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Why don't we riot like mad ejits

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Comments

  • #212
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Well I agree with you here in any case - but the problem is, Germany is so stubborn on blocking all reform, that we are faced with sticking with our current economic policies (which will lead to Europe imploding eventually, as it's just not sustainable), or a Euro exit (disastrous), or looking at alternative policies that we can take initiative with locally.

    In every case here, Germany is the problem, blocking reform.

    It is, in my view, indisputable that the very structure of the Euro, was guaranteed to cause this deadlock, and that there is no way of avoiding the share of blame for this terribly implemented currency - and blame for all of the consequences - being shared with all of Europe.

    It was the responsibility of those constructing the system supporting the Euro, to put in place adequate regulations at a central EU level, for preventing the financial speculators from imploding our financial systems.

    One almost unthinkable option might be to ask Germany to leave the Eurozone and just go with the rest of the members. It would eventually find its feet.

    It could actually work better with a bunch of middle sized countries and possibly even be more attractive to the UK coming on board if it proved to be more in-line with British economic cycles.

    Only risk is that France might end up being dominant but they're a lot more benign economically than Germany in many ways.


  • #213
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    The Germans are actually that fearful of inflation.
    They had a very long period of relative price stability and quite tight management of inflation after WWII and they'd argue that it's what made Germany strong.

    I'd argue that Germany's strength was actually the fact that it had huge industrial capabilities and a long-standing culture of engineering and technology that put it back into good form very quickly after WWII despite having being flattened and that their inflation control policies may have had little to do with their success at all. They actually had a huge amount of stuff to export and a market that was willing to buy it all over the world.

    If anything Germans totally overstate their economic policies in their success story - it was almost totally about industry and tech.

    Ireland on the other hand had a period of very steep inflation after WWII (in exact line with the UK).

    So, the mentality here was : buy something you can barely afford (house at some crazy price) ... mortgage to your back teeth and within 10-20 years you'll have a tiny mortgage and a big pot of cash as it'll have been inflated away.

    That has been the history here and that's what most of our parents and possibly even grandparents (if they were buying property in the 1950s-60s) saw.

    So, for Irish speculators, the bubble seemed normal.

    The reality was the rules had changed.
    That is wrong - when you have a country claiming to be fearful of inflation, to the point that deflation is preferred, then that is a position no credible economist will take - it is just nonsense.

    Yes Germany have a strong export market: It is stronger now, because the crisis is holding back all other EU countries economic activity and exports; huge advantage for Germany.

    This is a far far more plausible reason for the German government to effectively block all reform, than a mythical fear of inflation (that today looks more like a desire for deflation - which again is beneficial to Germany in terms of exports, as it disproportionately affects the rest of the EU, less so Germany).


  • #214
    Hedge11
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 48 ✭Hedge11


    kult wrote: »
    watch when you sau MEFO bills - it is another conspiracy theory...

    No, documented history is NOT conspiracy theory.


  • #215
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    KyussBishop wrote: »
    That is wrong - when you have a country claiming to be fearful of inflation, to the point that deflation is preferred, then that is a position no credible economist will take - it is just nonsense.

    Yes Germany have a strong export market: It is stronger now, because the crisis is holding back all other EU countries economic activity and exports; huge advantage for Germany.

    This is a far far more plausible reason for the German government to effectively block all reform, than a mythical fear of inflation (that today looks more like a desire for deflation - which again is beneficial to Germany in terms of exports, as it disproportionately affects the rest of the EU, less so Germany).

    Having spoken to a lot of German academics over the years, I think they've actually got a rather high-handed and somewhat patronising notion that they can spread the German economic model to the less stable countries of Europe.

    They see their model as having been a roaring success and can't see why everyone else doesn't just do exactly the same. Then ignore the fact that the rest of Europe doesn't have the same level of dependence on industrial exports and high-tech exports and could be depending on totally different economic areas - financial services & attracting FDI : (UK, Benelux and Ireland), tourism (many Med countries), agribusiness (France in a big way) etc.

    I'm not so sure that it's all that macabre, they just think they're right and that everyone else is doing it wrong!

    I honestly don't think it's all that much about self-serving self-interest and more about just oversimplification and not understanding how European economies actually work.


  • #216
    fr336
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,179 ✭✭✭✭fr336


    Careful%20Now.jpg


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  • #217
    kult
    Closed Accounts Posts: 372 ✭✭kult


    Hedge11 wrote: »
    No, documented history is NOT conspiracy theory.


    20 years ago when I was talking to friends about that they said it was conspiracy, till it appeared on wiki... so I take corrections all the time now... because in next 20 years a lot of things will come out what "was a conspiracy today"


  • #218
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    The big concern I would have is that if the German model starts to crumble, we going to have a big problem - i.e. a crumbling, stubborn economic power house that has kept the rest of Europe in a mess for no logical reason.

    Many of Germany's economic strengths are in difficult-to-replace exports, particularly high tech machinery, big infrastructure tech, other tech equipment and cars etc.

    Japan and the US have been floundering for the last 10-15+ years but they're starting to wake up. Japan in particular competes directly with Germany in all those areas and the US does too in many of them.

