A message to wannabe teachers - Stay away from teaching.

itsaposter · 05-03-2014 03:02PM

I pay for my own pension. . .10-12% of a salary deducted over 40 years . . . What do you think that comes to?

Well I pay 20% myself and according to the optimistic pension company that looks like coming to around about 50%. Non indexed to pay or inflation or anything or course, and no lump sum.

So 10-12% would get you to about 25% of salary I'd guess. Around 15% if there was any form of indexing involved.

munchkin_utd · 05-03-2014 03:10PM

it was mentioned recently that a public service employee retiring on 70k a year would have a pension that is the equivalent of what a normal mortal would need a €1million pot at time of retirement to have the same.

You'd have to be putting in a lot more than 10% of your salary to get that class of a cushy retirement bonus !
(and even then your pot is subject to stock market crashes and whatnot, so even the best of planning and crazily high payments doesnt guarantee you shag all of a private pension at the end of it)

evolving_doors · 05-03-2014 03:18PM

marienbad wrote: »

When the stats don't suit get another set eh?

You quoted an education budget and inferred that that percentage on salaries was ALL taken up with teachers pay. The response was not get different stats.. but break down the same stats to help you understand . If you don't accept this breakdown then by all means challenge it.

evolving_doors · 05-03-2014 03:26PM

munchkin_utd wrote: »

it was mentioned recently that a public service employee retiring on 70k a year would have a pension that is the equivalent of what a normal mortal would need a €1million pot at time of retirement to have the same.

You'd have to be putting in a lot more than 10% of your salary to get that class of a cushy retirement bonus !
(and even then your pot is subject to stock market crashes and whatnot, so even the best of planning and crazily high payments doesnt guarantee you shag all of a private pension at the end of it)

And what has that got to do with new entrants! Read the thread title again.. you might as well be talking about the Ming dynasty..

whiteandlight · 05-03-2014 03:50PM

itsaposter wrote: »

It's natural that most of any country's education budget gets taken up in salaries, that is and will always be the main expense. There's no need to defend a high percentage, a low percentage on the other hand seems plucked out of the air to aid an argument.

There seems to be no shortage of applicants for teaching posts (I assume the quality of these is the same as ever - mixed), therefore there seems to be no indication that the genuinely sharp reduction in starting salaries is currently a significant problem.

New teachers are assuming that over time they'll win back some or all of the cuts, a calculated risk. However it'd really help their case if there was a shortage of applicants, so it's not unusual to see propaganda to help that along.

Many of the problems with Irish 2nd level education come down to the school calendar, long hours, long weeks, short year. Lengthen the year and you'll see everything else ease up.

Is there one Irish teacher who'd swap a few weeks of holidays for a more comfortable work week and a better education system, probably not.

In a heartbeat. We teach teach one of the highest class contact times in the OECD. I would gladly give up a month of the holidays if it meant a reduction of our weekly work load. However realistically that's never gonna happen. The government would take complete advantage and wouldn't reduce the hours yearly at all! (I base this prediction on the underhanded cuts to education, additional meeting hours, correcting our own students state exams, guidance counsellors etc)

itsaposter · 05-03-2014 04:01PM

In a heartbeat. We teach teach one of the highest class contact times in the OECD. I would gladly give up a month of the holidays if it meant a reduction of our weekly work load. However realistically that's never gonna happen. The government would take complete advantage and wouldn't reduce the hours yearly at all! (I base this prediction on the underhanded cuts to education, additional meeting hours, correcting our own students state exams, guidance counsellors etc)

The only point of increasing the school year would be to decrease the school week.

Everyone wants the students to be taught as well as possible, long school weeks are bad for students, and they're bad for dedicated teachers.

But if some teachers would support it like you suggest that is brilliant. It's time to get the unions on board, a simple swap less teaching hours per week, maybe a month's less holidays. The whole country for once would be behind the teacher unions.

marienbad · 05-03-2014 04:38PM

Armelodie wrote: »

You quoted an education budget and inferred that that percentage on salaries was ALL taken up with teachers pay. The response was not get different stats.. but break down the same stats to help you understand . If you don't accept this breakdown then by all means challenge it.

