Will you eat meat tomorrow

mrsbyrne · 06-03-2014 05:08PM

Tasden wrote: »

Take away the necessity for the child to be baptised in order to be guaranteed a place and you would see a lot more parents opting out. But that's ifs and buts and "seeminglies" :pac:

You havnt answered my question at all tasden. You chose to send your child to a school with a religous ethos that you dont agree with. You have said that your child is the only one who is asking to be excused RE. yet you think that the school should drop its ethos just for you.
Are you saying that the other parents are all spineless cowards?
Are you also telling us that you had your child baptised into an organisation you hold in absolute contempt??

Tasden · 06-03-2014 05:10PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

But the poster says that even though so much time is "wasted" on religious teaching in this school, its still a better school than the educate together school down the road. How do you explain this?
Also, I dont know if you were educated in a religous school here in Ireland or not, but I was, and despite "wasting" so much time on RE, going to Mass, going to confession, May Procession, Corpus Christie Procession, Nuns funerals, choir practice, Devotions etc., my year still turned out many professionals including teachers doctors nurses solicitors accountants and a Minister for Education.

Because the national school is in a proper building with proper facilities, the ET is in a prefab. Amongst other things obviously.

I didn't say that religion takes away from their overall education, I've made sure it doesn't by giving her homework myself on the days she's lacking some. I never said that it lessens how much people are taught, I just don't agree with teaching children to believe stories about angels and miracles outright, and have ceremonies based on them, when they could be actually learning and thinking objectively and questioning the world they're in. All the religious stuff should be done by parents not teachers. Or if done by teachers then done with regards to religion in general and not just catholicism.

And I was raised Catholic and went to a catholic school. Still don't agree with it.

mrsbyrne · 06-03-2014 05:13PM

Tasden wrote: »

Because the national school is in a proper building with proper facilities, the ET is in a prefab. Amongst other things obviously.

I didn't say that religion takes away from their overall education, I've made sure it doesn't by giving her homework myself on the days she's lacking some. I never said that it lessens how much people are taught, I just don't agree with teaching children to believe stories about angels and miracles outright, and have ceremonies based on them, when they could be actually learning and thinking objectively and questioning the world they're in. All the religious stuff should be done by parents not teachers. Or if done by teachers then done with regards to religion in general and not just catholicism.

And I was raised Catholic and went to a catholic school. Still don't agree with it.

The post you are qouting was addressed to akrasia tasden, but i appreciate your response, i have replied to you further down the page.

Tasden · 06-03-2014 05:16PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

You havnt answered my question at all tasden. You chose to send your child to a school with a religous ethos that you dont agree with. You have said that your child is the only one who is asking to be excused RE. yet you think that the school should drop its ethos just for you.
Are you saying that the other parents are all spineless cowards?
Are you also telling us that you had your child baptised into an organisation you hold in absolute contempt??

The school should drop its "ethos" for all children in Ireland. Not mine. All children that deserve the right to make up their own mind.

I'm not saying anything of other parents as I can only speak for myself however I do know that plenty of parents are faced with the dilemma of baptising or not based on acceptance into local schools, you only have to do a search on boards here or go to enrolment day and ask parents. And once baptised they just go through RE by default usually.

And no I didn't baptise my child. She will make that decision herself objectively not because her school told her she should or her parents imposed it upon her when she was a baby.

Also, absolute contempt? I just disagree with their involvement in schools and think its a load of bs tbh. I don't spit venom when I speak about Jesus or anything

I read the bible with my child and I'm supporting her through lent etc.

Kiwi in IE · 06-03-2014 05:16PM

Melissa Mammoth Trademark wrote: »

Where are the Church still 'opposing' contraception.

