Swiftway - Bus Rapid Transit (BRT)

strassenwo!f · 24-02-2014 10:40PM

Why not just CPO a couple of houses and build it through Grangegorman. That solves the Stoneybatter problem.

Aard · 24-02-2014 10:52PM

The Grangegorman project has already jumped through all the hoops that to add BRT to the mix would fundamentally change the entire project, and it would have to restart from scratch. But yes I agree it would have been better if the BRT route could have gone through Grangegorman.

Banjoxed · 24-02-2014 11:04PM

liamog wrote: »

Would we not end up in a better ecological situation with regards to the powering the transport and avoid the costs of utility diversion? I'd guess wired busways are a fair bit cheaper than light rail.

I was impressed by the system in San Francisco where they could overtake each other, I'm guessing onboard batteries were used for short disconnects.

Go to the bother of installing electrical infrastructure without the benefits of greater capacity? Go for trams then as trolley buses can't offer greater capacity for the cost of installing a tram line.

Spanish Eyes · 24-02-2014 11:31PM

Aard wrote: »

The Grangegorman project has already jumped through all the hoops that to add BRT to the mix would fundamentally change the entire project, and it would have to restart from scratch. But yes I agree it would have been better if the BRT route could have gone through Grangegorman.

Forward planning is something we do well in this country! Not. But then the LUAS cross city was the only thing on their minds at the time.

So the students could get to the new College...huh. From where?

Grandeeod · 24-02-2014 11:32PM

You folks do realise that this BRT thing is yet another reinvention of the public transport wheel?

Banjoxed · 25-02-2014 12:43AM

Grandeeod wrote: »

You folks do realise that this BRT thing is yet another reinvention of the public transport wheel?

Yes think that was noticed alright. Still, it gives the man in a hurry the impression that something is being done, and that seems to be the point. There would be some sqeeling if real busways were implemented on the proposed routes so QBC the sequel looks like the likely result.

monument · 25-02-2014 12:52AM

cgcsb wrote: »

In fairness that's not comparable to what posters on this thread have said. People here are criticising the €.65bn spend

I strongly support DU -- far more so than BRT alone.

But are we going to measure DU in trillions?

cgcsb wrote: »

on a system, that provisionally seems to only offer the advantages of: multi-door operation and off bus ticketing, both of which can be delivered for much less money.

Even if they mess up the design of the lanes, what's included goes far beyond "multi-door operation and off bus ticketing".

Lists of what's include wee already posted -- you can refer back to them.

cgcsb wrote: »

Some posters would rather see the €.65billion, along with the money pledged by the EIB and developers contributions go into getting DARTu off the ground asap. Nobody here has opposed public transport, merely questioned the value for money.

How are you going to transfer a fictional €.65billion to the DU project?

The first two BRT routes which are apprently to go ahead are not planned to cost that amount. That's the estimate for all the routes.

Furthermore it's not likely that more than one BRT route will go ahead at the same time. So we're talking about a few 100 million at a time at most.

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

So those are imaginary cars parked on the right? I don't see any on the left but they're usually there when I'm cycling in there. Maybe those cars shouldn't be there legally but the fact of the matter is that they are. The houses on the left all have gardens and off-road parking facilities but NONE of the houses on the right do. So what do they do? Park in their neighbours' gardens? Park around on the NCR? In Stoneybatter? 5 mins away from their houses and out of site/earshot? Clamping them isn't going to move the cars out of the way and unless they intend to have a constant clamper van going before the busses 16 hours a day, people are going to still park there. Especially when they have no choice.

There's illegally parked cars there. That's not parking, that's illegal parking.

There's loads of places in Dublin and other cities around the world where residents can't park outside their doors. It's not a right to be able to park outside your door. A lack of enforcement up to now does not change that fact.

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

By limited do you mean the automatic bollards only allowing approved vehicles through? (Residents etc?). There may not be many businesses there but there is one builder's supply company there and a few B&Bs. The builder's supply place and the B&Bs all have off road parking but how do they get in there?

I've covered this in detail already. Please do read / scan the thread if you want to find my post on that. No house or B&B would be denied access and bollard access or camera enforcement would only be needed to the BRT lanes at both ends of the road and in the centre near the railway bridge.

To add to my previous points: the builders supply has frontage onto another street and can be compensated to change their yard and store access and set up.

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Again, all the houses on the right have NO off road parking

I don't know who parks there but who ever does seems to be, more often than not, breaking the law.

Breaking the law = parking inside a solid white centre line, parking on a cycle lane, parking partly on the footpath, parking in a way which obstructs traffic etc.

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

And you are trying to ignore areas

I'm not ignoring anything.