No I didn't infer anything - it is stated flat out.

News : Global Economy Last Updated: Sep 14, 2011 - 7:05 AM
Education at a Glance 2011: OECD says 71% of Irish spending absorbed by pay compared with 63% average

And no matter how you slice it we are still higher than our neighbours , as it is with virtually every public sector job from the Taoiseach on down.

No wonder our European partners look on us with scepticism when we look for more assistance when at every meeting at every level in every discipline the highest paid people in the room are always the Irish !

As they see it their taxpayers are helping fund this anomaly.

whiteandlight · 05-03-2014 04:47PM

marienbad wrote: »

No I didn't infer anything - it is stated flat out.

News : Global Economy Last Updated: Sep 14, 2011 - 7:05 AM
Education at a Glance 2011: OECD says 71% of Irish spending absorbed by pay compared with 63% average

And no matter how you slice it we are still higher than our neighbours , as it is with virtually every public sector job from the Taoiseach on down.

No wonder our European partners look on us with scepticism when we look for more assistance when at every meeting at every level in every discipline the highest paid people in the room are always the Irish !

As they see it their taxpayers are helping fund this anomaly.

Except that we are one of the few countries who offer 'free third level education' ie the salaries for these come out of our education budget unlike the others. Of course we are higher on the pay end, we're funding a whole extra tier of education and a very expensive one salary wise!

marienbad · 05-03-2014 05:03PM

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Except that we are one of the few countries who offer 'free third level education' ie the salaries for these come out of our education budget unlike the others. Of course we are higher on the pay end, we're funding a whole extra tier of education and a very expensive one salary wise!

Not so-

http://www.mastersportal.eu/articles/405/tuition-fees-at-universities-in-europe-overview-and-comparison.html

itsaposter · 05-03-2014 05:19PM

marienbad wrote: »

Not so-

http://www.mastersportal.eu/articles/405/tuition-fees-at-universities-in-europe-overview-and-comparison.html

Another point is our pre-primary spending is very low relative to advanced countries which also distorts things. I believe to boost it up for accounting purposes the DofEd calls 4 year olds in primary education, pre-primary spending.

evolving_doors · 05-03-2014 07:53PM

marienbad wrote: »

No I didn't infer anything - it is stated flat out.

News : Global Economy Last Updated: Sep 14, 2011 - 7:05 AM
Education at a Glance 2011: OECD says 71% of Irish spending absorbed by pay compared with 63% average

And no matter how you slice it we are still higher than our neighbours , as it is with virtually every public sector job from the Taoiseach on down.

No wonder our European partners look on us with scepticism when we look for more assistance when at every meeting at every level in every discipline the highest paid people in the room are always the Irish !

As they see it their taxpayers are helping fund this anomaly.

Sooo...as per the thread title, you would recommend that becoming a teacher is a good career move?

Pwpane · 05-03-2014 08:35PM

marienbad wrote: »

And I ask you - is there a two tier system now operating in Irish education ?
If the answer is yes then there is your answer.

Have you no concept of cause and effect??

Really??

Are you wearing something blue at the moment? Is it raining? Well, now we have our answer. Your blue jeans are causing the rain....

whiteandlight · 05-03-2014 08:52PM

Right I take that back then, that was perception on what I was told. A bit more research into the figures spent has resulted in a new thread.

Might I suggest that we have got completely sidetracked into spending/salaries which was not the original purpose of the thread.

ledgebag1 · 05-03-2014 09:02PM

Yes let's discuss how we can improve things for future teachers?

gaeilgebeo · 05-03-2014 09:08PM

Armelodie wrote: »

you might as well be talking about the Ming dynasty..

:D:D

itsaposter · 05-03-2014 09:52PM

ledgebag1 wrote: »

Yes let's discuss how we can improve things for future teachers?

Well as suggested previously and supported to some extent by Musicmental85, lenghten the school year, shorten the number of teaching hours per week.

Excellent for teachers, no more need to work late in the evenings marking etc., more time automatically appears in the week for their non-classroom work. Less pressure, less stress. And as any teacher will tell you they didn't join for the holidays.

