Prime Time

davidlacey · 27-02-2014 10:59PM #1

Did anyone catch the report on IE on primetime on the back of worker rejecting the pay cuts today? Not much learned as always Barry kenny with usual blabber which is indicative with IE. Leo varadkar says the enterprise is due to be upgraded and cork trains under 2 hours is achievable. WRC was focused on as always with a figure of 8 passengers per train picked from the sky. Usual talk but no action. Whats everyone's view ?

end of the road · 28-02-2014 03:38AM

well Leo varadkar is the man who apparently wants to be irelands boris johnson so i wouldn't be bothering with anything he has to say to be honest, he seems to think that making all the rail network "high speed" and not stopping at all towns on route is the only way to make railways competitive with the roads, so a good quality product wouldn't attract people to the service leo? everybody knows roads got way more then the railway, yeah whatever, but if the railway got a huge investment program like it should have then maybe just maybe it would be "value for money" or something near it. well at least he realizes that ennis athenry is now built and has to be made to work, shame that thought never crossed the relevant peoples minds about rosslare waterford or the on the verge of closure lines that are limerick to waterford and limmerick ballybroaphy, but i suppose thats CIE and politics for you, did he say cork to dublin in 2 hours was achievable? i must admit i spent most of the time ranting at the TV so probably missed it, now off to bed i go

davidlacey · 28-02-2014 10:50AM

end of the road wrote: »

well Leo varadkar is the man who apparently wants to be irelands boris johnson so i wouldn't be bothering with anything he has to say to be honest, he seems to think that making all the rail network "high speed" and not stopping at all towns on route is the only way to make railways competitive with the roads, so a good quality product wouldn't attract people to the service leo? everybody knows roads got way more then the railway, yeah whatever, but if the railway got a huge investment program like it should have then maybe just maybe it would be "value for money" or something near it. well at least he realizes that ennis athenry is now built and has to be made to work, shame that thought never crossed the relevant peoples minds about rosslare waterford or the on the verge of closure lines that are limerick to waterford and limmerick ballybroaphy, but i suppose thats CIE and politics for you, did he say cork to dublin in 2 hours was achievable? i must admit i spent most of the time ranting at the TV so probably missed it, now off to bed i go

The same with me! IE are incapable of using their rolling stock to the best of their ability. sure yesterday morning time in bray there were two arrivals while I was waitng for a dart a six car set 22000 from drogheda and a 8 car commuter from dundalk, why 22000s are making their way into commuter relatively short distance routes is beyond me? Just look at heuston - newberidge/kildare/portloise! I also understand the programme was about commuters but no word on rail freight! If IE wants to continue why havent other revenue avenues such as rail freight been trialed! If the passengers are not there then they need to trybother things, people can say its ireland and its a small island but proactivity needs to reign but with a puppet like varadkar it looks like he has no clout to make any decisions against IE bigwigs

Copyerselveson · 28-02-2014 11:03AM

I would agree that the way forward for IE is to grow the freight business to get the revenue in. New ways of funding the freight side via partnerships should be part of the answer.

Grandeeod · 28-02-2014 11:18AM

A damning report and not very surprising. Wages up since recession hit? Diabolical carry on.

Kenny doing a lot of dick swinging with the usual if they cut subvention we cut services. Usual CIE/Government bitchfest heading to an all new level. The customer will be the only loser. And then a gem from Kenny, "the motorways eroded into our competitiveness." Incredible stuff. We all knew the motorways were coming while 100s of millions were going into IE. They missed the boat in how they invested the money. All shiney new trains for Government ministers to cut ribbons in front off. The most modern fleet in Europe. Probably one of the slowest too.

RUI telling us what we already know and offering no particular opinion. Very weak. You could be forgiven for thinking they are in IEs pocket these days.

Then Varadkar. A lot of innuendo in what he was saying. Words like not economic, hope, try etc. Comparisons with Luas, DB and BE were stupid, but this doesn't absolve IE from playing a huge role in its own problems. The wage cut is a good start. But long term the begging bowl mentality needs to change. Currently management and staff operate in a heavily protected semi state bubble.

