Anyone feed Urea to cows?

sheebadog · 05-03-2014 06:49AM #1

When milking cows are indoors I feed some Urea. I always did that but talking to a group of farmers that called yesterday they thought I was mad.

trixi2011 · 05-03-2014 06:56AM

sheebadog wrote: »

When milking cows are indoors I feed some Urea. I always did that but talking to a group of farmers that called yesterday they thought I was mad.

Have herd of people doing never feed it myself . Spread urea on front of the cows in the grazing season I'm sure they end up eating a little .

sheebadog · 05-03-2014 06:59AM

trixi2011 wrote: »

Have herd of people doing never feed it myself . Spread urea on front of the cows in the grazing season I'm sure they end up eating a little .

I would never feed it on grazing as they should have adequate protein.

J.O. Farmer · 05-03-2014 08:59AM

sheebadog wrote: »

I would never feed it on grazing as they should have adequate protein.

Is urea not a byproduct from the breakdown of protein anda waste product at that excreted in the urine. If you wanted to give extra protein surely there are better sources.

sheebadog · 05-03-2014 09:03AM

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Is urea not a byproduct from the breakdown of protein anda waste product at that excreted in the urine. If you wanted to give extra protein surely there are better sources.

Yes a byproduct. I feed between 50 and 75 grams per head so not to waste some of their protein intake.

J.O. Farmer · 05-03-2014 09:11AM

sheebadog wrote: »

Yes a byproduct. I feed between 50 and 75 grams per head so not to waste some of their protein intake.

How does that help save their protein intake. Protein has to be broken down by the cow to be used in production of their own protein. For example soya protein can't be taken in by the cow and pass straight through the system into milk.

sheebadog · 05-03-2014 09:19AM

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

How does that help save their protein intake. Protein has to be broken down by the cow to be used in production of their own protein. For example soya protein can't be taken in by the cow and pass straight through the system into milk.

My thinking is that the urea is already made as it were when you feed a little urea. Then you get full bang from soya.
Crazy??

Brown Podzol · 05-03-2014 09:39AM

sheebadog wrote: »

When milking cows are indoors I feed some Urea. I always did that but talking to a group of farmers that called yesterday they thought I was mad.

Is that feed grade urea? . What price is it compared to soya. I have herd of some people feeding ordinary urea fert to cattle through a diet feeder, but if caught then there could be serious repercussions.

ganmo · 05-03-2014 12:49PM

Keep it at small levels and it'll be grand. It should be cheaper than considerably cheaper than Soya.

Gillespy · 05-03-2014 01:35PM

I remember giving it a few years ago at 50g/head. It wasn't feed grade and was warned to make sure it was thoroughly mixed through before feeding out. Unusual to be looking for ruman degradable protein, I forget why we needed it that time.

conor t · 05-03-2014 02:55PM

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

How does that help save their protein intake. Protein has to be broken down by the cow to be used in production of their own protein. For example soya protein can't be taken in by the cow and pass straight through the system into milk.

urea is broken down into ammonia, then used by bacteria and turned into protein as long as energy is adequate. if their on silage not much point in feeding urea because energy will be lacking.

Farmer Pudsey · 05-03-2014 03:09PM

Granular Urea that we spread as fertlizer is feed grade urea. It is ultra high protein a good bit above 100 units/kg(soya is 48 units). The biggest issue is that even feeding small amounts meas that you are giving adequate P. Piosining is a real danger however the cost benifit is very tempting.

It is quite common in the states to do it, not quite sure to what level you can feed to. Soya by far is the premium source of P but cost of P is a real issue. Have considered feeding to reduce costs however have not so far. 50-100 grams would not be a huge amount and well within limits. It would be tempting where feeding a set ration to use ureal to balance P for stores/weanlings.

Brown Podzol · 05-03-2014 06:15PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Granular Urea that we spread as fertlizer is feed grade urea. It is ultra high protein a good bit above 100 units/kg(soya is 48 units). The biggest issue is that even feeding small amounts meas that you are giving adequate P. Piosining is a real danger however the cost benifit is very tempting.