In places where it is arguably the most damaging to do so;

http://www.consultancyafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1135:the-catholic-church-versus-hivaids-in-africa-&catid=61:hiv-aids-discussion-papers&Itemid=268

Don't be fooled! The only reason they do not campaign against contraception in Ireland is that they know well enough that a massive percentage of those who call themselves Catholic officially, are not fully practising and they would be at risk of loosing their support (census ticking, participation in rituals and customs), and therefore the societal privilege they enjoy, if they start overtly proselytising about issues like that, divorce etc.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 06-03-2014 05:30PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

In places where it is arguably the most damaging to do so;

http://www.consultancyafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1135:the-catholic-church-versus-hivaids-in-africa-&catid=61:hiv-aids-discussion-papers&Itemid=268

Don't be fooled! The only reason they do not campaign against contraception in Ireland is that they know well enough that a massive percentage of those who call themselves Catholic officially, are not fully practising and they would be at risk of loosing their support (census ticking, participation in rituals and customs), and therefore the societal privilege they enjoy, if they start overtly proselytising about issues like that, divorce etc.

Really? Who told you that?

Kiwi in IE · 06-03-2014 05:58PM

Melissa Mammoth Trademark wrote: »

Really? Who told you that?

Do you think that if the RCC start overtly campaigning against contraception, divorce etc that the 90% of the population who tick Catholic on the census will be supportive of it?

Fred Swanson · 06-03-2014 06:09PM

This post has been deleted.

mrsbyrne · 06-03-2014 06:13PM

Tasden wrote: »

The school should drop its "ethos" for all children in Ireland. Not mine. All children that deserve the right to make up their own mind.

I'm not saying anything of other parents as I can only speak for myself however I do know that plenty of parents are faced with the dilemma of baptising or not based on acceptance into local schools, you only have to do a search on boards here or go to enrolment day and ask parents. And once baptised they just go through RE by default usually.

And no I didn't baptise my child. She will make that decision herself objectively not because her school told her she should or her parents imposed it upon her when she was a baby.

Also, absolute contempt? I just disagree with their involvement in schools and think its a load of bs tbh. I don't spit venom when I speak about Jesus or anything I read the bible with my child and I'm supporting her through lent etc.

A lot of parents around the world consider that their child needs to be taught and led by them, the mature responsible adult. I can see that your an excellent parent and your teaching your child right from wrong, and to always treat others with courtesy and respect.
Lots of parents also think its highly suitable to teach their children to believe what they believe in spiritually and bring the children to join in any practices that go along with it. Then when the children are approaching adulthood they let them make their own minds up.
You seem to be doing this a different way " I'm supporting her through lent".

Tasden · 06-03-2014 06:32PM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

A lot of parents around the world consider that their child needs to be taught and led by them, the mature responsible adult. I can see that your an excellent parent and your teaching your child right from wrong, and to always treat others with courtesy and respect.
Lots of parents also think its highly suitable to teach their children to believe what they believe in spiritually and bring the children to join in any practices that go along with it. Then when the children are approaching adulthood they let them make their own minds up.
You seem to be doing this a different way " I'm supporting her through lent".

I'd agree with you in relation to letting them decide when they're older and until then teaching them the beliefs you hold if it were possible to "undo" the sacraments such as baptismal, but at this point that is no longer possible and so if people are baptising that child with the idea that they can change their mind at a later date then technically the child will have no choice at all. Then unless they go to an ET school, which are damn hard to get into unless you apply at birth in a lot of places including the one my child would have attended, then they are being taught about Catholicism so the parent's belief is just being reinforced rather than the child deciding for themselves.

Anyway I think that whole debate has been done to death on here, I was just pointing it out as a source of frustration and hostility towards the church for a lot of people in this country and it does have a bearing on their everyday life to an extent.

Maximus Alexander · 06-03-2014 06:35PM

I had beef for lunch and pork for dinner.

Someone commented on the beef in my lunch at work, I paused momentarily trying to figure out what they were talking about and then went :rolleyes:

Tasden · 06-03-2014 06:43PM

Oh also to answer the actual OP I don't eat meat anyway but I explained the day and fasting to my daughter and asked her what she wanted and she chose chicken

Galwayguy35 · 06-03-2014 07:33PM

eyescreamcone wrote: »

I don't agree.
If your beliefs are ridiculous prepare to be ridiculed.

So what do you do, find out who is Catholic and go up to them and tell them they are a fool to believe and it's ridiculous?

