Can you afford this?

Outkast_IRE · 21-02-2014 06:42PM

If it would be compulsory why the hell bother with insurance companies at all ? They will just want their cut out of the whole thing.

If they grew a pair of balls and starting reining in some of the vastly overpaid individuals in the sector, it would be a start.

I have no problem with a proper amount tax on wages to cover a good level of healthcare.

I know people in Germany and about half their wages goes on tax, but if they need a specialist and treatment they can get it within a few days no problems.

Tilly · 21-02-2014 06:46PM

zarquon wrote: »

Not true. It's categorized as a benefit in kind and therefore applicable for additional paye tax.

Same with my employer but i have to pay tax on the BIK which is not taken at source as the employer pays it.

It's not BIK. I don't pay a cent, tax or not. It's not that hard to understand. Your employer is not mine

ScumLord · 21-02-2014 06:47PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

The thing is that they could add a clause to the policies of customers like me who have pre-existing medical problems,which could mean that we would have to pay x amount of years of premiums before we could be covered for those conditions.

And we could put a clause in telling them to feck off. We would have serious sway going into a deal where it's essentially a million and a half against one. We're talking about millions of euros and any company would be willing to make some serious concessions to get their hands on a lump sum like that.

We could simply demand they take everyone on board and we start from scratch, preexisting conditions or not. .

After all premiums are going up not down, so it doesn't seem as though the health insurance companies are too concerned about the loss of clients.

Premiums are going up because they're losing customers, flooding them with thousands and thousands of new customers is going to bring their prices down and also give the company a healthier bottom line even if they have to deal with some expensive cases.

If the insurance companies force the health services to find better ways of dealing with serious and non serious cases (like stopping people going into emergency with a head cold) they'd see further reductions in costs. I think the government just doesn't have the balls or will to pull the health service into line, a private company might. If that happened we'd all save money.

Mena · 21-02-2014 06:49PM

Tilly wrote: »

It's not BIK. I don't pay a cent, tax or not. It's not that hard to understand. Your employer is not mine

Above board you mean.

woodoo · 21-02-2014 06:52PM

If they do away with USC then fine but if its on top of the USC then they can f**k right off.

Stavros Murphy · 21-02-2014 07:47PM

woodoo wrote: »

If they do away with USC then fine but if its on top of the USC then they can f**k right off.

I agree, and I have private health insurance, a crappy cheap-ass policy that covers feck all really, but what would you do? Honestly? Not pay it? Yeah right, like the Household Tax? Revenue are after the non-payers at the mo, they'll pay, wait and see. So what then? It's just another tax, another little cut to the money in your pocket. People will whinge, people will moan, and it'll be ramroaded through and Revenue will have their rottweillers collect the dosh.

I got out of my battered van today after work to get diesel, covered in oil and grease and utterly banjaxed from work. A lad of around 20 pulled up alongside in a 2014 AMG Merc and hopped out, dressed to the nines and fresh as a daisy - not to be blunt, but he was one of our "protected minorities" and I doubt if he's too burdened with Taxes, or charges, or PRSI. I know this is crass, and probably discriminatory, but fcuk me, I did wonder just what sort of a gobshyte you need to be to be a Taxpayer here in Ireland these days. I say that as one of the gobshytes.

darkpagandeath · 21-02-2014 07:50PM

Stavros Murphy wrote: »

I agree, and I have private health insurance, a crappy cheap-ass policy that covers feck all really, but what would you do? Honestly? Not pay it? Yeah right, like the Household Tax? Revenue are after the non-payers at the mo, they'll pay, wait and see. So what then? It's just another tax, another little cut to the money in your pocket. People will whinge, people will moan, and it'll be ramroaded through and Revenue will have their rottweillers collect the dosh.

I got out of my battered van today after work to get diesel, covered in oil and grease and utterly banjaxed from work. A lad of around 20 pulled up alongside in a 2014 AMG Merc and hopped out, dressed to the nines and fresh as a daisy - not to be blunt, but he was one of our "protected minorities" and I doubt if he's too burdened with Taxes, or charges, or PRSI. I know this is crass, and probably discriminatory, but fcuk me, I did wonder just what sort of a gobshyte you need to be to be a Taxpayer here in Ireland these days. I say that as one of the gobshytes.

One of them types that cant afford to pay money to dodge tax me thinks. A normal Joe as they would say.

zarquon · 21-02-2014 07:51PM

Tilly wrote: »

It's not BIK. I don't pay a cent, tax or not. It's not that hard to understand. Your employer is not mine

If your employer provides health insurance it is a BIK. Just because you have not declared the BIK to revenue does not mean it is not.

