Rent allowance in Blanchardstown

chucknorris · 27-02-2014 9:06am #1

Just reading this article this morning, and I'm sure some posters here might like to give their view point. The article concerns rent, but my post here is regarding housing in Dublin 15 generally.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/family-protest-after-rent-hike-forces-them-out-30045788.html

There seems to be two contrasting opinions in the comments. On one hand it seems harsh that an owner is increasing the rent required by 30%, although a private owner can do what they like in the open market. We all know that a housing shortage in Dublin 15 is driving up rental prices and sale prices.

The flip side to the above opinion is that that lady in question gets €950 a month in allowance, like many mothers in The area. Anyone paying a mortgage may take the view that it's an awful lot of money for nothing, but this is the reality.

What concerns me is that there is a house in my estate that is asking for €100k more than I paid out in 2012 for my house. I have to ask myself, has anyone learned any lesson at all from the past. People are again getting ahead of themselves.

ciaran76 · 27-02-2014 10:06am

Its a very good debate which I don't think can be answered very easily.

If renting privately you are open to any type increases which may seem unfair to the family in question but that's reality and most people are aware of this I would have thought.

I have seen increases in my estate also from less than 18 months ago and unless there are rules or regulations in place by governments/councils then I don't see the viscous circle stopping anytime soon.

I know in some countries like Belgium that if you buy a house/apartment then you have to live in it for a year or face massive tax.

I think 2nd home taxes and property tax makes its a little tougher on Landlords but this in reality was bound to drive up rents also.

I am not defending landlords if that's what it seems but they are reacting to current market and who can blame them as there are no rules in place to stop them.

When I lived in Prague my apartment I signed a lease and in the lease it said my rent would increase every year for the 1st 10 years by 1/2% cant remember the exact figure.
This was standard rules there and seemed to control the market somewhat.

chucknorris · 27-02-2014 10:25am

Good points.

It's fair to assume that rent allowance is also driving up the rental price.

Another fair observation is that the lady in question also receives unemployment benefit and children's allowance, and all combined equals €35k.

So the story certainly highlights two eye openers. (1) The bubble in the D15 housing sales, and housing rental markets. D15 more than most other areas at the moment, and (2) The levels of social welfare that some people take for granted.

We have a class divide on all of this.

January · 27-02-2014 10:37am

It's worth noting that while this lady is renting a house for 950pm that she doesn't not receive 950pm from the rent office. She receives about 720 and has to pay the rest herself.

Now I do realise that 720 is still very generous but the limit is not the amount you receive, it's the amount that the social welfare will let you rent for.

Gatling · 27-02-2014 10:40am

January wrote: »

It's worth noting that while this lady is renting a house for 950pm that she doesn't not receive 950pm from the rent office. She receives about 720 and has to pay the rest herself.

Now I do realise that 720 is still very generous but the limit is not the amount you receive, it's the amount that the social welfare will let you rent for.

She would actually be entitled to 1000pm based off current limits

chucknorris · 27-02-2014 10:52am

Gatling wrote: »

She would actually be entitled to 1000pm based off current limits

Correct, she has Three kids so she would be entitled to €950/€1000 allowance.

Whether she gets it in the hand or not, it's still with all other entitlements combined, a serious incentive not to work.

With a serious amount of people getting that in Dublin 15 alone, renters are essentially guaranteed their rent for years, but as we've also learned, no one is every happy with the money they are guaranteed, and if the market commands more, they'll take what they can.

I think the state needs to get a hold of this bubble immediately. Can anyone tell me please, in terms of buy to let properties that NAMA is in possession of, are many or any of them in D15 ?

