled to stamp their feet and strike over issues that interest them.

You seem to want a free pass on certain issues - that no one should have the right to argue a different position than you.

J_E · 09-03-2014 03:36PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Welcome to civil society Cydoniac. People are perfectly entitled to "stamp their feet" on matters that interest them. Just as airline workers are perfectly entitled to stamp their feet and strike over issues that interest them.

You seem to want a free pass on certain issues - that no one should have the right to argue a different position than you.

I don't want a free pass - I want the majority's view to be heard and respected. The majority of Ireland are not religious or do not use their religion as a stick to poke at the law with their own personal values. Unfortunately some voices are louder than others.

I Heart Internet · 09-03-2014 03:36PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

And its just a coincidence that the RCC would campaign against these and threaten not to give Catholic politicians communion for voting for them? These laws are based on Catholic teachings and the RCC will be against the laws changing claiming to represent 90% of the population. Letting the RCC take care of the schools worked brilliantly didnt it, they dont care about the children, they just want more Catholics.

Again, no clue how civil society functions and supports a vibrant democracy.

I Heart Internet · 09-03-2014 03:37PM

catallus wrote: »

It is a sad state of affairs when godless fiends can openly demand that any country should be secular.

Trollololololololo

catallus · 09-03-2014 03:38PM

Cydoniac wrote: »

I don't want a free pass - I want the majority's view to be heard and respected. The majority of Ireland are not religious or do not use their religion as a stick to poke at the law with their own personal values. Unfortunately some voices are louder than others.

What values should they use so? Or are you saying that there should be no moral value?

I Heart Internet · 09-03-2014 03:38PM

Cydoniac wrote: »

We still have while to go before we shed our past image of being a religious state, though. The church still has a pervasive influence in certain aspects of our society.

I've highlighted the operative phrase in your comment.

An image of being a "religious state" in the past does not mean we are not a secular state.

Ace2007 · 09-03-2014 03:38PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

And its just a coincidence that the RCC would campaign against these and threaten not to give Catholic politicians communion for voting for them? These laws are based on Catholic teachings and the RCC will be against the laws changing claiming to represent 90% of the population. Letting the RCC take care of the schools worked brilliantly didnt it, they dont care about the children, they just want more Catholics.

I love the way you change what I say no one let the RCC take care of he schools they were the ones who set then up while the government did nothing

Just look nowadays how many schools are there that are not or never have been a religios school?

So can the RCC not give their opinion on issues is that what your saying? Who can give an opinion on issues? Just so I know

I Heart Internet · 09-03-2014 03:41PM

Cydoniac wrote: »

I don't want a free pass - I want the majority's view to be heard and respected. The majority of Ireland are not religious or do not use their religion as a stick to poke at the law with their own personal values. Unfortunately some voices are louder than others.

This is a very vague comment. Even if we accept the statement that "the majority of Ireland are not religious" (which clearly isn't true) - how is it that they are not being "heard and respected"? The ballot box is open to all.

shruikan2553 · 09-03-2014 03:50PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Again, no clue how civil society functions and supports a vibrant democracy.

You seem to be under the impression that the RCC has no influence. Threatening to deny Catholics communion based on how they vote in leading the country is ok to you? The Catholic politicians should vote based on what another state says?

Divorce, abortion, homosexuality, contraception all things that the RCC are against and all things the Irish government were slow to allow.

Ace2007 wrote: »

I love the way you change what I say no one let the RCC take care of he schools they were the ones who set then up while the government did nothing

Just look nowadays how many schools are there that are not or never have been a religios school?

So can the RCC not give their opinion on issues is that what your saying? Who can give an opinion on issues? Just so I know

Yes they set up the schools, they also told children they needed to do what they say or face eternal suffering, beat them, raped them. The church used its position to commit terrible crimes so I wouldnt use the schools as an example of how great they were.

They can give there opinion but if they want the state to make laws based on this opinion they should be able to back it up.

09-03-2014 03:58PM

Cydoniac wrote: »

The majority of Ireland are not religious

I would say you are well off the mark with that statement.

Ace2007 · 09-03-2014 03:58PM

I think others are failing to realise that the government can change laws it they want to

NOTHING IS STOPPING THEM

All tour bashing of the church does not change this fact

I Heart Internet · 09-03-2014 03:59PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

You seem to be under the impression that the RCC has no influence.