You need to read the revenue guide on this. It's not hard to understand! If you don't pay paye on the BIK it means both you and your employer are acting illegally

www.revenue.ie/leaflets/it5.pdf‎;

Care to tell us who your employer is if you are so sure? Hiding BIKs is a serious offense. You are required to declare the health insurance premium to revenue and will be subject to adjustments on back taxes.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/benefit-in-kind/faqs/miscellaneous.html

You must pay paye and prsi on the insurance. You can then apply for available tax credits depending on premium value

Geuze · 21-02-2014 07:53PM

Tazz T wrote: »

It's essentially a new tax to pay for healthcare. Ridiculous.

He seems to be omitting the fact that we already pay this through PRSI. Will this be cut?

Note that PRSI is social insurance, not health insurance.

It does not cover healthcare, except for limited dental and optical benefits.

Healthcare is mainly tax-financed in Ireland.

Geuze · 21-02-2014 07:55PM

noodler wrote: »

Reilly, in his opinion piece in the Time on Tuesday, was adamant that this would not cost more than our current system (HSE spend plus what people spend on private health insurance).

The point is always raised that these systems are expensive as other countries have found outthem but Reilly quoted public policy in the article who apparently argue that other countries incur these costs due to their elss than favourable demographics which is less of a concern for us in the immediate future.

Like Uriel, I look forward to the White Paper's publication.

If we all have UHI, you could argue that it will cause latent demand for healthcare to arise.

What I mean here is that a change in the financing system, could itself lead to more activity.

So we could end up spending more on healthcare, maybe.

Geuze · 21-02-2014 07:56PM

daheff wrote: »

N

I heard on the radio that people would be paying 1600 per person per year for the private health insurance. I dont pay that now ....why am I going to pay MORE for this? Will my other taxes drop by the same amount to compensate for the fact that health is being funded differently? I dont see that happening. This looks (to me) to be the next step

Yes, taxes should fall as tax-financed healthcare is replaced by UHI-financed healthcare spending.

Geuze · 21-02-2014 07:57PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I have 3 severe pre-existing medical conditions, who exactly do they think will give me health insurance? If they push this through they will never be re-elected. This smacks of giving people a worst case scenario, then introducing something less severe in the hope that people will accept it.

It's universal, nobody can be refused cover.

Geuze · 21-02-2014 07:59PM

Temptamperu wrote: »

Instead of buying expensive insurance why dont we just put it in taxes and have a NHS like system. Why is the middle man so important?

Yes, a tax-financed system is an alternative to UHI.

But that is what we have already.

Except that 40% of people choose to buy top-up health insurance to allow them skip the queue.

What we could do is improve the public health system so much that people don't buy health insurance.

Or ban private health insurance?

Geuze · 21-02-2014 08:00PM

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I can't see how they could legally force private health insurance on people on low incomes or benefits. I would imagine that if they start deducting money from benefit payments that someone would mount a successful legal challenge to it. It all just seems so nonsensical. I don't really know what to make of it

Note that in every counrty with compulsory insurance, e.g. France, Germany, etc., the State pays the premium of poor people.

Geuze · 21-02-2014 08:03PM

For comparison, here is a quick guide to the German system = social health ins

200+ insurers, all not-for-profit mutual insurers

Premium is approx 15.5% of wages up to 48,600, approx half paid by employee, half by employer

So max premium is 7533 pa.

The worker pays roughly half, so max of 3700 approx., if earning 50k.

Note that I think your kids are covered by parents premium.

Note that if you earn 20k or 30k, you are being subsidised by the higher earners.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 21-02-2014 08:08PM

PLUG71 wrote: »

According to the radio if we do not buy our own cover it will be stopped at source!

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/reilly-s-proposals-would-radically-change-the-irish-healthcare-system-1.1699344

MODS:- Please move if this is in the incorrect place!

I wouldn't have a problem with it if it were being done to provide people with proper health service but they have to fix the health service and the criminal waste of taxpayers money that is horsed into it to pay for unnecessary administration (I use the word loosely) staff who essentially do nothing worthwhile before they can implement such a plan.

MadsL · 21-02-2014 08:12PM

Push Pop wrote: »

His is copying Obamacare! Come up with your own ideas O'Reilly, surely you can do that.

O'ReillyCare?

Geuze · 21-02-2014 08:14PM

Under UHI hospitals will be paid per treatment, not a block grant.

So they will face huge incentives to reduce waste and costs, and provide better services.

By moving to "money-follows-the-patient" UHI, then each hosp becomes more like a business wanting to provide better services to get more patients.

darkpagandeath · 21-02-2014 08:17PM

Geuze wrote: »

Under UHI hospitals will be paid per treatment, not a block grant.

