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The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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Comments

  • #3872
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    bumper234 wrote: »
    But if someone finds something in an archaeological dig and says it's 3 million years old yo7 would be the first to say no it's only 10,000 years old.
    It could potentially be either.
    ... and an intelligent design assessment won't settle the age one way or the other ... it can only determine if it was intelligently created/designed or not.


  • #3873
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    An artefact is evidence if a designer...I am talking about a deity here, are you?
    ... all we can scientifically determine (statistically speaking) is whether it was intelligently designed or not ... the identity of the actual 'designer' cannot be determined.

    Scientifically speaking, in the case of life, it could be advanced 'Aliens' ... or God(s) ... or some other source of intelligence that we are not aware of.


  • #3874
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    ... all we can scientifically determine (statistically speaking) is whether it was intelligently designed or not ... the identity of the actual 'designer' cannot be determined.

    Let me get this line straight.
    Do you believe in intelligent design on earth ,by god or similar deity, or do you believe in evolution of species ?


  • #3875
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    Let me get this line straight.
    Do you believe in intelligent design on earth ,by god or similar deity, or do you believe in evolution of species ?
    This isn't a matter of belief ... its objectively observable that life is intelligently designed ... who the 'designer(s)' was/were is anybody's guess.

    It's also objectively observable that population phenotypes and genotypes change with time and under environmental, artificial and sexual selection ... using pre-existing genetic information.
    ... but mutation (which is supposed to provide the 'variety' for 'selection') is observed to be invariably destructive of genetic information ... and therefore doesn't provide a plausible mechanism to provide the 'upwards' development of genetic information necessary to transition from unicellular life to higher plants and animals, for example.


  • #3876
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    This isn't a matter of belief ... its objectively observable that life is intelligently designed ... who the 'designer(s)' was/were is anybody's guess.

    It's also objectively observable that population phenotypes and genotypes change with time and under environmental, artificial and sexual selection ... using pre-existing genetic information.
    ... but mutation (which is supposed to provide the 'variety' for 'selection') is observed to be invariably destructive of genetic information ... and therefore doesn't provide a plausible mechanism to provide the 'upwards' development of genetic information necessary to transition from unicellular life to higher plants and animals, for example.


    So you believe what? You seem to be asserting design and evolution.


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  • #3877
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    So you believe what? You seem to be asserting design and evolution.
    ... yes, both ... Intelligent Design of the original genetic information ... and its selection via environmental, artificial and/or sexual selection since then.


  • #3878
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    ... yes, both ... Intelligent Design of the original genetic information ... and its selection via environmental, artificial and/or sexual selection since then.

    Knew we would get there in the end


  • #3879
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    J C wrote: »
    All belief systems have their own starting points and paradigms ...
    ... and all forms of Cosmology (including the Big Bang and the Big Whisper Hypotheses) necessarily have starting conditions where present physics (and physical measurements) were suspended. Just how long and how radically they were suspended is open to debate and speculation.

    Intelligence and information ... and intelligent design aren't governed by physical laws either ... yet they objectively exist ... but are rejected in relation to life systems by people who want to justify their faith position that there is no God ... (or if there is one He has had no input into the origins of life).

    There is an element of the 'kettle calling the pot black' about this statement ... I find that everybody will try to justify/support their belief systems using whatever evidence they can find ... and this isn't unique to Bible Believing Christians ... Atheists are just as likely to engage in it.
    ... and BTW, I'm not criticising anybody for doing so ... that is how all Humans behave ... and you 'pays your money and takes your choice'!!!!:)

    JC, You are like an amazing bare knuckle boxer, knocked down so many times but you struggle to your feet and say 'That didn't hurt'. Then you swing a few more meaningless punches. At this stage you seem to be a little punch drunk. But your fabulous mind keeps trying to justify the unjustifiable. The whole audience knows that you should be down and out but maybe they underestimate you. A master of deflection, it will take a lot more than mere physical evidence and scientific proof to knock you off your feet. Never give up JC, you are a true champion of your cause.


  • #3880
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    J C wrote: »
    So you're not denying that intelligent design exists ... just the fact that God used it to design life?

    Well yeah. Design implys an end purpose and I don't think God has/had an end purpose in mind. Other than let life happen, He didn't need a purpose for life.
    I mean what would God lack that our life could add to His existence?


  • #3881
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    J C wrote: »
    ... yes, both ... Intelligent Design of the original genetic information ... and its selection via environmental, artificial and/or sexual selection since then.

    But the design isn't necessary. If the potential is their in the genetic material and environment then it's already capable of evolving.
    BTW, you do know that you have already denied that this potential is their several times. Now you claim that God directed an already existing potential.
    Maybe He did but it seems to me that it's a sloppy way to achieve an end result. Assuming an end result is the point of it.


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  • #3882
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    But the design isn't necessary. If the potential is their in the genetic material and environment then it's already capable of evolving.
    BTW, you do know that you have already denied that this potential is their several times. Now you claim that God directed an already existing potential.
    Maybe He did but it seems to me that it's a sloppy way to achieve an end result. Assuming an end result is the point of it.

    That is a good point actually, why bother design something to evolve ,if you are an almighty deity then you would design perfection, not only in the entity itself but also in its surroundings, so evolution is not required or necessary.