Banjoxed · 28-02-2014 11:19AM

davidlacey wrote: »

Did anyone catch the report on IE on primetime on the back of worker rejecting the pay cuts today? Not much learned as always Barry kenny with usual blabber which is indicative with IE. Leo varadkar says the enterprise is due to be upgraded and cork trains under 2 hours is achievable. WRC was focused on as always with a figure of 8 passengers per train picked from the sky. Usual talk but no action. Whats everyone's view ?

Ridership figures pulled out of someone's ass, comical music played at certain points and talk of "nimble" buses. Yes it's one of upper middle class Ireland's favourite sports, "I drive a merc so why should the peons have trains?"

davidlacey · 28-02-2014 11:46AM

comparing trains to BE and DB especially I thought was rich as the previously mentioned roads have all just been upgraded during the boom which have helped journey times on especially BE routes and cost the company nothing, BE and DB have much fewer overheads than a rail network has, barry kenny saying roads eroded competitiveness is just giving in with no real fight! New rolling stock was bought instead of the real thing that needed to change which is journey times, congestion on connolly routes and a frequent intercity national service

corktina · 28-02-2014 11:47AM

Banjoxed wrote: »

Ridership figures pulled out of someone's ass, comical music played at certain points and talk of "nimble" buses. Yes it's one of upper middle class Ireland's favourite sports, "I drive a merc so why should the peons have trains?"

8 passengers per train comes from Irish Rails own statistics and the level is currently 9.5 apparently with the cheap fare offer.

Copyerselveson · 28-02-2014 11:49AM

I heard that "nimble buses" comment on the Prime Time report, as well as the 8 passengers per Limerick-Galway train comment. None were backed up with facts.

All we have heard on that report and discussions elsewhere on this board are just cranked-up anti-rail rhetoric in my opinion. IE are in a cash crisis however and if savings aren't obtained from the payroll then where are they going to come from?

davidlacey · 28-02-2014 11:54AM

Hindsight I know is a wonderful thing but the WRC should have been the Dublin Rail corridor, with focus on particularly maynooth electrification or extension and most definetly a much more frequent service on rossslre line as far as gorey at least.

draiochtanois · 28-02-2014 11:59AM

This post has been deleted.

corktina · 28-02-2014 12:00PM

Copyerselveson wrote: »

I heard that "nimble buses" comment on the Prime Time report, as well as the 8 passengers per Limerick-Galway train comment. None were backed up with facts.

All we have heard on that report and discussions elsewhere on this board are just cranked-up anti-rail rhetoric in my opinion. IE are in a cash crisis however and if savings aren't obtained from the payroll then where are they going to come from?

I didn't hear it but the 8 passengers per train applies to usage of the Ennis to Athenry section

Banjoxed · 28-02-2014 12:31PM

corktina wrote: »

I didn't hear it but the 8 passengers per train applies to usage of the Ennis to Athenry section

Date and source? I like to see the original and context when something is asserted as fact.

Rootsblower · 28-02-2014 12:46PM

Stripping out social partnership wage increases ( which only kept up with inflation ) Irish Rail staff haven't had a company given pay rise since 2000. One time a train couldn't go anywhere without a train guard and a ticket checker now it's mostly driver only with the driver solely responsable for train safety.

IMHO from taking to rail staff on the ground the consensus seems to be that as the operational employee numbers have dwindled the managerial numbers have soared.One particularly irate driver told me that 129 managers were appointed in 2010 alone.

corktina · 28-02-2014 01:06PM

Banjoxed wrote: »

Date and source? I like to see the original and context when something is asserted as fact.

I already stated that it comes from Irish Rails own statistics,

davidlacey · 28-02-2014 01:22PM

corktina wrote: »

I already stated that it comes from Irish Rails own statistics,

It was a statistic prime time got from one of their own reports 1/2 years ago which indeed was true but it is not an accurate one now as it looks like rte just took it as it hasnt changed with no fact behind it... The WRC is a major issue but it seems to be a smokescreen for much larger ones!