Everlong1 · 27-02-2014 11:05am

The house next door to me is rented out constantly to welfare dependent families. Every single family so far has been comprised of anti-social toerags. I have to ring the landlord constantly to complain about their behaviour which impacts on me and other residents. He's always sympathetic and admits himself that they destroy the house with drunken fights etc. and he ends up spending a fortune repairing it. Despite this, and despite my constant pleas, he refuses to rent it out to decent, WORKING people. The other house next door to me is also rented out, to decent, WORKING people. I have never had a single problem with any of them.

eviltwin · 27-02-2014 11:32am

I'll be honest it seems like a lot to me. I live in a 3 bed that I bought 10 years ago and my mortgage is only 780 a month, to be paying that much for rent seems a bit excessive. I don't know where she lives of course or the kind of house she was renting and I wouldn't be au fait with rental prices in general anyway.

Everlong I have had the same problem, my next door neighbour rents his house out but won't rent to a working person because as he says RA is guaranteed money. Its a shame because people who are trying to earn a living can't get into the area with rents being so high.

ThisRegard · 27-02-2014 11:34am

January wrote: »

Now I do realise that 720 is still very generous but the limit is not the amount you receive, it's the amount that the social welfare will let you rent for.

chucknorris wrote: »

Correct, she has Three kids so she would be entitled to €950/€1000 allowance.

Whether she gets it in the hand or not, it's still with all other entitlements combined, a serious incentive not to work.

It is fairly crazy to think she's getting more per month rent allowance than many people (who bought before the height of the boom) are paying out on their own private mortgage. And yet she's claiming to be homeless ? As Chuck said, you can understand why some people wonder why the hell they should go out working all day while sending their kids to childcare when they could stay at home and get a fairly decent amount of money into the house.

chucknorris · 27-02-2014 12:10pm

ThisRegard wrote: »

It is fairly crazy to think she's getting more per month rent allowance than many people (who bought before the height of the boom) are paying out on their own private mortgage. And yet she's claiming to be homeless ? As Chuck said, you can understand why some people wonder why the hell they should go out working all day while sending their kids to childcare when they could stay at home and get a fairly decent amount of money into the house.

I myself saved for three years, and the a**e was falling out of the market from 2009 onward so i was preparing for it to hit the bottom. I bought in 2012, and now I have a 20 year mortgage at €800 a month.

To see people entitled to more than that as an entitlement makes me wonder why I do what I do, although my senses come around and I know that personally I'd simply prefer to pay my way, and contribute to society, but there has to be an incentive or limits put in to encourage people not to rely on this subsidy.

I'm not not one to regularly defend Labour (as some of you know my loyalties), but it seems the angle taken on this story is that some how Joan Burton is to blame. How much do people want handed to them? Surely the state is giving out a fairly significant contribution.

If Joan Burton was to increase the subsidy it would add to the bubble and she would be attacked for that too. As it stands she cannot allow a further reduction if there is genuinely no other properties to avail of.

On the governments part they need to control the bubble and I'd hope that NAMA has allot of proprietors in D15 that they can release on to the market and control what's going on by way of diluting the available stock.

Larbre34 · 27-02-2014 12:33pm

Yes but Joan and the Govt generally are to blame for the cause and effect, as by reducing the subsidy in a general market scrambling for private rented accommodation, it hardly encourages Landlords to reduce prices for social tenants, they merely move the stock into the private sector and jack up the rent to local norms thereby resulting in a massive pinch of social rental homes, which becomes an even more critical issue

Like so many aspects of society, the govt never look at the big picture. Take the drive to UHI as another example.

Gaspode · 27-02-2014 12:40pm

Guys, this is not a D15 topic. If approved by the mods there I'll be moving this to accomodation and property forum and you can continue the discussion there.

chucknorris · 27-02-2014 12:52pm

Gaspode wrote: »

Guys, this is not a D15 topic. If approved by the mods there I'll be moving this to accomodation and property forum and you can continue the discussion there.

The bubble is most felt in D15, and the lady in the article is in D15, and Joan Burton is an elected TD for D15.

Personally I think this is very much a subject for Dublin 15 particularly.

I'll leave the powers that be to decide.

Larbre34 · 27-02-2014 4:51pm

I agree, the local elections are coming up soon so discussion of issues that have perhaps local origins and also wider national aspects is likely without those discussions being necessarily off topic.