They are very influential. Within civil society. Just as ICTU, IBEC and the IFA are (for example). A vibrant civil society is essential for a vibrant democracy.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Threatening to deny Catholics communion based on how they vote in leading the country is ok to you? The Catholic politicians should vote based on what another state says?

It's entirely reasonable that a church would outline the consequences of a church-member's actions to them. They are saying to church-members (TD's and non-TD's alike) - if you support abortion, you are commiting a grave sin and seperating yourself from communioin by your actions. This is entirely legal and appropriate. Church-members are entirely free to listen or not, heed or not (and they did).

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Divorce, abortion, homosexuality, contraception all things that the RCC are against and all things the Irish government were slow to allow.

What's your point? If the majority of the people in the country are "for" something it will follow that it will be made legal. Same-sex marriage is a great example, loads of people are for it and pretty soon (in my opinion) it will be legal. Whereas most people are against any notion of abortion on demand, so that has no likelihood of becoming law. The RCC's view of these things are immaterial.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

They can give there opinion but if they want the state to make laws based on this opinion they should be able to back it up.

Nonsense. Anyone or any organisation can hold pretty much whatever opinion they want and push for any laws they want. That's the essence of a vibrant civil society. I can set up a campaign to move the Dail to Mars if I want.......no one has to listen to me, but I can do it if I want.

J_E · 09-03-2014 04:15PM

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

I would say you are well off the mark with that statement.

I would say not. You are the one who claimed there is no exact figure than pulled a ridiculous 80% out of an uncited census. Ireland is mostly Catholic when it suits, not as a lifestyle.

Ace2007 wrote: »

I think others are failing to realise that the government can change laws it they want to

NOTHING IS STOPPING THEM

All tour bashing of the church does not change this fact

Bit of a 'Come at me bro' attitude... also a completely moot argument

papu · 09-03-2014 04:19PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

I think others are failing to realise that the government can change laws it they want to

NOTHING IS STOPPING THEM

All tour bashing of the church does not change this fact

Even I wouldn't go so far as to call all the RCC supporters , die-hards , try-hards and floppyhats nothing.

09-03-2014 04:23PM

The census figure is a lot closer to the actual number than the horribly skewed perception that after hours gives. There is a much much higher proportion of atheists posting here than you have per head of population in this country. Yet I firmly believe a lot of the anti-catholic brigade use the proportion of people agreeing with them here to judge society at large.

I Heart Internet · 09-03-2014 04:24PM

Cydoniac wrote: »

I would say not. You are the one who claimed there is no exact figure than pulled a ridiculous 80% out of an uncited census. Ireland is mostly Catholic when it suits, not as a lifestyle.

If you can make the bold claim that "the majority of Ireland are not religious" and not back it up then anyone is entitled to say to you:

84.2% 84.2% 84.2% 84.2%

The census may not be a cast-iron representation of fact, but it's a lot better than a throw-away, unverified comment that "the majority of Ireland are not religious." A lot, lot better.

Ace2007 · 09-03-2014 04:32PM

papu wrote: »

Even I wouldn't go so far as to call all the RCC supporters , die-hards , try-hards and floppyhats nothing.

Dunno why you quoted me regarding this.

Anyway you guys can argue all day and night if change is wanted government can implement laws nothing is stopping them.

I'll leave you guys now

efb · 09-03-2014 04:40PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I'm afraid your living in a country which enjoys free speech.
The RCC like any other organisation is allowed to take a position and comment on any subject of national interest, whether you like it or not.
I don't know why your feeling bullied, dehumanised etc. Homosexuality was decriminalised along time ago, you know. Your not in any danger from the RCC. Your not being criticised or told what to do or where to go. I having heard any lecturing on gay rights from the RCC. Where did you hear it?
Stop playing the victim. If you don't like somebody else's opinion just get over it.
I'm fat. Fat people are tutted st and discussed and told what a burden we are on the health system etc on a daily basis.
Ithe same with smokers. On and on and on it goes.
Just get on with your life and enjoy the life you have. The RCC don't think gay people should be allowed to marry. Big deal.

Free speech is not allowed in thus country! Blasphemy laws?,???

You get to decide whether I'm playing the victim or not! RCC seems to liks that one too.

Smoking causes cancer, obesity has health problems. Being gay isn't the same. Not practicing safe sex is something I hold in little regard, but I always play safe..

I got over it! It took a while, from the constant berating of my sexuality to ditch the cancer in my life that is the RCC!!!