You're giving people who are breaking the law some kind of fictional rights.

Aard · 25-02-2014 01:03AM

The debate would go a lot smoother, and would be a lot more interesting and engaging, if people were to separate their political arguments from their technical ones. The political argument centres around whether or not this is a good spend of money, and whether or not BRT is the priority at the moment. The technical argument is about whether BRT will meet capacity requirements along the corridors, whether or not these are the appropriate corridors, and how the infrastructure will be designed.

Of course, the point is somewhat moot given that we don't actually really know yet what it being proposed. The NTA are still deep in the consultation phase.

Godge · 25-02-2014 11:32AM

monument wrote: »

I'll be amoung the first to rip into any flaws in the plans but...

This has already been covered in this thread.

I'm open to correction, but it's already legally 100% off road parking at least at the day time when the cycle lanes are in operation.

It's a good candidate...possibly one of the best candidates so close to the city centre... to be made into limited access and bus only -- there's little to no businesses on it and 90% of the few businesses are on the NCR end can be accommodated by changing then current left turning lane from the NCR to parking/loading.

We've been told things like this and other transport projects were not posable or would bring economic doom etc, and yet they still happened -- DublinBikes, College Green bus gate, Luas Cross City, Luas on city centre streets, QBCs, Grafton Street, the original Dart project etc, etc, etc.

You're wrong to think only people in wheelchairs get disabled parking cards.
Disabled Person's Parking Cards are used by a wide range of people who are unable to stand or walk any more than a short distance, including those with "MS to arthritis to disc issues".

BTW don't presume you know much about me or my family. And you should know that such a personal focus is off limits by way of the charter and general rules of boards.ie.

The BRT lanes can be put in the centre or to one side and also physically segregated from the rest of traffic. Problem solved.

Another option is on-bus enforcement cameras -- which work wonders.

But basically you're trying to find project-stopping issues where there are none. Whatever about places like Stoneybatter, trying make out that a four-laned road is an issue standard BRT designs can't handle is taking the biscuit.

Look, you are not getting it. It all sounds good in theory.

If people behaved like they should when driving and didn't drive in bus lanes.
If cars didn't park illegally.
If cyclists stuck to cycle lanes.
If sufficient space was available in places like Stoneybatter and Cabra to maintain a car lane.
If Blanchardstown Centre owners gave due priority to public transport and a full redesign of all access took place.
If the Maynooth line is electrified this decade and the DU interconnector completed

Well then BRT Blanchardstown might, but only might work.

Unfortunately, all of that won't happen and therefore BRT won't work. The reality is that the political will is not there for this to happen in the way that you dream and in the way that the planners paint colours on a map.

I am deliberately not commenting on the other routes as I am not as familiar with them but I have used the bus, the car, the bicycle and the motorcycle on that route for a long period of time and I have a pretty good understanding of how previous initiatives have gone and how the planning system works in Ireland.

Markcheese · 25-02-2014 01:44PM

If people behave properly ??
Ah nothing like a bit of enforcement to change people's habits pretty quick ,!!
I'm sure the original Luas projects couldn't be done either, but they work,

LXFlyer · 25-02-2014 02:04PM

The North County Leader is far from impressed by these plans, testing existing journey times last week.

http://www.northcountyleader.ie/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=15355:150m-sham&Itemid=101

I have to admit that this is one of my reservations. They quote a Swords/City journey time of 35 minutes. As it is the typical off-peak daytime journey time on the 33 between Swords Village and the city is 35-40 minutes.

schemingbohemia · 25-02-2014 02:29PM

Interesting that they chose the mid-term break to carry out their research. I'm not convinced of the efficacy of BRT either but if they wanted to be fair they should be checking it at 730/8 on a Tuesday morning though that might be a bit early for the journalist.

monument · 25-02-2014 03:25PM

Godge wrote: »

Look, you are not getting it. It all sounds good in theory.

You're banging on about theory but I've already gave real-world examples...

Godge wrote: »

If people behaved like they should when driving and didn't drive in bus lanes.
If cars didn't park illegally.

It's not theory -- segregated BRT lanes and on-bus traffic enforcement cameras are both real-world effective methods of dealing with driving or parking in bus lanes.

Godge wrote: »

If sufficient space was available in places like Stoneybatter and Cabra to maintain a car lane.

There are solutions.

Even if limiting access to the Old Cabra Road is not to your liking, it's still a viable solution.

A tiny bit of segregation, enforcement and half decent set up traffic lights would would wonders in Stoneybatter.

Godge wrote: »

If Blanchardstown Centre owners gave due priority to public transport and a full redesign of all access took place.