    You've also now got a very competent and emerged South Korea which is huge in those areas and China's largely now moving towards a situation where it won't really need to import German, Japanese, French, US or any other technologies as it's starting to be very capable itself.

    So, one could see the current high demand for German products starting to fall off.

    In the Chinese case, take a company like Huawei. It's suddenly emerged as one of the global players in telecommunications gear. So, China's now suddenly gone from a situation where they needed Alcatel, Siemens, Cisco etc to one where their major player's now one of the world's leading suppliers of that kind of gear and is at the cutting edge of R&D.

    South Korea's suddenly also now taken over as the new Japan. Samsung, LG, Hyundai etc are huge and the country has massive dominance in technology that really matters at the moment like LED and LCD flat panel displays, chip-manufacturing etc

    Germany is actually relatively weak in that kind of tech.


  • #219
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    kult wrote: »
    20 years ago when I was talking to friends about that they said it was conspiracy, till it appeared on wiki... so I take corrections all the time now... because in next 20 years a lot of things will come out what "was a conspiracy today"

    As much as I generally dislike conspiracy theories....sometimes, they've been spot on. After enough time has passed, people just remember the fact, not that it was considered a crackpot theory at the time.


  • #220
    kult
    Closed Accounts Posts: 372 ✭✭kult


    UCDVet wrote: »
    As much as I generally dislike conspiracy theories....sometimes, they've been spot on. After enough time has passed, people just remember the fact, not that it was considered a crackpot theory at the time.

    Believe or not but I hate conspiracy theories, but after 20, sometimes 30years 90% of them are the truth, and it's sad, however what even sadder, people still do not wake up...


  • #221
    Nonoperational
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭Nonoperational


    kult wrote: »
    Believe or not but I hate conspiracy theories, but after 20, sometimes 30years 90% of them are the truth, and it's sad, however what even sadder, people still do not wake up...

    Could you give some examples of conspiracy theories that have been shown to be true?


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  • #222
    Hedge11
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 48 ✭Hedge11


    kult wrote: »
    20 years ago when I was talking to friends about that they said it was conspiracy, till it appeared on wiki... so I take corrections all the time now... because in next 20 years a lot of things will come out what "was a conspiracy today"

    The mefo thing isn't exactly outlandish though. Just a financial smokescreen. It's not like the Nazis weren't just a bunch of gangsters or anything.


  • #223
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I don't really buy the conspiracy theory stuff.

    People are quite capable of being complete frigging idiots without any conspiracy !


  • #224
    kult
    Closed Accounts Posts: 372 ✭✭kult


    Hedge11 wrote: »
    The mefo thing isn't exactly outlandish though. Just a financial smokescreen. It's not like the Nazis weren't just a bunch of gangsters or anything.

    They were sponsored by Mr Ford too...and many different people who wanted that war to make money on it:/


  • #225
    Hedge11
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 48 ✭Hedge11


    Well, the racial/cultural views of "Mr. Ford" & his ilk were well known at the time. No conspiracy or coverup there.


  • #226
    kult
    Closed Accounts Posts: 372 ✭✭kult


    Hedge11 wrote: »
    Well, the racial/cultural views of "Mr. Ford" & his ilk were well known at the time. No conspiracy or coverup there.

    100% agree, but if you said that 20-25 years ago, when this fact was not so well known to population, you would be called a conspiracy theory guy. This is the point I am making, people make the same mistakes all the time and do not believe in obvious things, which in time come out as truth but people still tend to ignore it and do not learn from it at all.


  • #227
    Hedge11
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 48 ✭Hedge11


    kult wrote: »
    100% agree, but if you said that 20-25 years ago, when this fact was not so well known to population, you would be called a conspiracy theory guy. This is the point I am making, people make the same mistakes all the time and do not believe in obvious things, which in time come out as truth but people still tend to ignore it and do not learn from it at all.

    I don't think there was ever any doubt that there was anti-Semitic & anti-communist feeling among early 20th century US industrialists ...


  • #228
    kult
    Closed Accounts Posts: 372 ✭✭kult


    Hedge11 wrote: »
    I don't think there was ever any doubt that there was anti-Semitic & anti-communist feeling among early 20th century US industrialists ...

    now it is pro semitic:) they have to be , otherwise FED will destroy them like in big fake recession they created nearly 90 years ago:)


  • #229
    Foxhound38
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    Sorry lads, I think most people realised it was actually our own speculative sector and its political and media fanboys that inflated and crashed the economy, not some weird outside agencies of any type. The outside agencies just got in on the action with handing our speculators vast amounts of loans as they were all was 'chasing the dream' of a quick buck.

    One thing about Ireland that I notice is actually a strength and a weakness is we tend to be quite capable of washing our dirty linen in public when something does come out in the open eventually.

    A lot of other cultures try to find outsiders to blame for any major problem - immigrants, minority groups like the Jewish community in the past, global conspiracy theories. The Greeks are blaming Angela Merkel and the EU for what was effectively their own establishment's fiscal and financial mismanagement. Yeah, the EU didn't rescue them to the level they might have liked and yeah the EU's policies acted a bit like an accelerant but there was no outsiders trying to wreck Greece, on the contrary they tried to rescue it with billions and billions of Euro.

