Is irish respected in Ireland?

richardh330 · 23-02-2014 12:38am #1

There was an interesting debate on the Saturday Night Show with Brendan O'Connor tonight featuring Bláthnaid Ní Chofaigh. The debate was of course about the Irish language in Ireland. They mentioned the future and respect of the language. Brendan also mentioned how all road signs and official documents are translated into Irish. But one man in the back was heard disputing this, what official document doesn't have a Gaeilge counterpart? Anyways just wanted to carry on this discussion here and wanted to hear the reactions of other people.

ahahah · 23-02-2014 12:58am

I agree it was very interesting. Personally I think it should die out look at all the immigration into the country. Our focus should certainly not be an ancient language that has no real purpose. As a linguist myself I have great respect for languages. In the case of Irish sorry Im just sick of it being forced on us. Employers look for strong linguistic skills in modern foreign languages not Irish. Would love to see this go to a vote here in Ireland

BTW- I was a bit shocked by 2 of her comments

1. that she's annoyed it takes so long to get an irish speaker on the phone
2. she would make all primary schools irish speaking

MOVE ON GUYS LANGUAGE IS D-E-A-D

Grudaire · 23-02-2014 3:00am

Tá an teanga B-E-O go fóill..

But of course if you actually think the language is dead (and have come on to the Irish Language forum to say so) you're either misguided or a troll.

@richardh you'll generally find pro-Gaeilge people on this forum. But then again no online forum is representative really. All official docs should be translated, but for example many gov websites are only available in English.

Insect Overlord · 23-02-2014 3:37am

ahahah wrote: »

As a linguist myself I have great respect for languages.

...

MOVE ON GUYS LANGUAGE IS D-E-A-D

Pull the other one! :rolleyes:

hullaballoo · 23-02-2014 1:12pm

ahahah wrote: »

As a linguist myself I have great respect for languages

...except Irish and, apparently, English.

An Riabhach · 24-02-2014 2:11pm

ahahah wrote: »

I agree it was very interesting. Personally I think it should die out look at all the immigration into the country. Our focus should certainly not be an ancient language that has no real purpose. As a linguist myself I have great respect for languages. In the case of Irish sorry Im just sick of it being forced on us. Employers look for strong linguistic skills in modern foreign languages not Irish. Would love to see this go to a vote here in Ireland

BTW- I was a bit shocked by 2 of her comments

1. that she's annoyed it takes so long to get an irish speaker on the phone
2. she would make all primary schools irish speaking

MOVE ON GUYS LANGUAGE IS D-E-A-D

So you think that because of the mass immigration into this country that everybody should embrace foreign languages and abandon our own??

NEVER.
Not me anyway.

Mar a deirimíd,agus deich míle duine eile breis agus seachtain ó shin-ROGHNAIMíD TODHCHAí D'ÁR dTEANGA.
Agus beidh sé sin le rá agam i mBéal Feirste freisin.

If you want to embrace foreign languages or foreign culture that is up to you-but know this-the Irish language is alive and well,and will be for a long long time yet.

Gaeilge Go Brách.

Micilin Muc · 24-02-2014 2:20pm

ahahah wrote: »

Employers look for strong linguistic skills in modern foreign languages not Irish.

Really? In what industry does that apply?

I've been working in the localisation industry for eight years, and it was my background in the Irish language that gave me an in-road to the industry. Not one employer in this industry would dismiss a candidate because they have strong linguistic skills in Irish.

So, again, to what industry does your comment apply?

hfallada · 24-02-2014 2:32pm

I sat beside people in a repeat that went to gaelscoils and had to relearn everything that they learnt for 14 years in school as they didn't know what certain words they learnt in Irish in english. If you learn business, economics etc through Irish. What use is it when you what the terms are in English when you go to college?

It isn't acceptable to push French on the Flemish people( Dutch speaking people in Belgium). Why should it be acceptable to push Irish on English speaker? Although it seems contradictory that Irish people have to use English in everyday life. I have friends from the Gaeltacht that haven't used Irish once since they left the gaelteacht. If you choose to use Irish, why should the tax payer pick up the tab.