Funny enough I have never come across someone like you who would say that to me or anyone else which makes me think you say fook all in real life, or definately wouldn't phrase it like that to people.

There must be nobody in the A and A forum seeing as ye are all over here.

maguic24 · 06-03-2014 07:51PM

Woah, what happened to this thread being about meat? I just read the last page of comments and thought 'Am I in the Christianity or A&A forum?' Whaaaa???

Ghost Buster · 06-03-2014 08:37PM

Melissa Mammoth Trademark wrote: »

Really, you know this for a fact do you?

Are you currently wearing mixed fabrics?

drake25 · 06-03-2014 09:10PM

I'm not becoming a vegetarian anytime soon. I love my steak too much :P

Akrasia · 07-03-2014 09:00AM

mrsbyrne wrote: »

A lot of parents around the world consider that their child needs to be taught and led by them, the mature responsible adult. I can see that your an excellent parent and your teaching your child right from wrong, and to always treat others with courtesy and respect.
Lots of parents also think its highly suitable to teach their children to believe what they believe in spiritually and bring the children to join in any practices that go along with it. Then when the children are approaching adulthood they let them make their own minds up.
You seem to be doing this a different way " I'm supporting her through lent".

I object to segregating children according to the religion of their parents.

All schools should be open to all pupils. I also object to private schools, but that's for a different debate.

07-03-2014 10:05AM

Akrasia wrote: »

I object to segregating children according to the religion of their parents.

If you don't want your children thought religion in a catholic country then you are the one causing your child to be segregated not the school.

Despite the crap you see on here the vast majority of parents in this country want their children brought up as Catholics and want them thought about it in school. Remember its because of the church that we have such a good education in the first place.

Also contrary to what people state here, mass attendance is on the up in a big way. I see big crowds at mass on Sundays myself and see big crowds leaving other churches when I pass, I have taken a point to watch out for it because of the rubbish sprouted here. There is also a large number of young people attending mass (I'm 29 myself) contrary to what people are lead to believe about young people no longer going to mass.

anncoates · 07-03-2014 10:07AM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I had beef for lunch and pork for dinner.

Someone commented on the beef in my lunch at work, I paused momentarily trying to figure out what they were talking about and then went :rolleyes:

Police state!!!

Maximus Alexander · 07-03-2014 10:14AM

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

Despite the crap you see on here the vast majority of parents in this country want their children brought up as Catholics and want them thought about it in school. Remember its because of the church that we have such a good education in the first place.

Also contrary to what people state here, mass attendance is on the up in a big way. I see big crowds at mass on Sundays myself and see big crowds leaving other churches when I pass, I have taken a point to watch out for it because of the rubbish sprouted here. There is also a large number of young people attending mass (I'm 29 myself) contrary to what people are lead to believe about young people no longer going to mass.

As recently as 1970, mass attendance in this country was close to 100% (91% in 1973). It is a long, long way away from that now (30% in 2011). When people talk about "young people no longer going to mass" they are absolutely right.

07-03-2014 10:21AM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

As recently as 1970, mass attendance in this country was close to 100% (91% in 1973). It is a long, long way away from that now (30% in 2011). When people talk about "young people no longer going to mass" they are absolutely right.

There aren't as many going as the 70's but I'd question very much the low figures some people are sprouting as I can see the crowds and the age profile myself .

The Novena was on in Galway a few weeks ago and they had to close streets to try accommodate the crazy amount of people attending.

rainbow kirby · 07-03-2014 10:29AM

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

There aren't as many going as the 70's but I'd question very much the low figures some people are sprouting as I can see the crowds and the age profile myself

Maybe it's like that in other parts of the country, but in my mother's church (Dublin 24) there are few people younger than her there and she is in her early 50s.

Akrasia · 07-03-2014 10:48AM

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

If you don't want your children thought religion in a catholic country then you are the one causing your child to be segregated not the school.

To test this statement for fairness, lets play a thought experiment.
Lets imagine you are a christian and the only schools in your areas are Muslim schools that have a policy of integrating islamic theology throughout the education curriculum. Would you be happy to go along with this kind of regime? Would you consider it to be fair to the child?