Great for students (though they'll not be too happy initially) no big gap in summer for them to lose momentum, less to go through in a week, more time to get through the more complicated concepts that currently many students rely on extra grinds to learn. Much fairer to less well off students (most important factor to my mind - it's a disgrace how much of a leg up the better off can get in the Irish system).

Parents happy - well maybe not the wealthier ones.

Government happy as longer terms are a more efficient use of teaching talent.

Peter Flynt · 05-03-2014 09:56PM

itsaposter wrote: »

Well as suggested previously and supported to some extent by Musicmental85, lenghten the school year, shorten the number of teaching hours per week.

Excellent for teachers, no more need to work late in the evenings marking etc., more time automatically appears in the week for their non-classroom work. Less pressure, less stress. And as any teacher will tell you they didn't join for the holidays.

Great for students (though they'll not be too happy initially) no big gap in summer for them to lose momentum, less to go through in a week, more time to get through the more complicated concepts that currently many students rely on extra grinds to learn. Much fairer to less well off students (most important factor to my mind - it's a disgrace how much of a leg up the better off can get in the Irish system).

Parents happy - well maybe not the wealthier ones.

Government happy as longer terms are a more efficient use of teaching talent.

I wouldn't have a problem with extending the school year on the basis on which you describe.

I don't think that will happen.

Firstly - the state exams must take place in June and marked in June/July. there really isn't time available to push them out further. If they extend the school year they won't be able to find supervisors for the exams and many teachers will refuse to mark in July.

Secondly - If the school year is extended (let's face it . . it already has been by the equivalent of four weeks for teachers) it is more than likely to go down the route of CPD in June.

ledgebag1 · 05-03-2014 10:07PM

Okay so explain CPD if you would?

Surely if the year is extended then the exam dates could be extended I can't imagine this would have a massive impact on colleges?

This progressive attitude by existing teachers would this not be advantageous for union/ government negotiation

whiteandlight · 05-03-2014 10:14PM

Sorry I tried to respond on my phone earlier but I lost my response and then got sidetracked!

The above does apply however

The government will not be happy. It will cost them far more to have the schools open for another month, particularly if they don't increase the hours that we teach, ie it would require more teachers which they have been cutting.

I will say that a reduction of 2 hours in teaching a week will alleviate the problem, not eliminate it as it is increasingly difficult to get a permanent job and there are many threads about the expectations of part time teachers-in essence its likely teachers would end up co-erced into even more extra curricular. However it would go a long way to helping the situation.

Here's what I would like (but its all pie in the sky!)

1. An immediate improvement in the contract hours being offered at 2nd level in particular.
This is doing huge damage to students as teachers have to try and improve on their 3 hour contracts by moving schools. I have taught classes who have had 5+ teachers within 2-3 years, this is crazy. Schools should be required to have as many full time teachers as possible as things were in the past.
2. A reverse of the cuts to support for SEN students.
This is having a huge impact on the progress of all students. SEN students need more support than a classroom of 30+ students allows them, they demand more attention and there is simply a limit on how much a teacher can achieve. It is simply impossible to cater to a classroom that likely has general learning disabilities, Aspergers, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia etc. These students need the support, the government is doing them a complete dis-service.
3. A reduction in the number of hours taught to be more in line with the OECD average and the new reduced salary scales.
This would be a huge benefit to students as more, better prep can be done. Corrections become a little bit faster etc.
4. A roll back on the new JC
This proposed assessment has not worked in other countries, particularly in our nearest neighbours. It would be wonderful IF our education system was properly funded and supported. This new course is not prepared, syllabi (sorry specification) are not written and worst of all it includes assessment by your own teacher. In other words, in 6 years of education the ONLY time you would be assessed by an independent, accountable body is in your final exam. This is crazy. We are a nation of back scratchers, the country is too small and it will not work. The only way I could see this working would be for the SEC to continue to administrate the exam, all papers to be sent in centrally as normal and then anonymously sent back to schools to the equivalent amount of students. It keeps the administration costs but reduces the correctors costs.
5. An acknowledgement of CPD as part of the croke park hours
This is already in place in some schools, you do x amount of hours of professional development on your own time and you are compensated by x hours instead of meetings.
6. An acknowledgement of the time taken to plan classes built into our contract.
I would actually be willing to do an 830-430 day in the school building if necessary. It still wouldn't come close to the time required.
7. A survey and acknowledgement of extra curricular activity.
There is an enormous amount of free extra curricular activites done up and down the country. This needs to be recorded and in some cases a cap placed on the amount of extra curricular any one teacher can be involved in (where possible) might be advisable to avoid overwork. At least a pro rata acknowledgement, its mad to have teachers getting paid for less hours than they are giving in extra curricular for example!
8. In return for a reduction in the number of hours taught per week and ABSOLUTELY no increase in the yearly hours taught/supervised I would be willing to work in June.