There's four lanes, already space for a stop, and priority will be set by the application to ABP and the road authority.

A non-issue. Even if it could somehow be called an issue it's not a notable one.

Godge wrote: »

If the Maynooth line is electrified this decade and the DU interconnector completed

Would be nice but not needed for BRT to go ahead.

cgcsb · 25-02-2014 03:38PM

monument wrote: »

Even if they mess up the design of the lanes, what's included goes far beyond "multi-door operation and off bus ticketing".

Lists of what's include wee already posted -- you can refer back to them.

The other benefit is traffic signal priority, already done in the 90's/00's and switched off without explanation. So, I'd hardly count that. The less frequent stops has already been achieved with the Xpresso services, so I'd hardly count that either. The only new benefits are multi door operation and off bus ticketing, both of which can be achieved without Bendy buses and new branding.

cdebru · 25-02-2014 03:47PM

Markcheese wrote: »

If people behave properly ??
Ah nothing like a bit of enforcement to change people's habits pretty quick ,!!
I'm sure the original Luas projects couldn't be done either, but they work,

Luas is a different concept people don't park their car, truck, taxi, garda car, private coach etc etc on the luas lines because they clearly understand that the Luas is incapable of moving around any stationary object.
The Luas lines have had all the underground services moved so they don't have bord gais, Irish water, ESB, traffic light maintenance etc digging up holes and filling it back in will uneven crap surface on the newly laid very expensive super flat surface that the BRT needs to supply a comfortable ride on the articulated buses.
Why do we have to spend €650 million and then look for enforcement ? why not enforce the laws on what we have and see how that works out?

cdebru · 25-02-2014 03:50PM

lxflyer wrote: »

The North County Leader is far from impressed by these plans, testing existing journey times last week.

http://www.northcountyleader.ie/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=15355:150m-sham&Itemid=101

I have to admit that this is one of my reservations. They quote a Swords/City journey time of 35 minutes. As it is the typical off-peak daytime journey time on the 33 between Swords Village and the city is 35-40 minutes.

Note on the malahide road they gave 30 minutes as a BRT journey time that would be knocking on the door of where the 15 is at the moment. And they didn't claim what the time saving is on the Clongriffin to O'connell bridge.

monument · 25-02-2014 05:29PM

cgcsb wrote: »

The other benefit is traffic signal priority, already done in the 90's/00's and switched off without explanation. So, I'd hardly count that.

Still an improvement compared to now and traffic signal priority with bus/BRT lanes up to junctions works better than the lane being cut short by a turning lane.

cgcsb wrote: »

The less frequent stops has already been achieved with the Xpresso services, so I'd hardly count that either.

You're comparing Xpresso, a service which has a few buses a day on routes, to BRT which will run all day long*?

* not all day but starting a little before Dublin Bus drivers are turning up to work and finishing up when many on the last shift have gone home?

cgcsb wrote: »

The only new benefits are multi door operation and off bus ticketing, both of which can be achieved without Bendy buses and new branding.

I've already posted a list of things BRT should also bring. It's longer than those two things.

As for 'Bendy buses' they also bring something new: more capacity.

And new branding is vital to promote a notably improved service as different to the current Dublin Bus brand which is tainted.

TheBandicoot · 25-02-2014 05:35PM

monument wrote: »

* not all day but starting a little before Dublin Bus drivers are turning up to work and finishing up when many on the last shift have gone home?

Source on the proposed running times? Can't find anything on swiftway.ie.

TheBandicoot · 25-02-2014 05:51PM

I will make a positive comment, btw, it is good to see the creation of a transport corridor through the southwest of the city, the Harold's Cross/Terenure axis. I used to live there and took the 16a/49 to town. Certainly essentially giving the 49(which everyone I knew made special effort to get over the 16a because it was easily twice as fast) some dedicated infrastructure would be a major improvement to transport in the area.

There was a C/BA done into a Luas route for the area. I note that it wanted a loop arrangement in place from around the Mount Tallant area through to Terenure village because of concerns around shared running lanes- presumably they are happy with BRT to live with shared running? However instead they are looping around Rathfarnam village, so I don't know.

Luas report : http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Luas%20Line%20E/Luas%20Line%20E%20Documents/Feasibility%20Study%20Possible%20Luas%20Line%20Rathfarnham%20to%20City%20Centre%20(Line%20E).pdf

Based on the results of the engineering, environmental, traffic and property
acquisition analysis of the selected study line for Line E, it can be concluded that
the line is feasible in overall terms.

In view of the negative impact of shared running on the heavily trafficked N81
through Terenure village which would otherwise arise, it can be concluded that
feasibility of the line is contingent upon a single track loop arrangement being
accommodated at this location.