DvB · 27-02-2014 5:11pm

Is there genuinely a shortage of rental accommodation in D15?

I'm staggered if that's the case TBH, i know personally of 2 different people who can't get tenants for 3 bed semi-detached houses in the area & have been active in terms of advertising etc.

I also know a lady through work with a 2 bed apt in Ongar that has been looking for a tenant since before Christmas, she's refusing to accept RA & advertises that fact, she gets plenty of queries, all however on RA & ringing to enquire anyway.

Gaspode · 27-02-2014 5:28pm

I cant see how this is D15-specific, this seems to be the same situation all over Dublin.

EDIT: On second thoughts, lets see how the discussion develops for a while. Convince me it's a D15 issue (better than you have been!) and I'll keep well away.

The_Conductor · 27-02-2014 8:20pm

First of all- I'd like to encourage people to have a look over in the Accommodation and Property forum- we have new threads not dissimilar to this several times a week. The only point of note here- is that Joan Burton is the lady's local TD- aside from that- she could be in Cork, Galway, or almost any other part of the country- this is far from a unique D15 issue. Statistically- the place with the greatest mismatch between tenants on social welfare, and supply of housing on the various schemes- is curiously in Co. Clare- which wouldn't come to mind (and similarly- Clare has seen a remarkable resurgence in its housing prices).

There is a stratification occuring in the rental and For-Sale market. Supplies are beginning to increase in D15 and D22 in particular- and there is active lobbying on Councillors to insist the social provisions of planning applications are implemented (something that was conveniently ignored during the boom years).

Unfortunately- hoping NAMA or some other agency is going to magic up a supply of residential property- simply is wishful thinking. NAMA actually has very little residential property in the Dublin area- the vast bulk of its properties are commercial in nature (you can download its annual report- its an interesting read).

This whole issue unfortunately is not a D15 issue- its worse felt in the greater Dublin area- but also a severe issue in our other major cities, and in a few unusual outposts (such as Clare). Have a look at areas adjacent to D15- just as an example- Lucan for example doesn't have any residential property available to let- as-in, none at all- not to private, not to social welfare tenants, none.

People need to apply pressure to their representatives- especially councillors- as is local councillors who have cheerfully allowed developers out of their social housing obligations (often against the express wishes of the Department of the Environment).

athtrasna · 27-02-2014 11:20pm

It's not a D15 specific issue and it's not Joan Burton's fault. Demand exceeds supply in the private rented market in certain areas of D15 as it is. Why then would a landlord accept rent allowance where

the council sets the maximum rent payable and can unilaterally change this at any time
rent allowance by default is paid to the tenant not the landlord, the onus is on the tenant to pay that plus the mandatory top up to the landlord, this doesn't always happen, see A&P as suggested for so many examples of this
rent allowance tenants have been given a bad name by the bad apples who abuse the system
wear and tear on the property is likely to be higher than in a private rental as the tenants are more likely to spend more time in the unit

Add onto that the developers not living up to commitments on social housing, and the RTA giving bad tenants more rights than the landlord...

The system is wrong, nationwide, not just in D15.

chucknorris · 28-02-2014 9:18am

My thread was created with the Blanchardstown housing market in mind, both rental and for sale.

In Rusheeney a house has popped up on the market for 100K more than what I paid for a house of equal standard in 2012.

I doubt this is happening in allot of places within Dublin, but Dublin 15 is bucking all the trends both with the levels of rental commanded and what houses are now selling for.

athtrasna · 28-02-2014 2:21pm

My sister bought a house in Ballinteer in 2012 and a house on the same road, in worse condition, just sold for €145k more than they paid. It's really not just D15

chucknorris · 28-02-2014 3:42pm

athtrasna wrote: »

My sister bought a house in Ballinteer in 2012 and a house on the same road, in worse condition, just sold for €145k more than they paid. It's really not just D15

Ballinteer would have high demand in the middle or Armageddon in fairness

KGLady · 28-02-2014 4:28pm

DvB wrote: »

Is there genuinely a shortage of rental accommodation in D15?