We scrapped English language support to non-nationals in the recession. Why should spend money on a language that his little risk of dying out when we aren't supporting non-nationals that need to learn English otherwise we will have major issues in the future

Micilin Muc · 24-02-2014 2:48pm

hfallada wrote: »

I sat beside people in a repeat that went to gaelscoils and had to relearn everything that they learnt for 14 years in school as they didn't know what certain words they learnt in Irish in english. If you learn business, economics etc through Irish. What use is it when you what the terms are in English when you go to college?

Slight exaggeration there.

Bilingual education is not solely about learning a second language for the purposes of communicating through the second language. There are other cognitive benefits of bilingual education, such as increasing the efficiency of learning third and subsequent languages.

I did all my education through Irish, and studied economics and business through English books in college. I don't know why the people you're talking about couldn't just pick up a dictionary and work it out. The concepts are the same, just different words

I certainly didn't 'relearn' anything when I turned to studying the material in English.

hfallada wrote: »

We scrapped English language support to non-nationals in the recession. Why should spend money on a language that his little risk of dying out when we aren't supporting non-nationals that need to learn English otherwise we will have major issues in the future

So Ireland is going to have major issues because we're not spending money on teaching non-nationals English, the world's most spoken language?

GaelMise · 25-02-2014 12:08am

ahahah wrote: »

I agree it was very interesting. Personally I think it should die out look at all the immigration into the country. Our focus should certainly not be an ancient language that has no real purpose. As a linguist myself I have great respect for languages. In the case of Irish sorry Im just sick of it being forced on us. Employers look for strong linguistic skills in modern foreign languages not Irish. Would love to see this go to a vote here in Ireland

BTW- I was a bit shocked by 2 of her comments

1. that she's annoyed it takes so long to get an irish speaker on the phone
2. she would make all primary schools irish speaking

MOVE ON GUYS LANGUAGE IS D-E-A-D

You're no linguist and you certainly do not demonstrate any respect for the language.

GaelMise · 25-02-2014 12:10am

Grudaire wrote: »

All official docs should be translated.

I would agree that they 'should be'. However currently the vast majoity of official documents are not translated. The list of documents that are actually required to be translated under the OLA is quite limited.

GaelMise · 25-02-2014 12:14am

Micilin Muc wrote: »

English, the world's most spoken language?

Just goes to show how far the propaganda has penetrated when people are repeating it even when arguing against it.
English is not the worlds most spoken language.

dubhthach · 02-03-2014 8:58pm

richardh330 wrote: »

There was an interesting debate on the Saturday Night Show with Brendan O'Connor tonight featuring Bláthnaid Ní Chofaigh. The debate was of course about the Irish language in Ireland. They mentioned the future and respect of the language. Brendan also mentioned how all road signs and official documents are translated into Irish. But one man in the back was heard disputing this, what official document doesn't have a Gaeilge counterpart? Anyways just wanted to carry on this discussion here and wanted to hear the reactions of other people.

If the level of bile that is used against the Irish language was used against any other minority linguistic community in this state there would be blue-murder. Just as well "it's only Irish" (move along there, nothing to see).

An Riabhach · 02-03-2014 9:18pm

^^^^^^^^^^^^
All of the above.

ormeau 1 · 03-03-2014 2:22pm

richardh330 wrote: »

There was an interesting debate on the Saturday Night Show with Brendan O'Connor tonight featuring Bláthnaid Ní Chofaigh. The debate was of course about the Irish language in Ireland. They mentioned the future and respect of the language. Brendan also mentioned how all road signs and official documents are translated into Irish. But one man in the back was heard disputing this, what official document doesn't have a Gaeilge counterpart? Anyways just wanted to carry on this discussion here and wanted to hear the reactions of other people.

Hi OP,

There are a fair few people in Ireland who are completely ignorant of the Irish language and it's status and use outside 'the Pale'. I went to Irish speaking primary and secondary schools and my English suffered as a result. However it wasn't something I was too conscious of until I went to Uni. Some lecturers remarked negatively at the quality of my written English and assumed because I was Irish, that a certain standard of written English was expected of me? I mean the cheek! Can you imagine if you made the same argument against half the student population of Ireland that their Irish wasn't up to scratch? They would laugh at you!

Some don't realize that Irish is also an official language in Ireland practiced on a daily basis and yet you never get the opportunity to attend lectures conducted in Irish, that is unless, you are studying something Irish language related.

I bet you would be hard pressed to find a lecturer who would give you exam papers in Irish and let alone, correct them for you!.