Anyway. I'm talking mainly about a wider social policy. If all the Catholics go to catholic school, and all the protestants go to protestant school, and all the muslims go to muslim school, and all the atheists go to atheist school, all we're doing is raising a generation where people define themselves and their in-group based on what their religious belief is, and do we really want to have that kind of sectarianism in our society?

(hint, the answer is no)

Despite the crap you see on here the vast majority of parents in this country want their children brought up as Catholics and want them thought about it in school. Remember its because of the church that we have such a good education in the first place.

Regardless of what parents want, the function of a school is to educate children. If parents want their children to receive religious instruction, I'm sure the different religious institutions would be able to provide facilities to teach them outside of school hours.

I think you would find that if this was the case, the majority of parents woudn't be bothered sending their kids to sunday school and the majority of children wouldn't want to go. This is why the religious institutions are so insistent that religious indoctrination should be integrated into the school day.

Also contrary to what people state here, mass attendance is on the up in a big way. I see big crowds at mass on Sundays myself and see big crowds leaving other churches when I pass, I have taken a point to watch out for it because of the rubbish sprouted here. There is also a large number of young people attending mass (I'm 29 myself) contrary to what people are lead to believe about young people no longer going to mass.

Average Mass attendance is down significantly, the statistics are there in black and white. Some areas still have high attendances but these are isolated pockets, overall, attendances are hugely down over the last 2 generations.

I Heart Internet · 07-03-2014 10:58AM

Akrasia wrote: »

Average Mass attendance is down significantly............overall, attendances are hugely down over the last 2 generations.

This is true.

But there are well in excess of 1million people at Mass every weekend in the 26 counties alone. Comfortably in excess of 1 million on any average weekend.

Garth Brooks is the only thing that can even come close to the attendance at RCC events.

The notion spouted by some, that the RCC is disappearing and will be gone in a generation, is reidiculous wishful thinking. The RCC has taken a battering in recent years (much of it entirely justified and self-inflicted) but rumours of its demise are much exagerated.

07-03-2014 11:09AM

Akrasia wrote: »

To test this statement for fairness, lets play a thought experiment.
Lets imagine you are a christian and the only schools in your areas are Muslim schools that have a policy of integrating islamic theology throughout the education curriculum. Would you be happy to go along with this kind of regime? Would you consider it to be fair to the child?

If I was living in a Muslim country I would expect the above, hence I wouldn't live in a muslim country.

Akrasia wrote: »

Anyway. I'm talking mainly about a wider social policy. If all the Catholics go to catholic school, and all the protestants go to protestant school, and all the muslims go to muslim school, and all the atheists go to atheist school, all we're doing is raising a generation where people define themselves and their in-group based on what their religious belief is, and do we really want to have that kind of sectarianism in our society?

(hint, the answer is no)

I think that there should be separate schools for the different religions. Works fine in the UK. My cousin goes to catholic school and you wouldn't be let in the gate (as a student or teacher) unless you are a proven practicing catholic. The catholic schools are also far superiour so even catholics have to do that extra bit in the local church etc to imporve the chances of getting their children into the school as demand is so high.

Akrasia wrote: »

Regardless of what parents want, the function of a school is to educate children. If parents want their children to receive religious instruction, I'm sure the different religious institutions would be able to provide facilities to teach them outside of school hours.

The school should provide this, the schools were founded by the church and the majority of people attending are catholic therefore its should be a given that the catholic faith is taught and promoted in catholic schools.

Akrasia wrote: »

I think you would find that if this was the case, the majority of parents woudn't be bothered sending their kids to sunday school and the majority of children wouldn't want to go. This is why the religious institutions are so insistent that religious indoctrination should be integrated into the school day.

I can tell you there would be uproar among parents if schools stopped teaching religion and stopped their connection with the church, certainly in my area anyway.

Akrasia wrote: »

Average Mass attendance is down significantly, the statistics are there in black and white. Some areas still have high attendances but these are isolated pockets, overall, attendances are hugely down over the last 2 generations.