Banjoxed · 28-02-2014 01:52PM

davidlacey wrote: »

It was a statistic prime time got from one of their own reports 1/2 years ago which indeed was true but it is not an accurate one now as it looks like rte just took it as it hasnt changed with no fact behind it... The WRC is a major issue but it seems to be a smokescreen for much larger ones!

Indeed. I prefer my porky pies to be Melton Mobrays rather than inaccurate representations of the facts.

yenom · 28-02-2014 02:33PM

Why didn't they bring up the sacked managers being brought back with pay increases or why management are still being paid bonuses of 20 grand?

green123 · 28-02-2014 03:12PM

Rootsblower wrote: »

Stripping out social partnership wage increases ( which only kept up with inflation ) Irish Rail staff haven't had a company given pay rise since 2000.

so you are not happy getting just one pay rise every year ?

you think that you are entitled to more than one pay rise every year ?

you should be getting a social partnership pay rise and an increment and a pay rise from the company and maybe a bonus as well ?

sickening.

yet another example of our disgraceful public service / semi-state employees

end of the road · 28-02-2014 04:38PM

davidlacey wrote: »

The same with me! IE are incapable of using their rolling stock to the best of their ability. sure yesterday morning time in bray there were two arrivals while I was waitng for a dart a six car set 22000 from drogheda and a 8 car commuter from dundalk, why 22000s are making their way into commuter relatively short distance routes is beyond me? Just look at heuston - newberidge/kildare/portloise!

oh yes, while us peasantry on the rosslare line still have to travel in steerage on horid rickity 29 ks at times, no doubt the usual "fast running out of hueston" and "maintenence schedules" excuses will be trotted out, sorry irish rail, your problem not mine, sort it out.

davidlacey wrote: »

I also understand the programme was about commuters but no word on rail freight! If IE wants to continue why havent other revenue avenues such as rail freight been trialed! If the passengers are not there then they need to trybother things, people can say its ireland and its a small island but proactivity needs to reign but with a puppet like varadkar it looks like he has no clout to make any decisions against IE bigwigs

agree, trucks getting off the boat in rosslare and traveling to cork, a law could have easily been passed requiring that freight depots be built beside the railway and rail connected (after all not all freight in this country is door to door)

davidlacey wrote: »

a puppet like varadkar.
he has no clout to make any decisions against IE bigwigs

would you want him making such decisions though, his comments last night aren't convincing me that one day he won't snap and shut and rip up the lot of the railway (if he is still the minister for transport of course) i wouldn't trust him to clean a toilet to be honest never mind being in charge of our transport, i just don't trust him one bit.

end of the road · 28-02-2014 04:46PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

Wages up since recession hit? Diabolical

i must admit that shocked me, i wonder is much of that management and middle management though? just to put it out there

Grandeeod wrote: »

RUI telling us what we already know and offering no particular opinion. Very weak. You could be forgiven for thinking they are in IEs pocket these days.

brilliant, couldn't have said it better, we need platform 11 back, they got things done
also, the thing i worry about is as they cut cost the subsidy goes down more rather then maybe staying as is, the reason i'm worried about this is that i know eventually services will be cut rather then both government and IE realizing that the subsidy can only be cut before services go, dooms day stuff? i hope so but in this current situation one needs to be prepared for the worst

end of the road · 28-02-2014 04:54PM

davidlacey wrote: »

a much more frequent service on rossslre line

absolutely, theirs to much of a gap between 8 a.m. and the afternoon train, i've spoken to more people then i care to remember on this issue and service frequency and speed are the main things that come up along with the state of the trains when 29s are put on the line, but it won't happen, because graystones dart has damaged potential future growth on the line, because nobody thought to give a dam how extending the dart along a single track section used by a mainline would effect that mainline, i suppose though they hoped south of graystones would have been shut and ripped up in a couple of years after the extension, but who knows, oh well, i don't know anymore

end of the road · 28-02-2014 04:58PM

yenom wrote: »