GaelMise · 03-03-2014 10:40pm

ormeau 1 wrote: »

I bet you would be hard pressed to find a lecturer who would give you exam papers in Irish and let alone, correct them for you!.

Interesting question, I was talking about this with a few people before, it seems to be a bit of a grey area, if you submitted an essay in Irish, it would be very hard for them to justify rejecting it, however it would also be quite difficult to deal with if the lecture did not have Irish themselves, they would need to get it translated, and then correct it.

Missyelliot2 · 06-03-2014 1:18am

Hi OP,

I wish there was more respect for the Irish Language. I'm a parent and my heart sinks when either 'Bun go Barr' or 'Tús maith' (which are two godawful primary school books) arrive home. My kids don't attend a gaelscoil, but I would have always spoke my cúpla focail to them when they were little. There was absolutely no animosity towards the irish language in our home.
I attended a university here, which, because I wasn't a 'gaeilgóir' and wasn't studying irish as part of my degree, had to take a course in 'Gaeilge Ghairmiuil' - this is known as professional irish. My Dad, (who's a native irish speaker) struggled through the rules with me!

Two of my teenagers attended the Irish Colleges for the summer came home with a respect for the living language. They lived in houses where peoples daily lives were conducted through Irish and it became the norm. They were so full of enthusiasm, but by November, once again the education system had knocked it out of them - learning essays about poems like 'Faoilean', almost brought me back to 'Peig'!

There is no desire by the Government to promote the Irish Language. I think we had our chance when we were 'proud to be irish' in the 90s - (football, the Snapper, Hothouse Flowers, Riverdance, U2), unfortunately, it wasn't built upon - except for Gaelscoilenna - which do happen to be exclusive as, (due to their irish exclusivity), they can't really cater for non-nationals/special needs etc.)
So, we are back at square one!

kingchess · 06-03-2014 7:56pm

I d do not think the gaelscoils are exclusive,my youngest daughter goes to the local one and of the 14 kids in her class I would say that about 5 have at least one parent who is not Irish,and 2 children whose parents are both non-Irish,ie-russian and Polish.my partner came to Ireland when she was 17 from Germany with no English whatsoever ,just in time to go to school for the final year and sit her leaving cert,she does not understand the Irish attitude to learning "your Native Language". I left school knowing more French than Irish,years later I met my partner and picked up conversational German in less than a year with her. it is only in the past few years that I became more interested in learning Irish(with a big push from my partner),

deirdremf · 07-03-2014 12:05am

Missyelliot2 wrote: »

Hi OP,

I wish there was more respect for the Irish Language. I'm a parent and my heart sinks when either 'Bun go Barr' or 'Tús maith' (which are two godawful primary school books) arrive home. My kids don't attend a gaelscoil, but I would have always spoke my cúpla focail to them when they were little. There was absolutely no animosity towards the irish language in our home.
I attended a university here, which, because I wasn't a 'gaeilgóir' and wasn't studying irish as part of my degree, had to take a course in 'Gaeilge Ghairmiuil' - this is known as professional irish. My Dad, (who's a native irish speaker) struggled through the rules with me!

Hi Missy, I am interested in this. I wonder why your father didn't speak to you in Irish? Have you ever discussed it with him? Just imagine you would have both languages if he had, what a pity it didn't happen.

Two of my teenagers attended the Irish Colleges for the summer came home with a respect for the living language. They lived in houses where peoples daily lives were conducted through Irish and it became the norm. They were so full of enthusiasm, but by November, once again the education system had knocked it out of them - learning essays about poems like 'Faoilean', almost brought me back to 'Peig'!

There is no desire by the Government to promote the Irish Language. I think we had our chance when we were 'proud to be irish' in the 90s - (football, the Snapper, Hothouse Flowers, Riverdance, U2), unfortunately, it wasn't built upon - except for Gaelscoilenna - which do happen to be exclusive as, (due to their irish exclusivity), they can't really cater for non-nationals/special needs etc.)
So, we are back at square one!

Like some other people here, I don't think this is actually true, my kids' schools have all had foreign families attending them, and lots of half-and-halfs. And despite what you will hear in other places, very socially mixed, too.

Missyelliot2 · 07-03-2014 11:43am

deirdremf wrote: »

Hi Missy, I am interested in this. I wonder why your father didn't speak to you in Irish? Have you ever discussed it with him? Just imagine you would have both languages if he had, what a pity it didn't happen.
Like some other people here, I don't think this is actually true, my kids' schools have all had foreign families attending them, and lots of half-and-halfs. And despite what you will hear in other places, very socially mixed, too.