  • #3883
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Safehands wrote: »
    JC, You are like an amazing bare knuckle boxer, knocked down so many times but you struggle to your feet and say 'That didn't hurt'. Then you swing a few more meaningless punches. At this stage you seem to be a little punch drunk. But your fabulous mind keeps trying to justify the unjustifiable. The whole audience knows that you should be down and out but maybe they underestimate you. A master of deflection, it will take a lot more than mere physical evidence and scientific proof to knock you off your feet. Never give up JC, you are a true champion of your cause.
    I am not fighting with anybody ... I am merely proclaiming the truth with logic and love.:)


  • #3884
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    Well yeah. Design implys an end purpose and I don't think God has/had an end purpose in mind. Other than let life happen, He didn't need a purpose for life.
    I mean what would God lack that our life could add to His existence?
    Christians are not nihilists.
    As Christians we believe that God has many purposes for all people ... and we all have an eternal destiny to share Heaven with God ... if we freely decide to accept it.


  • #3885
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    But the design isn't necessary. If the potential is their in the genetic material and environment then it's already capable of evolving.
    BTW, you do know that you have already denied that this potential is their several times. Now you claim that God directed an already existing potential.
    Maybe He did but it seems to me that it's a sloppy way to achieve an end result. Assuming an end result is the point of it.
    Life is something like a very very sophisticated intelligently designed self-perpetuating machine ... and thus it required Intelligent Design for it to arise in the first place. Once it has been Created, it was then endowed with the abilities to adapt to its local environment ... which became a necessity after the Fall.


  • #3886
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    That is a good point actually, why bother design something to evolve ,if you are an almighty deity then you would design perfection, not only in the entity itself but also in its surroundings, so evolution is not required or necessary.
    Evolution is not capable of producing any genetic information ... it can select from already-created genetic diversity to allow populations adapt to changes in their environment, within the constraints of the pre-existing genetic information.

    God created everything perfectly ... but this perfection was marred at the Fall ... and thus death and competition (AKA Evolution) entered the Universe at the Fall.:)


  • #3887
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    J C wrote: »
    Life is something like a very very sophisticated intelligently designed self-perpetuating machine ... and thus requires Intelligent Design for it to arise in the first place. Once it has been Created, it is then endowed with the abilities to adapt to its local environment.

    A somewhat deist position, J.C.:eek:
    No theist would disagree but I doubt that proponents of ID would agree.


  • #3888
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »

    God created everything perfectly ... but this perfection was marred at the Fall ... and thus death and competition (AKA Evolution) entered the Universe at the Fall.:)

    And would you care to provide us with your proof of this conclusion ?


  • #3889
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    A somewhat deist position, J.C.:eek:
    No theist would disagree but I doubt that proponents of ID would agree.
    There is considerable autonomy granted by its Creator to life ... but God has a deep personal interest in every person ... whether this interest is reciprocated depends on each of us exercising our free-will to love Him ... or not.


  • #3890
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    And would you care to provide us with your proof of this conclusion ?
    It's a hypothesis that fits what we observe ... almost perfect living processes ... with death, disease and competition providing the adaptation mechanism to changing environments for populations.


  • #3891
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    It's a hypothesis that fits what we observe ... almost perfect living processes ... with death, disease and competition providing the adaptation mechanism to changing environments for populations.


    ...but with no proof....


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  • #3892
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    ... but God has a deep personal interest in every person ... .


    Which God are you referring to ?


  • #3893
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    Which God are you referring to ?
    Jesus Christ


  • #3894
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    Jesus Christ


    Jesus Christ,?
    What about all the other ones...do you discount them?...surely you are not so narrow minded as to omit them from your theory?


  • #3895
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    Jesus Christ,?
    What about all the other ones...do you discount them?...surely you are not so narrow minded as to omit them from your theory?
    As a Christian, I don't believe they exist.
    As a scientist, the Creator(s) of life remain person(s) unknown.:)


  • #3896
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    ...but with no proof....
    ... other than what we observe.


  • #3897
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    As a Christian, I don't believe they exist.
    As a scientist, the Creator(s) of life remain person(s) unknown.:)


    As a scientist then you are incredibly closed minded.....how can a proper judgement be made based solely on the geography of you birth pertaing to the type of religion you follow?
    Who are you to say that Christianity is the right religion to follow?
    Surely your cognitive dissonance is not that programmed?


  • #3898
    Mister Trebus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Mister Trebus


    J C wrote: »
    ... only what we observe.


    Observation can be marred and preconceived by your own conditioning you know?


  • #3899
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    As a scientist then you are incredibly closed minded.....how can a proper judgement be made based solely on the geography of you birth pertaing to the type of religion you follow?
    As a scientist, the Creator(s) of life remain person(s) unknown ... and you cannot get any more open-minded than that.
    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    Who are you to say that Christianity is the right religion to follow?
    I'm not telling you or anybody else which religion is the right religion to follow ... and I respect your right to follow any religion or none.

    ... now, please grant me the same right and respect.

    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    Surely your cognitive dissonance is not that programmed?
    I have found that no group has a monopoly on cognitive dissonance!!!:)


  • #3900
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Mister Trebus wrote: »
    Observation can be marred and preconceived by your own conditioning you know?
    ... and that applies to all people ... so what is your point?


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  • #3901
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,066 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    As a scientist, the Creator(s) of life remain person(s) unknown ... and you cannot get any more open-minded than that.
    Actually yes you can just by being open to the idea there may or may not be a creator.

    You have decided on one idea being right without any evidence to support that choice.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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