Peter Flynt · 05-03-2014 10:26PM

ledgebag1 wrote: »

Okay so explain CPD if you would?

Surely if the year is extended then the exam dates could be extended I can't imagine this would have a massive impact on colleges?

This progressive attitude by existing teachers would this not be advantageous for union/ government negotiation

The Leaving Certificate is very much an international exam. There's a reason why the results always come out a day early than the A-Level results in the United Kingdom - so they get the results of Irish students who are applying to UK colleges via the UCAS system.

The school year basically starts in and around 22-25 August for teachers. The LC results usually come out a week before. . .So there's no chance of that date being changed.

There's no possibility as far as I can see of having the Leaving Certificate examinations in July. There would be too little time to mark the examinations. I've marked for the State Examinations Commission - It takes up all of July (including Saturdays/Sundays) and it is an extremely tight disciplined ship they run. Very impressive to be honest.

It's nothing to do with teachers quite frankly.

ledgebag1 · 05-03-2014 10:30PM

Fair enough as I say just trying to understand it all

itsaposter · 05-03-2014 10:46PM

The government would be happy, the cost of keeping schools open for say 3-4 more weeks will be very small especially in summer. Full time salaries are paid anyway and they'll make up the bulk of the cost.

I'd guess the exams could be sorted out, other countries somehow manage without a very long summer break.

A long work week is inefficient, it's inevitable that it creates timetabling and substitution problems. Doing the same work in less days is inevitably more expensive, doesn't really matter what it is - well it is when it's full time teachers who're paid for holidays.

Admittedly some would see this as bad news as once you fix the inefficiencies there would be less need for subbing type work - but I think most agree that's not an ideal situation anyway.

However the longer work year also would make it less tempting for a school or the government to hire non full time staff. Right now I'd assume they're finding ways to hire people only for term time?

whiteandlight · 05-03-2014 10:55PM

itsaposter wrote: »

The government would be happy, the cost of keeping schools open for say 3-4 more weeks will be very small especially in summer. Full time salaries are paid anyway and they'll make up the bulk of the cost.

However the longer work year also would make it less tempting for a school or the government to hire non full time staff. Right now I'd assume they're finding ways to hire people only for term time?

With the budget cuts they will not want anything that will increase costs I'm afraid.

If you are hired after Nov 1st you only get paid for term time. However this isn't the major issue, the major issue is the offering of contracts that are anything from 10-40% of a full contract and having multiple teachers for the cost of 1. It suits the schools, more talent, extra curricular and easier timetabling but seriously detrimental to teachers motivation, pay and pension.

Inspector Coptoor · 05-03-2014 10:57PM

Can we get one thing straight here.
For the last time.

We don't "get paid for holidays".
We get paid a wage for doing 167 days work or 751 hours of class contact time.

That money is then spread out over 26 fortnightly pay packets instead of 19, ultimately saving the government money.

Re: the school year:
While I am coping well with the demands of the job at present (full timetable & exam classes in a practical subject), I'm relatively young & don't have kids so I can spread myself around a bit.

Today I did 5 hours of CPD after school across two different courses, I just got home there at 21:00 after being up at 06:15.

You couldn't be at that with kids etc.