Hi there,
I did not intend to give the impression that I'm not bi-lingual - I am, thanks to my dad. However, for the Gaeilge Ghairimiuil course, there were so many rules that a native Irish speaker struggled with them too. My dad knows what's right by the sound, rather than the grammatical rules.

Re the Gaelscoileanna, I just wonder if a child with special needs ie asperger/autism may find it a bit more of a struggle than in a school that operates in english?

Micilin Muc · 07-03-2014 11:52am

Missyelliot2 wrote: »

Re the Gaelscoileanna, I just wonder if a child with special needs ie asperger/autism may find it a bit more of a struggle than in a school that operates in english?

There are two children in my local all-Irish secondary who have Down's Syndrome and I know of a good few more who have attended other all-Irish secondary schools without bilingualism negatively affecting their development.

I don't know enough about Aspergers or autism to say what kind of difficulties they may encounter.

The whole 'elitism' argument is a load of rubbish. There are zero Gaelscoileanna in Dublin 4, but two in Dublin 9 and two in Dublin 11 ...

Missyelliot2 · 07-03-2014 11:56am

Micilin Muc wrote: »

There are two children in my local all-Irish secondary who have Down's Syndrome and I know of a good few more who have attended other all-Irish secondary schools without bilingualism negatively affecting their development.

I don't know enough about Aspergers or autism to say what kind of difficulties they may encounter.

The whole 'elitism' argument is a load of rubbish. There are zero Gaelscoileanna in Dublin 4, but two in Dublin 9 and two in Dublin 11 ...

That's good to hear re the children with Downs Syndrome.
Re Aspergers, the children often do 'social stories' which they take home to read to the parents/guardians. If the parents don't have a grip on the language, it must be hard.

Micilin Muc · 07-03-2014 12:04pm

Missyelliot2 wrote: »

Re Aspergers, the children often do 'social stories' which they take home to read to the parents/guardians. If the parents don't have a grip on the language, it must be hard.

Good point.

I would imagine it would not be in the best interest of a child with these kinds of special needs to attend a school teaching through the child's second language if their parents don't speak the second language too. I have no evidence of this, but I suspect it may be the case. The effects of second-language education on children with special needs is something I have a personal interest in but haven't done much research on it.

deirdremf · 08-03-2014 12:26am

Missyelliot2 wrote: »

Hi there,
I did not intend to give the impression that I'm not bi-lingual - I am, thanks to my dad. However, for the Gaeilge Ghairimiuil course, there were so many rules that a native Irish speaker struggled with them too. My dad knows what's right by the sound, rather than the grammatical rules.

Glad to hear it!

Re the Gaelscoileanna, I just wonder if a child with special needs ie asperger/autism may find it a bit more of a struggle than in a school that operates in english?

Depends very much on the school.
The whole Gaelscoil thing is run in a very hit-and-miss way in Ireland.
There are lots of reasons for this.
One important reason is the lack of proper resourcing in the Irish-language sector, which means that training for teachers is lacking in a great many aspects that are available in English.
Also the English-language sector receives "free" resources and research from US, UK, Oz etc. with the result that the Dept. of Education forgets that someone had to pay to carry out the research and to produce the materials in English - and doesn't seem to know or care that the Irish language sector doesn't have this back up available to it.
Another factor is that when the Educational establishment produces materials for Irish it is usually on the basis of translating stuff from English. This generally means that the materials are not properly adapted for use in a different linguistic environment, and on top of that the language used is very often not natural Irish (have you ever read a translated novel? if so, you will have noticed that while the story is fine, the language is off in places). And even worse, a lot of the materials are translated by people that Irish is a second language for - they don't always capture the finer nuances of meaning as a result.
On top of that, most teachers in Gaelscoileanna have Irish as a second language, and so what I have said about translators goes for the teachers too.
And of course, there is no teacher-training college that works through Irish. With the exception of a few teachers in Belfast each year, all primary teachers are trained entirely through English.

