Will you eat meat tomorrow

Jamsiek · 08-03-2014 06:20PM

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

Well I'd rather be getting the day off and going for a round of golf and spend the rest of the weekend on the beer than be able to go for a drink after work Good Friday and if Good Friday handy religious significance it would be just a normal work day.

It's catholic bashing, plain and simple.

But I'm not a catholic basher, I just treat Good Friday like any other Friday especially on a long weekend.
Luckily I don't live in a country that stops me from doing it.

My point is that I don't think of the church when I have a drink, it doesn't matter to me.

P_1 · 08-03-2014 06:22PM

Jamsiek wrote: »

But I'm not a catholic basher, I just treat Good Friday like any other Friday especially on a long weekend.
Luckily I don't live in a country that stops me from doing it.

My point is that I don't think of the church when I have a drink, it doesn't matter to me.

Exactly, simply wishing for catholics to follow their beliefs and asking for them not to impose them on you is not catholic bashing.

Femme_Fatale · 08-03-2014 06:22PM

Yeh calling people catholic bashers when there is no cause, is getting old. You can't be tarring all with the "smug atheist" brush. Isn't that the same thing as tarring all catholics with the bigot brush?

Jamsiek · 08-03-2014 06:32PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

You should lobby your TD for a change in the law then if you feel that strongly. There's no good going on about the RCC . Its got nothing to do with them.
People working in pubs and hotel bars etc. get to have a day off for themselves and they probably look forward to it too. But Jamsiek wants what he wants when he/she wants it so its just tough. Can't organise a good nights drinking in his home or some pals. No, its the pub or nothing.
Definitely get up a petition and lobby your TD.

Luckily I don't live in Ireland so no need for a TD.
Im just voicing my opinion.

mrsbyrne · 08-03-2014 06:39PM

P_1 wrote: »

If I wish to go for a pint on the day I cannot. If I wish to use public transport on the day they operate a Sunday service on the day. Most attractions are closed on the day. How is that not enforcing one to take part in a somber day like it or not?

Tell that to parents trying to get their children places in schools in highly populated areas.

Yes they are free to take a position, they are not free to unduly influence decisions based on that position though.

Google Michael Woods TD and the 'deal' he cut with the RCC in relation to compensation for victims of clerical sexual abuse.

But it is the government that set. employment laws , not the RCC. Why is that so difficult to absorb? The RCC do not tell pubs to close. They do not tell Dublin Bus to run a Sunday service, or Irish Rail. That is between the semi state bodies and the Unions. I'm absolutely staggered that you seem to think it has anything to do with RCC.
Why do you think they unduly influenced the desicion to change the abortion law? They expressed their position. The law got changed anyway. The fact that apparently no psychiatrist in the country will touch the thing with a bargepole now is NOTHING to do with RCC. They will express their position regarding Gay marriage. It seems there will be a referendum. The people will have their say. According to this thread there are so few Catholics around that their opinion doesn't count anyway. So, what undue influence?
Regarding compensation here's my opinion for what its worth.
The Irish Government stood by and did nothing while some Catholic clergy abused and tortured men women and children for years and years. So did An Gaurda Siochana and in actual fac5 the whole of Irish society. So I think the money is owed not just by the Church but the state as well. And I for one am very pleased if I can make my contribution by way of apology for the ignorance and stupidity and cruelty of the Irish people, as well as certain sections of the RCC

Choochtown · 08-03-2014 06:43PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

No joke. Point me to a link where choochtowns "taxes" were used by the Church to pay compensation. I put a few questions in that post as well, but I don't see any answers.

Sorry I can't seem to find one anywhere. The Catholic Church must have agreed to pay all of the compensation to the children that they raped and tortured over the years without asking or expecting the government to pay anything. Sorry for the confusion.

Choochtown · 08-03-2014 06:46PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

But it is the government that set. employment laws , not the RCC. Why is that so difficult to absorb? The RCC do not tell pubs to close. They do not tell Dublin Bus to run a Sunday service, or Irish Rail. That is between the semi state bodies and the Unions. I'm absolutely staggered that you seem to think it has anything to do with RCC.
Why do you think they unduly influenced the desicion to change the abortion law? They expressed their position. The law got changed anyway. The fact that apparently no psychiatrist in the country will touch the thing with a bargepole now is NOTHING to do with RCC. They will express their position regarding Gay marriage. It seems there will be a referendum. The people will have their say. According to this thread there are so few Catholics around that their opinion doesn't count anyway. So, what undue influence?
Regarding compensation here's my opinion for what its worth.
The Irish Government stood by and did nothing while some Catholic clergy abused and tortured men women and children for years and years. So did An Gaurda Siochana and in actual fac5 the whole of Irish society. So I think the money is owed not just by the Church but the state as well. And I for one am very pleased if I can make my contribution by way of apology for the ignorance and stupidity and cruelty of the Irish people, as well as certain sections of the RCC