But bishops should stick their croziers out of other people's business And concentrating on fixing all the abuse they covered up

I Heart Internet · 09-03-2014 04:43PM

efb wrote: »

Free speech is not allowed in thus country! Blasphemy laws?,???

What things are you prevented from saying? How are you being held back by this?

efb · 09-03-2014 04:45PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

What things are you prevented from saying? How are you being held back by this?

She advised there was free speech in this country, I showed by citing blasphemy laws- there isn't

I Heart Internet · 09-03-2014 04:48PM

efb wrote: »

She advised there was free speech in this country, I showed by citing blasphemy laws- there isn't

Yeah, I get that. I was just asking what things you are prevented from saying and how it's affected your life?

Tasden · 09-03-2014 04:54PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yeah, I get that. I was just asking what things you are prevented from saying and how it's affected your life?

It doesn't have to affect a poster personally for them to acknowledge that it exists. I mean I know that I'm not free to murder a person because of the laws that are in place, the fact it doesn't affect my life on a personal level doesn't negate the existence of the laws.

rainbow kirby · 09-03-2014 04:56PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

What things are you prevented from saying? How are you being held back by this?

Well calling a homophobe a homophobe clearly seems to cause issues.

Jamsiek · 09-03-2014 04:57PM

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

Im doing grand TBH. Do you really need religion to stop you being immoral?

Exactly, people should not need a book to tell them how to be a good person.

papu · 09-03-2014 04:58PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yeah, I get that. I was just asking what things you are prevented from saying and how it's affected your life?

It prevents people from going onto the street , expressing freedom of speech against something they believe is wrong and damaging to humanity and could technically be fined or arrested by blasphemy laws

Where as others can go onto the streets and use the same freedom of speech to bathe an unwilling public in a pro-religious , anti equality or anti-choice speech which is perfectly legally.

I Heart Internet · 09-03-2014 04:58PM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Well calling a homophobe a homophobe clearly seems to cause issues.

That has nothing to do with blasphemy.

I Heart Internet · 09-03-2014 04:59PM

Tasden wrote: »

It doesn't have to affect a poster personally for them to acknowledge that it exists.

Absolutely agree.

But what kind of things are we (all of us) prevented from saying due to the blasphemy law?

efb · 09-03-2014 05:00PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yeah, I get that. I was just asking what things you are prevented from saying and how it's affected your life?

Who said I couldn't say what I wanted???

shruikan2553 · 09-03-2014 05:01PM

I Heart Internet wrote: »

They are very influential. Within civil society. Just as ICTU, IBEC and the IFA are (for example). A vibrant civil society is essential for a vibrant democracy.

It's entirely reasonable that a church would outline the consequences of a church-member's actions to them. They are saying to church-members (TD's and non-TD's alike) - if you support abortion, you are commiting a grave sin and seperating yourself from communioin by your actions. This is entirely legal and appropriate. Church-members are entirely free to listen or not, heed or not (and they did).

What's your point? If the majority of the people in the country are "for" something it will follow that it will be made legal. Same-sex marriage is a great example, loads of people are for it and pretty soon (in my opinion) it will be legal. Whereas most people are against any notion of abortion on demand, so that has no likelihood of becoming law. The RCC's view of these things are immaterial.

So you are happy with the rights homosexuals have in Uganda. Uganda also happens to have Christians as the majority and guess whos the biggest group? The RCC. As long as the majority are for it it must be ok.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Nonsense. Anyone or any organisation can hold pretty much whatever opinion they want and push for any laws they want. That's the essence of a vibrant civil society. I can set up a campaign to move the Dail to Mars if I want.......no one has to listen to me, but I can do it if I want.

They can hold an opinion but if they want a law that will negatively affect a group of people based of their belief system to be enforced on everyone, including people not part of their group they will need something to back it up, especially if what the law is about has no affect on the people who want the law.

For example, I dont like chinos. I could find lots of people who dont. Why would we campaign against these when we could just not wear them?

I Heart Internet wrote: »

If you can make the bold claim that "the majority of Ireland are not religious" and not back it up then anyone is entitled to say to you:

The census may not be a cast-iron representation of fact, but it's a lot better than a throw-away, unverified comment that "the majority of Ireland are not religious." A lot, lot better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland
53% of people answer no to "Does religion occupy an important place in your life?"
Other interesting stats in there too.

Will you eat meat tomorrow

Comments