It's a miracle that any children come out of Gaelscoileanna with even half-decent Irish, and it is a credit to the teachers that their pupils do as well as they do under the circumstances.

briany · 05-04-2014 5:23pm

Very much in favour of the Irish language as an idea but, like for so many others, the dreary rote learning of it in school was the bane of my academic career. It made the Irish language something to be endured rather than appreciated. Maths, English, History and Geography etc. while they could be similarly boring at times, even basic aspects of what was learned would at least have some practical benefits to all people who studied them. I would very much like to see Irish pulled from the mandatory curriculum and made an elective to be studied in secondary schools, and taught as a foreign language with the scrapping of all poetry etc. simply give the students the tools to express their own thoughts in the language. Why would that be so hard?

GaelMise · 05-04-2014 5:27pm

briany wrote: »

Very much in favour of the Irish language as an idea but, like for so many others, the dreary rote learning of it in school was the bane of my academic career. It made the Irish language something to be endured rather than appreciated. Maths, English, History and Geography etc. while they could be similarly boring at times, even basic aspects of what was learned would at least have some practical benefits to all people who studied them. I would very much like to see Irish pulled from the mandatory curriculum and made an elective to be studied in secondary schools, and taught as a foreign language with the scrapping of all poetry etc. simply give the students the tools to express their own thoughts in the language. Why would that be so hard?

Wouldent work, they tried making languages optional in England 10 years ago. It was a disaster, I can't see any reason to assume that Irish would fare better here than French and German did there as optional subjects.

briany · 05-04-2014 5:57pm

GaelMise wrote: »

Wouldent work, they tried making languages optional in England 10 years ago. It was a disaster, I can't see any reason to assume that Irish would fare better here than French and German did there as optional subjects.

So what if it's a disaster? It can't be any more disastrous than what's already been done but at least in this disaster, the kids would get a choice, the state might save some money and the reform might also allow us to re-examine the way that the language is taught. If the language would sink without a trace because it's not being artificially supported by compulsory education, why should it even be taught in schools in the first place?

BelleOfTheBall · 05-04-2014 6:22pm

I wasnt huge fan going to school.however I watched in the name of fada years ago when i was expecting 1st child.it really really hit me.its our heritages our history etc.ive my kids going now to gaelscoil the language lovely to hear I suppose im doing my bit.the irish I learnt completely difference.if anything gone v modern.i hope this is a positive spin for anyone reading this.

deirdremf · 06-04-2014 3:01pm

briany wrote: »

Very much in favour of the Irish language as an idea

Now where did I hear that before? Oh yeah, FG before the last election, wasn't it? the people who have taken measure after measure against the Irish languague in the last 3 years, IIRC

but, like for so many others, the dreary rote learning of it in school was the bane of my academic career.

I suppose they beat it into you too?

It made the Irish language something to be endured rather than appreciated. Maths, English, History and Geography etc. while they could be similarly boring at times, even basic aspects of what was learned would at least have some practical benefits to all people who studied them. I would very much like to see Irish pulled from the mandatory curriculum and made an elective to be studied in secondary schools, and taught as a foreign language with the scrapping of all poetry etc. simply give the students the tools to express their own thoughts in the language. Why would that be so hard?

Yeah, that's the FG mantra OK. "Let's get rid of Irish so that it will do better in future". Sure thing, kid, you're not transparent or anything.
Aren't you needed somewhere else to defend the Justice minister?

briany · 06-04-2014 3:51pm

deirdremf wrote: »

Now where did I hear that before? Oh yeah, FG before the last election, wasn't it? the people who have taken measure after measure against the Irish languague in the last 3 years, IIRC

I suppose they beat it into you too?

Yeah, that's the FG mantra OK. "Let's get rid of Irish so that it will do better in future". Sure thing, kid, you're not transparent or anything.
Aren't you needed somewhere else to defend the Justice minister?

If you want to respond to my points with sarcasm and be all chippy about it, that's fine. You could be taking the mental effort used to actually come up with counter arguments, though, and we might actually have something approximating an enlightening and/or useful debate.

Talking about a reform in the way that the language is taught and related to people does not necessarily constitute an attack on it or measures against it, by the way. I think you read too much into what I'm trying to say. There is a genuine need to do something in that regard, but if you don't agree, that's fine, just don't go wondering why more people aren't embracing the language or why some regard it as an anathema.

An gal gréine · 07-04-2014 2:21pm

briany wrote: »

...taught as a foreign language with the scrapping of all poetry etc. simply give the students the tools to express their own thoughts in the language. Why would that be so hard?