By that logic the person who stands in fear whilst a violent person attacks someone in the street should also pay compensation to the victim.

shruikan2553 · 08-03-2014 06:48PM

Can we ban the sale of meat on Good Friday too? If you want to eat meat just buy it the day before, you can last one day without a steak and the butchers get a day off. Im also all for Alright Wednesday to let the retail staff have a day off and **** Off Monday for the office workers.

Can someone create a reason for someone being able to pick up a bottle of wine while shopping in Tesco for dinner on Good Friday while we allow the sale of meat?

mrsbyrne · 08-03-2014 06:52PM

Choochtown wrote: »

Sorry I can't seem to find one anywhere. The Catholic Church must have agreed to pay all of the compensation to the children that they raped and tortured over the years without asking or expecting the government to pay anything. Sorry for the confusion.

Did the Government, successive Governments, to whom you pay your taxes, have no responsibility at all in the matter of the abuse and torture of citizens? The entire country stood by include the government, the Guards and the health boards , and your ancestors and mine too and watched and did NOTHING while these children were abused by certain elements in the RCC.
So I don't mind if some of my taxes are used to compensate victims as long as we learn to never let it happen again.

08-03-2014 06:55PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Charming. It's a lot more than that when non christians/non religious people have to observe a tradition they have no part of.
Imagine of you had to observe a Jewish tradition whether you liked it or not.
:

If I was in a Jewish country I would expect no different. And if I was getting a day off for it all the better.

Jamsiek wrote: »

But I'm not a catholic basher, I just treat Good Friday like any other Friday especially on a long weekend.
Luckily I don't live in a country that stops me from doing it.

My point is that I don't think of the church when I have a drink, it doesn't matter to me.

Luckily for me I live in Ireland (and never want to live elsewhere) and get a day off while you are working.

mrsbyrne · 08-03-2014 06:56PM

Choochtown wrote: »

By that logic the person who stands in fear whilst a violent person attacks someone in the street should also pay compensation to the victim.

Oh I don't think the Guards or the health boards or any of the elected representatives were standing by in fear shivering and trembling in their shoes. Most of them were seemingly completely in agreement with how the institutions in a particular were operated.
Don't give me the old "fear" nonsense. Let's be adult about this.

shruikan2553 · 08-03-2014 06:57PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Did the Government, successive Governments, to whom you pay your taxes, have no responsibility at all in the matter of the abuse and torture of citizens? The entire country stood by include the government, the Guards and the health boards , and your ancestors and mine too and watched and did NOTHING while these children were abused by certain elements in the RCC.
So I don't mind if some of my taxes are used to compensate victims as long as we learn to never let it happen again.

In my opinion everyone at the time has partial blame for what happened but the crimes were committed by those who represent a group that preached morality and how to treat others right. The RCC abused its power and could have been the ones to stop it by punishing those they found to be abusing but instead they moved them elsewhere and kept it quiet, if you spoke out it was off to a workshop or laundry.

P_1 · 08-03-2014 06:58PM

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

If I was in a Jewish country I would expect no different. And if I was getting a day off for it all the better.

Yes true, however Ireland is supposed to be a secular republic

Femme_Fatale · 08-03-2014 07:00PM

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

If I was in a Jewish country I would expect no different. And if I was getting a day off for it all the better.

You keep going on about the day off thing but plenty don't get good Friday off. It doesn't matter that the religion practised by the majority of religious people is christianity here, there are still plenty of non practising people who shouldn't have to observe christian traditions and should have a choice.

Luckily for me I live in Ireland (and never want to live elsewhere) and get a day off while you are working.

What's the point in this sentence? Your "I'm grand with it, therefore that's all that matters" reasoning is... well it's not reasoning.

Jamsiek · 08-03-2014 07:04PM

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

Luckily for me I live in Ireland (and never want to live elsewhere) and get a day off while you are working.

You're wrong there. Good Friday is a public holiday where I live so I'll be enjoying the long weekend over a few drinks and won't have to think about any nanny state laws stopping me from doing it.