It is quite common in the states to do it, not quite sure to what level you can feed to. Soya by far is the premium source of P but cost of P is a real issue. Have considered feeding to reduce costs however have not so far. 50-100 grams would not be a huge amount and well within limits. It would be tempting where feeding a set ration to use ureal to balance P for stores/weanlings.

There'd feed anything in the States. Have a look at the list of feeds on the right of the page of the following link. Feathers, lamb meal, blood meal etc.

http://www.ingredients101.com/lamb.htm

trixi2011 · 05-03-2014 10:52PM

sheebadog wrote: »

I would never feed it on grazing as they should have adequate protein.

Spread for grass growth as fertiliser what I mean is I'm sure the cows would end up eating some

Farmer Pudsey · 05-03-2014 10:56PM

Brown Podzol wrote: »

There'd feed anything in the States. Have a look at the list of feeds on the right of the page of the following link. Feathers, lamb meal, blood meal etc.

http://www.ingredients101.com/lamb.htm

Urea is also used in treating grains to preserve and to increase P. It is also used accross europe. When soya went crazy last year it was being used a bit. The thing about it you need to be very aware of risks involved mainly that no animal has access to more than there share.

gozunda · 06-03-2014 01:26AM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Urea is also used in treating grains to preserve and to increase P. It is also used accross europe. When soya went crazy last year it was being used a bit. The thing about it you need to be very aware of risks involved mainly that no animal has access to more than there share.

I agree

This is from an US source on feeding urea to cattle...

"Urea is quickly converted to ammonia upon entering the rumen. This ammonia can either be used by bacteria along with a readily available energy source to produce proteins or enter the bloodstream.

If energy sources are limited in the rumen or if too much urea is consumed, then large amounts of urea can enter the circulatory system. When the amount of urea entering the bloodstream exceeds the capacity of the liver to remove it, cattle can suffer from ammonia toxicity or urea poisoning with death resulting in less than 30 minutes.

Prevention of urea toxicity is always better than having to treat the condition. Instances of urea poisoning are commonly due to improper weighing or poor mixing of urea into cattle feeds. Overconsumption of liquid or solid molasses-based supplements containing urea by hungry cattle can also lead to urea toxicity. ...

Never feed raw whole soybeans and urea together. Soybeans contain an enzyme called urease which breaks down urea into ammonia

Signs of toxicity include excessive salivation, rapid breathing, tremors, tetany and eventually death. "

As far as I am concerned I would not feed cows urea, it's a cheap but potentially dangerous way of attempting to bulk up protein levels. In 2008 Chinese milk producers were found using melamine added to milk to cause it to appear to have a higher protein content.

It was reported an estimated 300,000 people developed complications with six infants dying from kidney stones and other kidney damage. The chemical appeared to have been added to milk to cause it to appear to have a higher protein content.

Whilst the Chinese example was of fake protein added to milk, I would be just as warey of using a byproduct as a feedstuff for cows. Ignoring the potential for toxicity - there are some serious concerns for food safety as well in my opinion.

blue5000 · 06-03-2014 10:28AM

Some of the crimp additives available last autumn are using urea to bring up protein levels in the cereal from 10-11 to around 16% I'd be interested in doing this. Did anyone on here try it?

ganmo · 06-03-2014 11:50AM

Don't feed urea to young stock though, they can't handle it

sheebadog · 06-03-2014 07:04PM

Brown Podzol wrote: »

Is that feed grade urea? . What price is it compared to soya. I have herd of some people feeding ordinary urea fert to cattle through a diet feeder, but if caught then there could be serious repercussions.