I think this would be far better than what we have at the moment.

Tombo2001 · 07-04-2014 2:31pm

Problem with the Irish language in my view is the people who promote it.

They are coming at it from the wrong angle.

They are coming at it from the angle of entitlement.

"This is Ireland. Ireland is our language. Therefore the state should be obliged to do X Y and Z to promote it. Therefore all children should have to learn it".

The angle should be:

Irish culture is fun. GAA is fun. Irish dancing is fun and so is Irish music. And Ireland is a great place to live and go on holidays.

And Irish is a fun language for kids to learns, and practicing Irish with your kids is a fun thing for parents to do.

At the moment its not fun to speak Irish. Its hard to get an Irish book for kids that doesnt have some poxy celtic drawings and a story about Finn McCool. Who wants that?!!! Why does Irish language and Irish culture have to part of the same package? No child wants to read Peig.

The best Irish books I've found for kids are the Julia Donaldson books, The Gruffalo etc, translated into Irish. They like the stories, and it means they will go along with the words in Irish, instead of instant boredom.

My son, who is 6, says that Irish is a secret language that only Irish people know. Thats how he rationalises it, thats a special secret that only Irish people have.

And that makes sense.

He also says that English is the language that people speak in Ireland. And that is a fact. English is the language of Ireland. Full stop. Don't try to fight it. Is there a single person in this country who can speak Irish and not speak English? I doubt it.

Irish is a language that some people here speak.

If gaeilgoirs could concentrate on making a language that is a positive option rather than an obligation, it would improve things considerably.

Tombo2001 · 07-04-2014 2:41pm

GaelMise wrote: »

Just goes to show how far the propaganda has penetrated when people are repeating it even when arguing against it.
English is not the worlds most spoken language.

I think the point is well made.

It may not be the worlds most spoken language.

But English is clearly the world's 'international' language.

briany · 07-04-2014 5:04pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Problem with the Irish language in my view is the people who promote it.

They are coming at it from the wrong angle.

They are coming at it from the angle of entitlement.

"This is Ireland. Ireland is our language. Therefore the state should be obliged to do X Y and Z to promote it. Therefore all children should have to learn it".

I think there was a great mistake made upon the establishment of Irish independence where Ireland was taken to be culturally homogenous with a shared history and identity, totally ignoring the fact that the island had been for the great majority of it's history a land divided along clannish lines, and had been influenced in different ways - culturally, linguistically - by a number of foreign invaders also. This all means that the man from the Pale might have a different outlook and cultural appreciation to the man down in Wexford or the Ulster Scots man up in Donegal.

What should have been done was make the Irish language a protected minority language and taken every measure to protect the language, including providing full services as Gaeilge in areas where it was spoken by a clear majority, provided economic support to Gaelic areas in order to stem the tide of emigration and set up educational services and resources that could be availed of by anyone choosing to educate themselves in the language, young or old.

Tombo2001 · 08-04-2014 9:50am

briany wrote: »

I think there was a great mistake made upon the establishment of Irish independence where Ireland was taken to be culturally homogenous with a shared history and identity, totally ignoring the fact that the island had been for the great majority of it's history a land divided along clannish lines, and had been influenced in different ways - culturally, linguistically - by a number of foreign invaders also. This all means that the man from the Pale might have a different outlook and cultural appreciation to the man down in Wexford or the Ulster Scots man up in Donegal.

What should have been done was make the Irish language a protected minority language and taken every measure to protect the language, including providing full services as Gaeilge in areas where it was spoken by a clear majority, provided economic support to Gaelic areas in order to stem the tide of emigration and set up educational services and resources that could be availed of by anyone choosing to educate themselves in the language, young or old.

I'd agree with that, but the state is almost 100 years old now so there was plenty of time to remedy it.

One could make an argument that the failure of the Irish language is bound in with the Irish state's historical lack of respect for children as citizens or as individuals (I know this is getting a bit far fetched.....but it is a common thread through post-independence Irish history).

There has never been any effort really to make Irish interesting or attractive for children growing up. Middle aged people recall their Irish classes with groans and curse words and resentment. The language was forced on them like cold lumpy porridge. No kid likes that, but the state couldnt recognise it / stroke / didnt give a damn.

I dont get the impression that a whole lot has changed in Secondary school. I might be wrong.

briany · 08-04-2014 3:14pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I'd agree with that, but the state is almost 100 years old now so there was plenty of time to remedy it.