Why didn't they bring up the sacked managers being brought back with pay increases or why management are still being paid bonuses of 20 grand?

because its better to try turn the public against the staff on the ground rather then dealing with management from what i can see

end of the road · 28-02-2014 05:00PM

green123 wrote: »

so you are not happy getting just one pay rise every year ?

you think that you are entitled to more than one pay rise every year ?

you should be getting a social partnership pay rise and an increment and a pay rise from the company and maybe a bonus as well ?

sickening.

yet another example of our disgraceful public service / semi-state employees

i don't remember him saying he should get a pay rise, he was suggesting that the idea they got massive pay rises over the years wasn't true, but nice try

Grandeeod · 28-02-2014 05:23PM

end of the road wrote: »

i must admit that shocked me, i wonder is much of that management and middle management though? just to put it out there

IMO its right across the board. From senior management to the very bottom. The place needs a clean out and some kind of cost saving pay deal. Varadkar hinted at some brutal possibilities though.

I've said this before and I'll repeat it again. There is no getting away from this. Separate the infrastructure from services. Leave Irish Rail as a company that runs train services. All other infrastructure like track and signalling should be incorporated into a different company similar to the luas. Let the Government pickup the tab for that. Varadkar made an appallingly bad statement when he said that luas doesn't require a subsidy. It's operators aren't bogged down with big infrastructure.

LXFlyer · 28-02-2014 05:37PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

IMO its right across the board. From senior management to the very bottom. The place needs a clean out and some kind of cost saving pay deal. Varadkar hinted at some brutal possibilities though.

I've said this before and I'll repeat it again. There is no getting away from this. Separate the infrastructure from services. Leave Irish Rail as a company that runs train services. All other infrastructure like track and signalling should be incorporated into a different company similar to the luas. Let the Government pickup the tab for that. Varadkar made an appallingly bad statement when he said that luas doesn't require a subsidy. It's operators aren't bogged down with big infrastructure.

Iarnrod Eireann already has been split into two entities (albeit internally) for financial reporting purposes.

end of the road · 28-02-2014 05:40PM

and they will be fully split soon (as they have to be)

Grandeeod · 28-02-2014 05:48PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Iarnrod Eireann already has been split into two entities (albeit internally) for financial reporting purposes.

I know that. Its a fudge to comply with the EU and avoid opening the network to private concerns, its not the same as what I'm suggesting. The Government see it as one big black hole for money. Instead of all this petty you said, he said baloney that goes on between the CIE group in general and the Government, can any of them grab the bull by the horns and do something with the customer in mind. This problem with the railways has been ongoing since the nationalisation of CIE. Now either the mindset is still stuck in the past or the modern day management of IE is unfit to run anything.

end of the road · 28-02-2014 05:51PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

I know that. Its a fudge to comply with the EU and avoid opening the network to private concerns, its not the same as what I'm suggesting. The Government see it as one big black hole for money. Instead of all this petty you said, he said baloney that goes on between the CIE group in general and the Government, can any of them grab the bull by the horns and do something with the customer in mind. This problem with the railways has been ongoing since the nationalisation of CIE. Now either the mindset is still stuck in the past or the modern day management of IE is unfit to run anything.

i'd say both

Grandeeod · 28-02-2014 05:54PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Iarnrod Eireann already has been split into two entities (albeit internally) for financial reporting purposes.

Do these figures show us where the losses are occurring? If Irish rail only had to run trains, would it be making money?

Rootsblower · 28-02-2014 06:00PM

As a railwayman I can tell u from experience there are some good managers within the company who are trying to get things right but unfortunately the general culture within IE by management is " oh that can't be done because........(insert bull**** excuse here)"

That attitude towards both passengers and freight customers should be "What can we do for you"

A lot of the blame for this comes from the excessive health and safety regulations that have come in over the last few years coupled with a claims culture stemming from the general public you wouldn't believe what people have gotten compo from IE for.

You also wouldn't believe in the red tape involved in the running of the railway also which in itself supports a bloated management and support structure which eats up a large amount of the companies revenue each year.

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