I just feed prilled urea straight from the bag into the diet feeder. I'm not supposed to use this type but the food grade is almost €1000 per ton.
I would never use it on young stock though.

conor t · 06-03-2014 07:11PM

gozunda wrote: »

As far as I am concerned I would not feed cows urea, it's a cheap but potentially dangerous way of attempting to bulk up protein levels. In 2008 Chinese milk producers were found using melamine added to milk to cause it to appear to have a higher protein content.

It was reported an estimated 300,000 people developed complications with six infants dying from kidney stones and other kidney damage. The chemical appeared to have been added to milk to cause it to appear to have a higher protein content.

Whilst the Chinese example was of fake protein added to milk, I would be just as warey of using a byproduct as a feedstuff for cows. Ignoring the potential for toxicity - there are some serious concerns for food safety as well in my opinion.

Melamine being added to milk to boost protein levels has nothing to do with feeding urea.
As long as you have the facilities to mix it properly urea is perfectly safe and there wouldn't be any difference in the end product compared to soya, except for the cost of production. To say otherwise shows no knowledge of what happens during digestion in the rumen.

gozunda · 06-03-2014 07:22PM

conor t wrote: »

Melamine being added to milk to boost protein levels has nothing to do with feeding urea.
As long as you have the facilities to mix it properly urea is perfectly safe and there wouldn't be any difference in the end product compared to soya, except for the cost of production. To say otherwise shows no knowledge of what happens during digestion in the rumen.

If you read what I wrote I made it perfectly clear I was not giving it as a comparison. My point was that using non food derivatives can cause unintended consequences both in animal and human consumers.

Soya can not be equated with urea and as quoted from the article detail I posted may cause issues when fed together. Please reread my original post if you did not understand this. The detail what can happen in the rumen is clearly detailed.

conor t · 06-03-2014 07:48PM

gozunda wrote: »

If you read what I wrote I made it perfectly clear I was not giving it as a comparison. My point was that using non food derivatives can cause unintended consequences both in animal and human consumers.

Soya can not be equated with urea and as quoted from the article detail I posted may cause issues when fed together. Please reread my original post if you did not understand this. The detail what can happen in the rumen is clearly detailed.

The melamine in China wasn't fed to the cows, it was mixed into the milk so don't see how your point is relevant in this thread, if your talking about bone meal or some other by products your right, but there's no risks when urea is fed right

gozunda · 06-03-2014 08:31PM

conor t wrote: »

The melamine in China wasn't fed to the cows, it was mixed into the milk so don't see how your point is relevant in this thread, if your talking about bone meal or some other by products your right, but there's no risks when urea is fed right

Where did I say melamine was fed to cows?????

As I said It is another example of the use of non food derivatives which can cause unintended consequences both in animal and human consumers.

The point is that "feeding right' is a variable that is at best very difficult to determine. The information I quoted detailed serious issues of interactions with other foodstuffs and feeding quantities. Urea is not a natural foodstuff and carries potential risks of poisoning and death. I suggest you reread the original post again.

I will repost the last paragraph for clarity

"Whilst the Chinese example was of fake protein added to milk, I would be just as warey of using a byproduct as a feedstuff for cows. Ignoring the potential for toxicity - there are some serious concerns for food safety as well in my opinion"

conor t · 06-03-2014 09:08PM

gozunda wrote: »

Where did I say melamine was fed to cows?????

As I said It is another example of the use of non food derivatives which can cause unintended consequences both in animal and human consumers.

The point is that "feeding right' is a variable that is at best very difficult to determine. The information I quoted detailed serious issues of interactions with other foodstuffs and feeding quantities. Urea is not a natural foodstuff and carries potential risks of poisoning and death. I suggest you reread the original post again.

I will repost the last paragraph for clarity

"Whilst the Chinese example was of fake protein added to milk, I would be just as warey of using a byproduct as a feedstuff for cows. Ignoring the potential for toxicity - there are some serious concerns for food safety as well in my opinion"

The lads in China were just out to make money and couldn't have given a ****e about whoever drank the milk, that's not what's happening feeding urea to cattle. Feeding soya with urea would defeat the whole point of using urea in the first place and balancing a diet properly isn't hard at all if you do a bit of research. What exactly are these 'food safety concerns' you have because you hardly think it would be legal and widely practiced if there were 'serious food safety concerns'.