Choochtown · 08-03-2014 07:04PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Oh I don't think the Guards or the health boards or any of the elected representatives were standing by in fear shivering and trembling in their shoes. Most of them were seemingly completely in agreement with how the institutions in a particular were operated.
Don't give me the old "fear" nonsense. Let's be adult about this.

If they weren't afraid why did it take so long to bring the abuse out in the open? Are you actually suggesting that they knew about what was happening but were too lazy to do anything? Or maybe they didn't know in which case the Catholic Church (who did) are 100% responsible.

mikemac1 · 08-03-2014 07:08PM

Good Friday is a bank holiday, not a public holiday

Us banking scum never work Good Friday

mrsbyrne · 08-03-2014 07:17PM

Choochtown wrote: »

If they weren't afraid why did it take so long to bring the abuse out in the open? Are you actually suggesting that they knew about what was happening but were too lazy to do anything? Or maybe they didn't know in which case the Catholic Church (who did) are 100% responsible.

No. What you seem to be ignoring is the fact that despite the country being up in arms at the moment over this outrage, and rightly so, a good proportion of this lovely country during the 40s and 50s in particular actually agreed with the treatment of orphans and unmarried mothers in particuler.
This is an uncomfortable fact but a fact none the less. Down here in rural Ireland you would still come across shreds of it. Who do you think put the unwed pregnant girls in the laundries in the first place? A nun didn't come down to the house and abduct them you know? Their own parents brought them, and many were told to never darken the door again. The unwed pregnant daughter of a big farm or business was seriously hampering her sisters chances of landing a good match. The bold sister disappeared and she was often reffered to as having died of TB in the UK.
So not laziness but a sort of general badness that permeated the whole society.
Uncomfortable as I already said. But were not very good at facing up to ourselves as we really are, or should I say were.

08-03-2014 07:20PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

You keep going on about the day off thing but plenty don't get good Friday off. It doesn't matter that the religion practised by the majority of religious people is christianity here, there are still plenty of non practising people who shouldn't have to observe christian traditions and should have a choice.
.

Look it's obvious I'm not going to agree with you. As a catholic I agree with keeping Good Friday as it is and all the arguing in the world is not going to make me change my mind.

shruikan2553 · 08-03-2014 07:23PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

No. What you seem to be ignoring is the fact that despite the country being up in arms at the moment over this outrage, and rightly so, a good proportion of this lovely country during the 40s and 50s in particular actually agreed with the treatment of orphans and unmarried mothers in particuler.
This is an uncomfortable fact but a fact none the less. Down here in rural Ireland you would still come across shreds of it. Who do you think put the unwed pregnant girls in the laundries in the first place? A nun didn't come down to the house and abduct them you know? Their own parents brought them, and many were told to never darken the door again. The unwed pregnant daughter of a big farm or business was seriously hampering her sisters chances of landing a good match. The bold sister disappeared and she was often reffered to as having died of TB in the UK.
So not laziness but a sort of general badness that permeated the whole society.
Uncomfortable as I already said. But were not very good at facing up to ourselves as we really are, or should I say were.

Where did they get the idea that these unwed mothers need to be hidden away? Who ran the facilities to do so?

Jamsiek · 08-03-2014 07:24PM

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

Look it's obvious I'm not going to agree with you. As a catholic I agree with keeping Good Friday as it is and all the arguing in the world is not going to make me change my mind.

If other countries with catholic majorities (such as Spain, Portugal or Italy) don't have this law, why does Ireland?

Knight who says Meh · 08-03-2014 07:24PM

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

Look it's obvious I'm not going to agree with you. As a catholic I agree with keeping Good Friday as it is and all the arguing in the world is not going to make me change my mind.

Speaks volumes about a catholic up bringing really.

Femme_Fatale · 08-03-2014 07:30PM

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

Look it's obvious I'm not going to agree with you. As a catholic I agree with keeping Good Friday as it is and all the arguing in the world is not going to make me change my mind.

But that's entirely based on "I'm fine with it, therefore everyone else should be". Selfishness in other words. Good Friday pub/off-licence closure doesn't affect you, naturally, but that's absolutely zero grounds for not seeing how it does affect those who aren't you.

Femme_Fatale · 08-03-2014 07:31PM

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

Speaks volumes about a catholic up bringing really.

I don't really get that. I'd wager most people on this forum have had catholic upbringings, including myself.