I'd want extra pay to work June, less contact time or no sept-may.
It's extra work no matter what way you look at it.
The class contact time would stay the same but the number of days would increase to 187.
No thanks

evolving_doors · 05-03-2014 10:58PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The Leaving Certificate is very much an international exam. There's a reason why the results always come out a day early than the A-Level results in the United Kingdom - so they get the results of Irish students who are applying to UK colleges via the UCAS system.

The school year basically starts in and around 22-25 August for teachers. The LC results usually come out a week before. . .So there's no chance of that date being changed.

There's no possibility as far as I can see of having the Leaving Certificate examinations in July. There would be too little time to mark the examinations.I've marked for the State Examinations Commission - It takes up all of July (including Saturdays/Sundays) and it is an extremely tight disciplined ship they run. Very impressive to be honest.

It's nothing to do with teachers quite frankly.

I'd agree that its a tight operation alright...
How about.... instead of say 400 papers for 25 correctors for 1 month.. Try 200 papers for 50 correctors for 2 weeks. Given that the JC corrections will be done in house also it could make more correctors available... Dare I say hand some more work to retirees to ensure the experience weighting is strong...

Peter Flynt · 05-03-2014 11:00PM

Armelodie wrote: »

I'd agree that its a tight operation alright...
How about.... instead of say 400 papers for 25 correctors for 1 month.. Try 200 papers for 50 correctors for 2 weeks. Given that the JC corrections will be done in house also it could make more correctors available... Dare I say hand some more work to retirees to ensure the experience weighting is strong...

The more correctors the greater the margin of error increases.

To get a job marking LC Higher Level exams you have to have quite extensive experience.

The SEC don't want inexperienced teachers/markers marking examinations just to please the muppets out there with their "dey should be bleedin mark de exams for free"

Inspector Coptoor · 05-03-2014 11:00PM

Standards would drop, you get better at correcting the more you do.

More correctors = more conference & mileage expenses to pick up papers.

Would end up costing way more.
Non runner

whiteandlight · 05-03-2014 11:01PM

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Can we get one thing straight here.
For the last time.

We don't "get paid for holidays".
We get paid a wage for doing 167 days work or 751 hours of class contact time.

That money is then spread out over 26 fortnightly pay packets instead of 19, ultimately saving the government money.

Re: the school year:
While I am coping well with the demands of the job at present (full timetable & exam classes in a practical subject), I'm relatively young & don't have kids so I can spread myself around a bit.

Today I did 5 hours of CPD after school across two different courses, I just got home there at 21:00 after being up at 06:15.

You couldn't be at that with kids etc.

I'd want extra pay to work June, less contact time or no sept-may.
It's extra work no matter what way you look at it.
The class contact time would stay the same but the number of days would increase to 187.
No thanks

This would be my concern with June. I just could not trust the government not to take the p*ss completely

itsaposter · 05-03-2014 11:24PM

Musicmental85 wrote: »

With the budget cuts they will not want anything that will increase costs I'm afraid.

A longer school year saves them money. They can spread out the teachers workload more easily. They won't need to hire staff to plug timetable holes caused by the longer weekly teaching hours required by the Irish system.

I know this is counter intuitive, but a longer school year is a major cost saver, dwarfing any costs involved in keeping a building open.

I'm puzzled that there seems to be resistance to a sensible proposal, we go to a modern EU term model and the big winners are the teachers and pupils.

evolving_doors · 05-03-2014 11:28PM

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The more correctors the greater the margin of error increases.

To get a job marking LC Higher Level exams you have to have quite extensive experience.

The SEC don't want inexperienced teachers/markers marking examinations just to please the muppets out there with their "dey should be bleedin mark de exams for free"

Yes i can appreciate there might be a better consistency with fewer correctors.{although you could argue it just means that a bad corrector is more equally unfair than 2 varying correctors}..I still think that there is a large enough cohort of experienced correctors and teachers out there though.

Personally I think the error rate is also down to the pressure and speed required. Also a lot of dickying around takes place after the marking conference when the correctors understand that things are all set untill a phone call comes in to change... Maybe get that sorted out and 'loosen up the bell curve'.

A message to wannabe teachers - Stay away from teaching.

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