So they will face huge incentives to reduce waste and costs, and provide better services.

By moving to "money-follows-the-patient" UHI, then each hosp becomes more like a business wanting to provide better services to get more patients.

What could possibly go wrong ... Something something HSE

wil · 21-02-2014 08:18PM

A little confused by the photo, could they not show a photo from an Irish hospital or are they eschewing the Korean model of health system?

At the end of the day, someone has to pay for whatever system we use.
Under the risk related basis will there be waiting periods or pre-existing conditions for supplementary insurance or will time served on existing insurance count?

Dyr · 21-02-2014 08:24PM

Im not opposed to this at all but because this is ireland we will wind up with a worst of both worlds system that by a strange coincidence will put a lot of money in the hands of the medical profession and insurers

Andy-Pandy · 21-02-2014 08:27PM

My guess is that instead of some waiting lists being, for example, a 1.5 years wait for a Mri for public patients, everybody would have to wait a year. If it worked it would be great, but going buy how much is wasted at the moment in our health system throwing more money at it ain't going to get the best results.

anncoates · 21-02-2014 08:28PM

Maybe best to look at providing a functioning health service before forcing people to take our insurance for it.

woodoo · 21-02-2014 09:25PM

Andy-Pandy wrote: »

My guess is that instead of some waiting lists being, for example, a 1.5 years wait for a Mri for public patients, everybody would have to wait a year. If it worked it would be great, but going buy how much is wasted at the moment in our health system throwing more money at it ain't going to get the best results.

Any other modern country would be outraged at waiting even a year. They would get the MRI in weeks max.

Smidge · 21-02-2014 10:05PM

Temptamperu wrote: »

Instead of buying expensive insurance why dont we just put it in taxes and have a NHS like system. Why is the middle man so important?

This is exactly the point!
Say what you like but the NHS is a pretty decent healthcare model.
So why look to the "Dutch" model?
I'll tell you why, because it is making people/insurance companies very wealthy.
I have discussed this with my Dutch friends on several occasions and here is what they tell me.

The new system there SUCKS.
They had a much better/fairer/cheaper health service before this came in over there.
My friends are paying well over twice what they were paying before(if I remember correctly they are paying for 2+2 about 480 euros pm)

And the services are now half what they used to get.
Physio....no longer covered
Dental....no longer covered
Optical...no longer covered
Far too many too list.

And as for a two tier system?
Think its bad here now, wait till this comes in.
It works like "credits" so the more money you pay for your policy the more credits you get.
So the better dr and hosp and services have higher credits.
And you can forget about it if you get cancer etc.

Makes more money for "the man" though :mad:

daheff · 21-02-2014 10:21PM

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, taxes should fall as tax-financed healthcare is replaced by UHI-financed healthcare spending.

The key word in your post is "should". Will it? Will it hell!

I'm not against a state health system...I think the state should look after its citizens. It should be equal & fair. Once they brought in private health ins that went out the window.

We can't run a health system here. There are too many vested interests. Adding in private for profit companies makes it less likely to be run efficiently (because they add to the cost by taking a profit from your premium).

We should get the Germans/Scandinavians in to run out health service.

21-02-2014 10:23PM

What a joke

ffs

Mandatory health insurance? Jack up the prices, because you have to pay by law. Will it stop VHI and their insane annual increases, will it fcuk.
Meanwhile there's still massive inefficiencies, and hospitals having to try and do private fund raising.

Dravokivich · 21-02-2014 10:53PM

Have they looked into why people dont sign up to private health insurance? There's more to it than "we just didnt." Soon enough im not going to be able to affordd to go to work if they keep on finding things to use to take money from me.

Photo-Sniper · 21-02-2014 10:57PM

bluewolf wrote: »

What a joke

ffs

Mandatory health insurance? Jack up the prices, because you have to pay by law. Will it stop VHI and their insane annual increases, will it fcuk.
Meanwhile there's still massive inefficiencies, and hospitals having to try and do private fund raising.

Been living in Germany over 2 years with this system and its fantastic. Work pays for it although they have too unless you make under a certain wage.

Doctors visits, dental visits (except when you need porcelain caps etc), most medicine all free once my insurance is paid.

Its a really great system.

21-02-2014 11:08PM

Photo-Sniper wrote: »

Been living in Germany over 2 years with this system and its fantastic. Work pays for it although they have too unless you make under a certain wage.

Doctors visits, dental visits (except when you need porcelain caps etc), most medicine all free once my insurance is paid.

Its a really great system.

Maybe so. But not with the current set up

Can you afford this?

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