P_1 · 08-03-2014 07:33PM

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

Look it's obvious I'm not going to agree with you. As a catholic I agree with keeping Good Friday as it is and all the arguing in the world is not going to make me change my mind.

Which is quite a selfish argument to be making. At the end of the day nobody is trying to force you to do to the pub on Good Friday or indeed not practice any of the catholic rituals associated with it, rather all they want is the freedom to treat the day as they would treat any other Friday

Galwayguy35 · 08-03-2014 07:40PM

mikemac1 wrote: »

Good Friday is a bank holiday, not a public holiday

Us banking scum never work Good Friday

How would it be a Bank Holiday?

I always work on GF like a lot of people.

08-03-2014 07:42PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

But that's entirely based on "I'm fine with it, therefore everyone else should be". Selfishness in other words. Good Friday pub/off-licence closure doesn't affect you, naturally, but that's absolutely zero grounds for not seeing how it does affect those who aren't you.

Sure almost everything suits some people and doesn't suit others. It's just the way world works. In sure there are plenty of things that suit you and not others and which you would be in no rush to change.

This is not even sometimg that suits people as such it's just sometijg that doesn't bother anyone with a bit of cop on. In general though I don't see what's wrong or out of the ordinary about being happy to accept sometijg that suits you.

mrsbyrne · 08-03-2014 07:46PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Where did they get the idea that these unwed mothers need to be hidden away? Who ran the facilities to do so?

I. Have freely acknowledged several times today that the RCC to their eternal shame ran these institutions. But im stating as fact that they didnt do it without alot of help from the rest of the country.
Your saying that the RCC brainwashed society into adopting the attitude that prevailed.
But how do you explain the shunning and exclusion of unwed mothers in countries and cultures where the Catholic churchs influence would be practically nil, in particular, and to this day, in parts of Africa?

H2UMrsRobinson · 08-03-2014 07:51PM

Some interesting points raised, as always amid some downright ridiculous ones. The thread seems to have mutated slightly so I'm gonna chuck in my 2pence worth.

I'm an atheist, I thought of going with non-denominational but that's a wee bit of a mouthful and would suggest a belief in something in general, rather than non belief. I don't think my atheism has ever impacted on believers in anyway. There are no holidays, no place of non-worship, no rules or guidelines and no leaders. I try not to impose my views on others though I'm happy to have a conversation on belief with others, it can get heated though - everyone thinks they're right. If you have faith I respect your right to believe, though I don't respect your chosen religion. I can understand the benefits of faith, community spirit, sense of right and wrong, charitable work etc. but these are not exclusively religious traits and could equally be achieved by any group organisation.

When religion creeps into daily life via education, lifestyle restrictions etc then I have a wee bit of a problem with it. Although in all honestly in this country it wouldn't really impinge on my day to day activities. There's usually a workaround. But then I'm not gay, in need of an abortion, a Good Friday binge drinker, or bound for a career in politics.

I was schooled in a UK "dump school" with no religious agenda - did quite well in my exams and chose to be an atheist. My daughter was schooled here in a catholic junior school, and is now in a non denom senior school - is doing quite well and has chosen to be an atheist too. To those that think this might have been my influence we never really discussed religion so the only parental influence would be by omission.

I guess why am I telling you all this is that I think belief or non-belief can only be a personal experience. I can't make generalisations - I have in the past - it's not particularly constructive.

We are fortunate that in current day Ireland we don't commit crimes in the name of religion. Historically the Catholic Church has some very shady moments (as has all humanity) but we don't live in the past so I'm not going to bring them into this debate.

In other news, students shot dead in their sleep by religious extremists. - THIS IS FCUKING ABHORRENT !

P_1 · 08-03-2014 07:54PM

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

Sure almost everything suits some people and doesn't suit others. It's just the way world works. In sure there are plenty of things that suit you and not others and which you would be in no rush to change.

This is not even sometimg that suits people as such it's just sometijg that doesn't bother anyone with a bit of cop on. In general though I don't see what's Wong or out of the ordinary about being happy to accept sometijg that suits you.

Well you see its one of those things that tend to irk most rational people. Here we have a religion that I don't believe in, imposing themselves on me and restricting what I can do for a day. Yes it is just a day put it's the principle of the damn thing.

It's an easy fix to remove something that causes antagonism towards the religion and its followers that will have minimal impact on the religion and its followers. I would have thought it was a bit of a no brainer.

Will you eat meat tomorrow

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