I agreed they were down, but they hit there lowest a few years ago. So contrary to what people here want to believe about less and less people attending mass etc, mass attendance is on the rise again in a big way. I can see it with my own two eyes.

Christy42 · 07-03-2014 12:32PM

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

I think that there should be separate schools for the different religions. Works fine in the UK. My cousin goes to catholic school and you wouldn't be let in the gate (as a student or teacher) unless you are a proven practicing catholic. The catholic schools are also far superiour so even catholics have to do that extra bit in the local church etc to imporve the chances of getting their children into the school as demand is so high.

The school should provide this, the schools were founded by the church and the majority of people attending are catholic therefore its should be a given that the catholic faith is taught and promoted in catholic schools.

Segregating from a young age by religion seems like it would harmful. Certainly up the north it should be stopped. A lot harder to blow someone up if they were your best friend's mum back when you were 8.

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

I can tell you there would be uproar among parents if schools stopped teaching religion and stopped their connection with the church, certainly in my area anyway.

Possibly the parents could involve themselves in their child's spiritual life rather than leaving it to the school. I see no benefit for the child in having it done at school rather than at home, as opposed to maths or English were the parent may not be strong enough in the subject to teach the child. I don't think any school should stop teaching religion, it should however be an academic subject, so exams and teaching about the broad spectrum of religions in the world. School should be about broadening a child's horizon past the occasionally blinkered view they get at home, not reinforcing it.

Ghost Buster · 07-03-2014 01:02PM

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

If you don't want your children thought religion in a catholic country then you are the one causing your child to be segregated not the school.

Despite the crap you see on here the vast majority of parents in this country want their children brought up as Catholics and want them thought about it in school. Remember its because of the church that we have such a good education in the first place.

Also contrary to what people state here, mass attendance is on the up in a big way. I see big crowds at mass on Sundays myself and see big crowds leaving other churches when I pass, I have taken a point to watch out for it because of the rubbish sprouted here. There is also a large number of young people attending mass (I'm 29 myself) contrary to what people are lead to believe about young people no longer going to mass.

IT IS NOT A CATHOLIC COUNTRY
I'll say it again.......
IT IS NOT A CATHOLIC COUNTRY.
It is a secular republic.
Saudi Arabia is an Islamic country
Ireland is a secular country with lots of catholics.
Will this ever sink in?

07-03-2014 01:05PM

Christy42 wrote: »

Segregating from a young age by religion seems like it would harmful. Certainly up the north it should be stopped. A lot harder to blow someone up if they were your best friend's mum back when you were 8.

Well its already happening here. Educate together schools are basically setup mostly for atheists.

I can't see school in general losing their catholic ethos anytime soon, so people either have to but up with it or use/start alternatives.

By the way I'm not saying the schools should not allow non-catholic students, but if they attend a catholic school then the parents need to understand they will receive catholic teaching and ethos.

Ghost Buster wrote: »

IT IS NOT A CATHOLIC COUNTRY
I'll say it again.......
IT IS NOT A CATHOLIC COUNTRY.
It is a secular republic.
Saudi Arabia is an Islamic country
Ireland is a secular country with lots of catholics.
Will this ever sink in?

You are wrong of course. Think what you want but Ireland is a Catholic country.

I Heart Internet · 07-03-2014 01:09PM

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

You are wrong of course. Think what you want but Ireland is a Catholic country.

It's not.

Ghost Buster · 07-03-2014 01:10PM

Jeremias Tender Cheese wrote: »

Well its already happening here. Educate together schools are basically setup mostly for atheists.

I can't see school in general losing their catholic ethos anytime soon, so people either have to but up with it or use/start alternatives.

By the way I'm not saying the schools should not allow non-catholic students, but if they attend a catholic school then the parents need to understand they will receive catholic teaching and ethos.

Schools are for education and the only reason The RCC want to keep superstition in them is because they know very well that if the teaching of same is left to the wishy washy spirituality of the parents The Church will be all but dead in a single generation.

Will you eat meat tomorrow

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