    Unfortunately, it was our own home-grown speculators that wrecked the place and I think the vast majority of us understand that fully.

    The weakness is that we tend to then go into some kind of weird self-flagellation mode and start wallowing in a combination of self pity and slagging ourselves off.

    The amount of times I heard/read people going on about how "oh we can't govern ourselves" and all this utter drivel was quite disturbing.

    I think though that's why we're not having riots. We know exactly what happened.

    The most important thing we need to do now is get ourselves back into some degree of normality and respectability and stop with the depressing self-harm stuff and keep an eye out for any more half-wit speculator fanboys/girls trying to inflate more bubbles.

    The world moves on!

    Lesson learnt : More transparency, more vigilance & keep certain types of politicians on a very short leash ! (and I'm not being party political in saying that - it applies to several parties!)

    A rare glimpse of sense in a rather insane thread, methinks


  • #230
    Jonny7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    kult wrote: »
    now it is pro semitic:) they have to be , otherwise FED will destroy them like in big fake recession they created nearly 90 years ago:)

    Tell us more about another one of your conspiracy theories :)

    Are there Jews in this one? I have my money on ze Jews involved somewhere, that or the Rothschilds


  • #231
    kult
    Closed Accounts Posts: 372 ✭✭kult


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    Tell us more about another one of your conspiracy theories :)

    Are there Jews in this one? I have my money on ze Jews involved somewhere, that or the Rothschilds


    hahaha you did not understand what I said haha

    anyway, who is in control of FED and banks...not jews, but you would know:D


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  • #232
    fr336
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,179 ✭✭✭✭fr336


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    Tell us more about another one of your conspiracy theories :)

    Are there Jews in this one? I have my money on ze Jews involved somewhere, that or the Rothschilds

    Why are you belittling the user in this way? They don't know for sure, but neither do you. I can understand people choosing not to believe something, and that is course absolutely fine, but why so keen to shut down any discussion on it? What purpose does it serve you? Or don't you even know you're so used to doing it and seeing others do it? Reported.


  • #233
    Jonny7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    kult wrote: »
    hahaha you did not understand what I said haha

    anyway, who is in control of FED and banks...not jews, but you would know:D

    Go on, tell us..


  • #234
    kult
    Closed Accounts Posts: 372 ✭✭kult


    fr336 wrote: »
    Why are you belittling the user in this way? They don't know for sure, but neither do you. I can understand people choosing not to believe something, and that is course absolutely fine, but why so keen to shut down any discussion on it? What purpose does it serve you? Or don't you even know you're so used to doing it and seeing others do it? Reported.

    leave him, he is just half brain not awaken yet child, like a troll, that's fine with me:)


  • #235
    Foxhound38
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    kult wrote: »
    The plan is and always was: get countries into a huge debt, crush the economy and make people slaves , and it's working. We are all slaves to the system which squeezes out more and more of us... some of us just do not realize this just yet...and euro zone is a total failure, always was, even at the very beginning...

    Have they been on the phone about that honourary PhD in Politics and Economics yet? :rolleyes:

    Who's plan are you talking about exactly?


  • #236
    kult
    Closed Accounts Posts: 372 ✭✭kult


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    Go on, tell us..
    I will not entertain you , no point, you will deny anything so I will just ignore you, and actually I have to work now so unfollow, keep living in your dreams my darling:D


  • #237
    Hedge11
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 48 ✭Hedge11


    kult wrote: »
    now it is pro semitic:) they have to be , otherwise FED will destroy them like in big fake recession they created nearly 90 years ago:)

    What's FED? Federal something-or-other?


  • #238
    fr336
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,179 ✭✭✭✭fr336


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    Have they been on the phone about that honourary PhD in Politics and Economics yet? :rolleyes:

    Who's plan are you talking about exactly?

    Whose*


  • #239
    Foxhound38
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    DistanceVector wrote: »
    Take away the dole and Sky sports and there would be a second Republic in a week.

    It is about time we got off our fat complacent arses and threw some of this sh1t back at the govt.

    Are you at the Dail with a bag full of Molotov Cocktails yet, or are you just referring to my complacent ar$e?


  • #240
    fr336
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,179 ✭✭✭✭fr336


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    Are you at the Dail with a bag full of Molotov Cocktails yet, or are you just referring to my complacent ar$e?

    Even if they were being a hypocrite (which I doubt), that wouldn't make what they said any less true. Why are some people so keen to maintain a status quo and not even have the least bit of simple discussion? Obviously there's not government employees on forums everywhere, least of all boards :pac:, which makes it even more bizarre in my eyes :D


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  • #241
    Hedge11
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 48 ✭Hedge11


    fr336 wrote: »
    Reported.
    fr336 wrote: »
    Whose*

    Language Nazism. Reported*


    *I wouldn't be such a tit. Well, I wouldn't seriously put "reported" in a post.


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