Gillespy · 06-03-2014 09:18PM

The high protein molasses on the market, QLF and Premier Molasses have them, are urea based I believe. So let's assume they're above board, it's no different to putting 50g through the feeder.

It's not a total substitute for soya, still need bypass protein well high performing cows do.

Farmer Pudsey · 06-03-2014 09:28PM

Gillespy wrote: »

The high protein molasses on the market, QLF and Premier Molasses have them, are urea based I believe. So let's assume they're above board, it's no different to putting 50g through the feeder.

It's not a total substitute for soya, still need bypass protein well high performing cows do.

Hi protein molasses were using whey as far as i know unless they changed in the last while

Gillespy · 06-03-2014 09:45PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Hi protein molasses were using whey as far as i know unless they changed in the last while

Some do, it appears Premier Molasses range is whey based. QLF is urea iirc.

Here's one in the UK.

gozunda · 07-03-2014 01:07PM

conor t wrote: »

The lads in China were just out to make money and couldn't have given a ****e about whoever drank the milk, that's not what's happening feeding urea to cattle. Feeding soya with urea would defeat the whole point of using urea in the first place and balancing a diet properly isn't hard at all if you do a bit of research. What exactly are these 'food safety concerns' you have because you hardly think it would be legal and widely practiced if there were 'serious food safety concerns'.

You didn't answer the question in my last post. By the way it wasn't me either who first brought up the issue of soya. Although Soya is present in nearly all compound feeds these days. Yeah the lads in China were out to make money but nearly every one is the same. The problem with feeding - urea which in physiology is defined as a waste product. Increased feeding of urea can lead to elevated levels of urea in both milk and meat. As for the health concerns like the feeding of animal waste products in the past - there was little research done until serious issues arose. We already know that it can be toxic in certain circumstances when fed to animals. Elevated levels of urea in cows / cattle can pass into both milk and meat.
And it's not that it's 'legal' there is no statement in law about this one way or the other. It wasn't 'illegal' in China either to add melamine but it happened anyway. We need to learn from lessons of the past about what we feed to animals. The way I look the quality and reputation of the product suffers. Is irish farming not famed and promoted for its grass fed image?

Gillespy · 07-03-2014 05:00PM

Blowing this way out of proportion. It's grams of urea and it's done in cases where that kind of protein is called for. The only danger is when it's poorly mixed through the ration and that is hard to do quite frankly if the farmer is awake. It's scaremongering like this that threadens to destroy our 'green image'.

gozunda · 07-03-2014 06:14PM

Gillespy wrote: »

Blowing this way out of proportion. It's grams of urea and it's done in cases where that kind of protein is called for. The only danger is when it's poorly mixed through the ration and that is hard to do quite frankly if the farmer is awake. It's scaremongering like this that threadens to destroy our 'green image'.

Thanks for that. However I disagree. Urea is used to provide an cheap source of nitrogen from which rumen bacteria can form protein. There are many factors that make urea toxicity possible. Some of these have already been stated and include:

1) Poor mixing of feed

2) Errors in ration formulation

3) Inadequate period of adaptation

4) Low intake of water

5) Feeding of urea in conjunction with poor-quality roughages

6) Low feed intake prior to exposure to feed containing urea

7) Rations that promote a high pH in ruminal fluid

I would suggest you consider more than the somolitic state of farmers as a problem. You do realise that the bizarre statement above that any one who highlights recognised concerns is by your reckoning 'scaremongering' and is somehow the cause of the problem - a great example of a strawman argument ie a complete misrepresentation of what was actually said.

Gillespy · 07-03-2014 06:40PM

Any other everyday feeds cause similar problems if misused or overfed?

Anyone feed Urea to cows?

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