I'm staggered if that's the case TBH, i know personally of 2 different people who can't get tenants for 3 bed semi-detached houses in the area & have been active in terms of advertising etc.

I'd have to wonder is there an underlying issue with those properties causing the lack of interest. I helped a neighbour taking pics to advertise to rent their home as a result of an unexpected and urgent need to move to be close to their family. Honestly within 20mins of listing the 3Bed Semi they had incoming calls. It ended up with people offering above the rent she advertised as they were so anxious to secure the property and stated a lack of anything similar in the area - this was only a few months ago, and since then all I hear of is shortages in rental properties.

Godge · 28-02-2014 7:10pm

chucknorris wrote: »

My thread was created with the Blanchardstown housing market in mind, both rental and for sale.

In Rusheeney a house has popped up on the market for 100K more than what I paid for a house of equal standard in 2012.

I doubt this is happening in allot of places within Dublin, but Dublin 15 is bucking all the trends both with the levels of rental commanded and what houses are now selling for.

What is different about D.15 to other parts of the country is that there is an awful lot of residentially zoned areas, be it around Ongar, Phoenix Park Racecourse, Diswellstown or Tyrellstown that have land available but haven't been built on.

Godge · 28-02-2014 7:15pm

KGLady wrote: »

I'd have to wonder is there an underlying issue with those properties causing the lack of interest. I helped a neighbour taking pics to advertise to rent their home as a result of an unexpected and urgent need to move to be close to their family. Honestly within 20mins of listing the 3Bed Semi they had incoming calls. It ended up with people offering above the rent she advertised as they were so anxious to secure the property and stated a lack of anything similar in the area - this was only a few months ago, and since then all I hear of is shortages in rental properties.

did a quick search on daft.ie, Dublin 15, 3/4 bedroomed house, 31 properties came up ranging in price from €1100 in Briarwood, Mulhuddary for a 3-bed to €1500 in Delwood and Park Avenue fro a 4-bed.

Murt10 · 28-02-2014 9:42pm

Godge wrote: »

did a quick search on daft.ie, Dublin 15, 3/4 bedroomed house, 31 properties came up ranging in price from €1100 in Briarwood, Mulhuddary for a 3-bed to €1500 in Delwood and Park Avenue fro a 4-bed.

And how many say No Rent Allowance, which is your womans problem? Also from reading other posts on this thread, and other reports I've heard, I would be equally reluctant to take Rent All., if I was a landlord.

athtrasna · 28-02-2014 9:47pm

chucknorris wrote: »

Ballinteer would have high demand in the middle or Armageddon in fairness

In D15 we have a 3rd level college, one of the biggest shopping developments in the country and numerous vast industrial parks with some of the biggest employers in the city.

There are (theoretically) frequent and reliable public transport connections to the city centre and other suburbs. D15 has a lot going for it as a place to live.

I advertised a room for rent a few months ago. I had over thirty responses within two hours. People want to live here.

Victor · 01-03-2014 7:57am

chucknorris wrote: »

although a private owner can do what they like in the open market.

Not quite. Rent increase can't be greater than the market rate.

truebluesac · 01-03-2014 3:46pm

I have 2 rental properties in dublin 15 ,

The last time i advertised my house in ongar for rent i recieved over 80 calls from people wanting to rent and view my property ,

I keep my places clean , well maintained and fresh painted , for this my rent is slightly over the going rate ,

I cut the list and showed to 30 in 2 days . 22 made offers of intent to rent

Out of 80 odd original applicants there were over 60 asking if i accepted rent allowance ,

Is there a need for more rentals in dublin 15 ?

IMO yes

truebluesac · 01-03-2014 3:48pm

Victor wrote: »

Not quite. Rent increase can't be greater than the market rate.

For new renters/tennants you can ask what you want

For exisisting tennants there are rules to follow set down by the PRTB

Rent allowance in Blanchardstown

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