One could make an argument that the failure of the Irish language is bound in with the Irish state's historical lack of respect for children as citizens or as individuals (I know this is getting a bit far fetched.....but it is a common thread through post-independence Irish history).

There has never been any effort really to make Irish interesting or attractive for children growing up. Middle aged people recall their Irish classes with groans and curse words and resentment. The language was forced on them like cold lumpy porridge. No kid likes that, but the state couldnt recognise it / stroke / didnt give a damn.

I dont get the impression that a whole lot has changed in Secondary school. I might be wrong.

An apathetic attitude is/was a problem in the teaching of the language. The reason for a lot of dreary rote learning is that teachers often have a certain academic standard hanging over their head, usually in the form of some sort of looming examination which is basically a glorified memory test, so they must teach to the curriculum, and that's a pity because the Irish teachers I had clearly had a passion for the language, but they were hamstrung. If one is against pulling it from the compulsory rotation, I'm not sure why, other than a strange paranoia but what about this compromise - pulling Irish examinations from education up to and including J Cert level, but compulsory, let the teachers teach it in a relaxed conversational fashion, building it up bit by bit, and then make it an elective (with exam) for the Leaving?

GaelMise · 08-04-2014 4:42pm

briany wrote: »

An apathetic attitude is/was a problem in the teaching of the language. The reason for a lot of dreary rote learning is that teachers often have a certain academic standard hanging over their head, usually in the form of some sort of looming examination which is basically a glorified memory test, so they must teach to the curriculum, and that's a pity because the Irish teachers I had clearly had a passion for the language, but they were hamstrung. If one is against pulling it from the compulsory rotation, I'm not sure why, other than a strange paranoia but what about this compromise - pulling Irish examinations from education up to and including J Cert level, but compulsory, let the teachers teach it in a relaxed conversational fashion, building it up bit by bit, and then make it an elective (with exam) for the Leaving?

Couldent agree to this either. There is no simple quick fix to this problem. Make it optional, or make it a non-exam subject, are not viable solutions. Back of a stamp solutions rarely are.

briany · 08-04-2014 5:15pm

GaelMise wrote: »

Couldent agree to this either. There is no simple quick fix to this problem. Make it optional, or make it a non-exam subject, are not viable solutions. Back of a stamp solutions rarely are.

You oversimplified my post somewhat and didn't offer any reasoning of your own to back up your view as to why it wouldn't work, which isn't particularly constructive. At least I'm throwing an idea around.

I said make it an elective for the Leaving and have it taught in a relaxed conversational fashion, compulsorily, up to JC level. The idea there would be to get the student reasonably fluent in the natural language in 11 or so years, which I think is a reasonable time frame, but let them decide to continue studying it toward an exam that may actually matter to their future or opt out and study something else if it's something to which they do not take.

pog it · 08-04-2014 5:58pm

briany wrote: »

You oversimplified my post somewhat and didn't offer any reasoning of your own to back up your view as to why it wouldn't work, which isn't particularly constructive. At least I'm throwing an idea around.

I said make it an elective for the Leaving and have it taught in a relaxed conversational fashion up to JC level. The idea there would be to get the student reasonably fluent in the natural language in 11 or so years, which I think is a reasonable time frame, but let them decide to continue studying it toward an exam that may actually matter to their future or opt out and study something else if it's something to which they do not take.

I used to be one of those who thought that Irish should stay a compulsory subject right through 2nd level as students who had a choice and didn't take it up might regret that decision later, and have a lesser feeling of attachment to Irish, etc.
A couple of years ago I realised I was wrong. We shouldn't be forcing it on students all the way up to Leaving Cert. I'd rather see the investment going into proper Irish language training for trainee primary school teachers and agree with you completely about making it optional after Junior Cert, but compulsory up to Junior Cert level.

Unfortunately with the state of Irish teaching in primary schools as it is, we can't afford to make Irish optional in secondary school yet. Also it looks like even the Junior Cert is being dumbed down by Ruairí Quinn so that in itself is dangerous.

briany · 08-04-2014 6:44pm

pog it wrote: »

I used to be one of those who thought that Irish should stay a compulsory subject right through 2nd level as students who had a choice and didn't take it up might regret that decision later, and have a lesser feeling of attachment to Irish, etc.
A couple of years ago I realised I was wrong. We shouldn't be forcing it on students all the way up to Leaving Cert. I'd rather see the investment going into proper Irish language training for trainee primary school teachers and agree with you completely about making it optional after Junior Cert, but compulsory up to Junior Cert level.