Demand and cost studies based on modelling indicate that Line E would fall short of
covering its operation and maintenance costs by approximately €1.5 million per
annum. Given the sensitivities of the model, which has been demonstrated in the
context of predicted and real demand on the Luas Green and Red Lines, the
demand and cost studies are best viewed as inconclusive.

I suppose my point is that, when looking at Luas options the RPA made every effort to minimise conflict with other modes and avoid shared-use lanes, but that when looking at BRT options the NTA has not tried as hard. I know, I know, 'give it time', but my opinion is that the indicative routes proposed have not been thought through or taken previous planning for mass transit in the areas into account.

LXFlyer · 25-02-2014 06:25PM

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Source on the proposed running times? Can't find anything on swiftway.ie.

From the FAQs section:

▶ How long will it take to go from Blanchardstown town centre to the City Centre?
The target journey time from Blanchardstown town centre to the City Centre will be about 35 minutes – a reduction of about one third from current bus journey times along this corridor.

▶ How long will it take to go from Swords/Airport to the City Centre?
The target journey time from Swords to O’Connell Bridge will be about 35 minutes – a reduction of about one third from current bus journey times along this corridor.

▶ How long will it take to go from Clongriffin to Dublin city centre?
The target journey time from Clongriffin to O’Connell Bridge will be about 30 minutes – significantly less than the current bus journey times along this corridor.

▶ How frequent will the Swiftway service be?
It is intended to operate Swiftway at a frequency of approximately every four minutes during peak times.

▶ How long will Swiftway operate in a typical day?
Currently, it is intended that Swiftway services will operate similar hours to existing bus and Luas services. The hours of operation during weekdays are likely to be between 6.00am and 12.00 am. These hours may vary at weekends.

Not that much longer than at present I would suggest.

TheBandicoot · 25-02-2014 06:27PM

EDIT: ok, sorry lxflyer, saw that you edited to include

The hours of operation during weekdays are likely to be between 6.00am and 12.00 am. These hours may vary at weekends.

That is absolutely in no way "starting a little before Dublin Bus drivers are turning up to work and finishing up when many on the last shift have gone home" as monument claims.

magg1ec · 25-02-2014 08:45PM

This idea, dreamt up at a desk [to appease voters?] is not, and should not be considered the answer to the shelving of Metro North. Are we to believe that if Swiftway happens then Metro North will too?!!

The routing of the Swords buses through a green area cannot and will not be tolerated.

The projected journey time is ridiculous. From the Rathbeale Road through Dublin Airport and on in through Drumcondra in less than 40 mins?!! What planet are they on?

We the people have voter power.

To the councillor and politicians let us say: we have the power!

AlekSmart · 25-02-2014 08:56PM

TheBandicoot wrote: »

EDIT: ok, sorry lxflyer, saw that you edited to include

That is absolutely in no way "starting a little before Dublin Bus drivers are turning up to work and finishing up when many on the last shift have gone home" as monument claims.

For this type of "Thing" to actually be mould breaking,it needs to get far away from the present arrangements.

The BRT system should be fully 24/7...End-Of.

By ACTUALLY being different,the ability of BRT to attract and retain NEW Public Transport users is thereby increased.

Monument is most likely unaware that,Dublin Bus drivers recruited since 2000,can be rostered to work over the 24 hour period,with the only outstanding element being the differing rest and working time limits associated with "Night-Work" (which definition incidentally,under the Working Time Act, differs somewhat for "Mobile Workers").

The BRT proposals currently being put for Public Consultation,IMO,appear quite outdated,which only serves to fuel my scepticism.
It is as if the original proposals from a decade + ago had suddenly been found by a new "Office Junior" and dropped onto the desk of the New Boss who went "WOW...Where didja get THIS ?" :eek:

They really do need to go for broke on this,as the concept is excellent,but if not fully understood and resourced,essentially worthless......:(

cdebru · 25-02-2014 08:57PM

monument wrote: »

* not all day but starting a little before Dublin Bus drivers are turning up to work and finishing up when many on the last shift have gone home?

I've already posted a list of things BRT should also bring. It's longer than those two things.

As for 'Bendy buses' they also bring something new: more capacity.

And new branding is vital to promote a notably improved service as different to the current Dublin Bus brand which is tainted.

First

NTA is suggesting 6am to 12am operating times so I don't know where you are getting the idea that 6am is before DB drivers start work or that they finish before 12?