Unfortunately with the state of Irish teaching in primary schools as it is, we can't afford to make Irish optional in secondary school yet. Also it looks like even the Junior Cert is being dumbed down by Ruairí Quinn so that in itself is dangerous.

I'm sure, though, that people have later regretted not choosing to study all manner of optional subjects later in life but those subjects remain optional. I wouldn't say Irish has an exceptional right to remain on the compulsory timetable on this basis or on one that reflects it's practicality in everyday life. Ideally, everything would be elective after the JC but I realise you could be talking about trying to essentially provide an a la carte scholastic menu which could end in a clusterf*ck for timetabling, university applications, putting pressure on a 16 year old to get the subject mix 'right' and all that, so it probably couldn't happen.

If, as you say, it could be even further dumbed down, you'd wonder when the penny would drop with people that the government and education system don't really care about actually teaching Irish and seem to regard it as a mere trinket of nationalistic vanity, and you'd further wonder why more Geailgeoirí aren't clamouring for change, or seemingly ignore what's going on/what has been going on. Don't they want to see people truly embracing the language rather than paying it lip service?

GaelMise · 08-04-2014 7:38pm

briany wrote: »

You oversimplified my post somewhat and didn't offer any reasoning of your own to back up your view as to why it wouldn't work, which isn't particularly constructive. At least I'm throwing an idea around.

I said make it an elective for the Leaving and have it taught in a relaxed conversational fashion, compulsorily, up to JC level. The idea there would be to get the student reasonably fluent in the natural language in 11 or so years, which I think is a reasonable time frame, but let them decide to continue studying it toward an exam that may actually matter to their future or opt out and study something else if it's something to which they do not take.

I have already give my reason for why I dont believe making it elective for the leaving would be a good idea. Making languages optional was a disaster in England and I see no reasonable argument for why it would be any different here.
As for restructuring the curriculum, yes, I have no problem with that, its badly needed in fact. But again no evidence that making it a non-exam subject would be in any way beneficial.
Arguments that are premised on 'sher lets give this a go for a while' rather than a properly worked out rational supported by evidence are not likely to get my support.

briany · 08-04-2014 8:26pm

GaelMise wrote: »

I have already give my reason for why I dont believe making it elective for the leaving would be a good idea. Making languages optional was a disaster in England and I see no reasonable argument for why it would be any different here.
As for restructuring the curriculum, yes, I have no problem with that, its badly needed in fact. But again no evidence that making it a non-exam subject would be in any way beneficial.
Arguments that are premised on 'sher lets give this a go for a while' rather than a properly worked out rational supported by evidence are not likely to get my support.

Frankly, the government's apparent attempt to reverse a nation wide language shift through some shambolic, lifeless scholastic means and a few tokenistic gestures in the wider public sphere doesn't seem particularly well worked out or rational and the statistics would bear that out because by every stat going, the number of native, fluent speakers has declined since the beginning of Irish education and the ongoing project to get the nation to some real degree of bilingual proficiency has been a total failure. 'Sher' they gave one thing a go. It's had several decades. Maybe it's time to try something else. I'm certainly not saying this thread is going to influence government policy or something, it's an online discussion. I'm just talking about ways in which change could happen.

As for the disastrousness of foreign languages like, as you say, French and German being made optional in England, there's a lot more to argue for the greater economic and social cost of doing so because hundreds of millions of people speak those languages and so there's a huge utility socially, economically and culturally in learning one or both for a person who does so. While I'm not for the compulsory learning of any language outside the majority one of the land you live, I'd say there's far more argument to make French, German, Spanish or Chinese compulsory subjects than Irish in terms of the potential opportunities it affords to a person.

I keep being misquoted on the exam bit as I said make it an optional subject with LC exam and I can tell you who it would benefit - people who want to stay on and complete their schooling but feel their time would be better invested studying a subject they have an actual interest in. At least up until JC it might be compulsory but there'd be no pressure to teach to a test. How would this do in the wild as a means to get students to actually get involved with it as a living language? Well it can't do much worse than the method that's already been tried, that's for sure.

Is irish respected in Ireland?

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