Second the capacity listed for bendy buses by the NTA is 120 the current VTs that DB operate carry 119 to 124 so no improvement in capacity for a vehicle that is not as comfortable needs a special road surface, is not easy to drive is far far more dangerous mixing with cyclists, needs much longer bus stops, and redesigned junctions is much harder and more dangerous to overtake in.

My objection is that this is a waste of 650 million on a pet project, with dubious claims for improvements in capacity and journey times, that I believe could easily be achieved with very little expense.

Slight improvements in current QBCs coupled with actual enforcement of the current laws, on street ticketing and validation. Multi door triaxle double decker buses to improve capacity where needed.

Most of the improvements listed are already there or could be easily implemented for little cost.afaics most of the improvements you claim have been show to already exist or could easily be implemented/reimplemented so you are searching for reasons to spend 650 million and failing miserably.

Lastly if the DB brand is tainted why the desire to hang on to it in relation to tendering ??

cgcsb · 25-02-2014 09:30PM

monument wrote: »

You're comparing Xpresso, a service which has a few buses a day on routes, to BRT which will run all day long*?

* not all day but starting a little before Dublin Bus drivers are turning up to work and finishing up when many on the last shift have gone home?

Easily addressed by increasing number of Xpresso service and increasing DB operating hours.

monument wrote: »

And new branding is vital to promote a notably improved service as different to the current Dublin Bus brand which is tainted.

I, like most people I'd imagine, don't view branding as significant and it strikes of a fairly flimsy excuse to spend €.65bn.

Spanish Eyes · 25-02-2014 09:43PM

€650million is a HUGE amount of money. It really is.

When we take into account all the cuts to services that happened recently. And the scrabbling around looking for savings in everything else that moves.

Bottom line....

Will this be worth the investment?
Will encroaches on the line be enforced? (cars, taxis, bikes, illegal parking, left turns)
Are the routes compatible with swift travel?

I would say one thing... If all extraneous traffic is banned by law from the BRT lane, and if the buses are, by law, fitted with dash cams and can relay the info to the traffic corps or the parking service, then fine!

But otherwise, it is a recipe for mayhem, as now.

Enforcement is the key. But it doesn't take 650million to achieve a swift corridor imv.

My gripe is the amount of money for this, when so many other things are curtailed.

Surely the current service would be just great, if priority is given at the lights, if no lef t turns allowed, if cyclists have to use a footpath cycle lane, if taxis aren't allowed to pick up and drop off, or illegally Rank, parking, and so on.

The theory is fine, but the practicalities are not filling me with enthusiasm.

Especially sine €650m. Jeez, yes, that amount of money is being spent from my taxes.

This has to be proven to be a no fail winner. For that amount of money, nothing less will do really.

cgcsb · 25-02-2014 09:51PM

I'd like to see a breakdown of the costs. I'd imagine most of the price tag will go on the buses, which strikes me as silly when the new double deckers have the same capacity as the bendy buses and exit/enter doors. I'm just not seeing the value, unless there's a serious redesign of roads to ensure close to 100% segregation.

Filibuster · 25-02-2014 11:15PM

tommythecat wrote: »

I live on the proposed Clongriffin/Tallaght route at Terenure. It seems like a good idea if implemented well. But my major concern is the sharing of the Bus lane with standard DB. Whats the point of all this great ticketing, less stops etc if the BRT is stuck behind the 16 or 49 collecting 10-15 people at every stop who have to all pay the driver individually? How is that going to solve anything?

This is the €650m question, and I don't see where it has been addressed.

cdebru · 25-02-2014 11:48PM

Filibuster wrote: »

This is the €650m question, and I don't see where it has been addressed.

It has been fudged at best, the NTA propose semi open BRT lanes they envisage reduced regular fleet because they would be duplicated by the BRT routes but they don't address what stops the other buses using those BRT lanes would use and how the BRT buses will get around normal buses particularly in heavy peak time traffic. They also fudge on whether taxis would be allowed use the BRT lanes. They also don't specify if as at present bicycles would be allowed to use the BRT lane even though a cycle lane is provided.

If it was done properly it would be feeder buses and only BRT buses would run the BRT lanes but the problem with that is their models are already showing the BRT not being able to meet demand in certain places. So they need the normal services to augment the BRT but that gives you another headache as to how you deliver a reliable journey time while your long difficult to overtake with articulated buses are stuck behind regular buses.

Idbatterim · 26-02-2014 12:17AM

numbers at the airport up 10% in January alone. I saw a residents page objecting to BRT on facebook, they mentioned something about their green, but also that it was short term, inadequate and would scupper Metro North, possibly permanently or for years to come, which is my concern. Lots of you on this thread also seem to be against it, will you be attending any of the hearings or appealing?

Swiftway - Bus Rapid Transit (BRT)

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