Insensitive comments by judge

Tombo2001 · 18-02-2014 01:57PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

What is it about the judiciary and sex crimes in this country?

At least we're not in India.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 18-02-2014 01:59PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

At least we're not in India.

so what, like wtf has that to do with it?

strandroad · 18-02-2014 02:01PM

She is foreign and most likely was not accustomed with the usual rhetoric of Irish victim impact statements as they not standard around the world. I suppose that for this judge if he did not see the usual "my life has been shattered beyond repair and I dread going to sleep at night" she must have seemed callous or unaffected.

Never understood how the "who can write the most dramatic statement" contest can have impact on the verdict anyway. You judge the deed, not how outspoken the victim is.

Tombo2001 · 18-02-2014 02:01PM

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

so what, like wtf has that to do with it?

Indian judges have a notoriously lax attitude to sex crimes.

Thats what it has to do with it.

If my comment was 'I might have ice cream for dessert' I might see where you are getting your 'wtf's from.

As it is, my point is relevant.

DeanAustin · 18-02-2014 02:03PM

mhge wrote: »

She is foreign and most likely was not accustomed with the usual rhetoric of Irish victim impact statements as they not standard around the world. I suppose that for this judge if he did not see the usual "my life has been shattered beyond repair and I dread going to sleep at night" she must have seemed callous or unaffected.

Never understood how the "who can write the most dramatic statement" contest can have impact on the verdict anyway. You judge the deed, not how outspoken the victim is.

And the judge did "judge the deed" by locking this fella up when it seems that both he and his victim would have been happy for him to remain a free man whilst paying compensation.

Snickers Man · 18-02-2014 02:08PM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

In general the Irish Times appear to have done a terrible job here with their selective quotes from the judges sentencing speech. It appears to be just random phrases taken from it, with absolutely no context given or whether they relate to something the judge had referred previously.

In fairness, newspapers have to be very careful wrt libel and defamation laws (don't mention Pantigate) when dealing with issues of this kind.

Read through the Irish Times report of the event carefully and think for yourself what MIGHT have happened here.

Bare facts: man accosts immigrant woman in street. They get into a car and drive to a house. They have sex. He reckons its consensual. He gives her €50. What does that sound like to you?

Woman later has regrets and makes a complaint.

I'm not inferring anything from these facts as reported in the paper. I wouldn't dare. There are many possible explanations for what happened that fit the facts we have been allowed to know.

As Sir Thomas More said in A Man For All Seasons "The world must construe according to its wits; this court must construe according to the law"

Gyalist · 18-02-2014 02:10PM

You know, over the years I've helped a few non-Irish people who had serious crimes committed against them. These are often people with little or no command of the language, thousands of miles away from home and any support systems, terrified that if they report the crimes that it would count against them when trying to renew their visas, or used to corrupt officials in their home countries who won't help them and therefore feel that their experience here would be the same.

Reading the reported comments of the judge and the mental gymnastics by some of the posters on this thread trying to justify what he said makes me realise that their fears were not altogether unfounded.

suicide_circus · 18-02-2014 02:10PM

If Judge Barry White saved your life or got you back with your ex-wife..

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 18-02-2014 02:12PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Indian judges have a notoriously lax attitude to sex crimes.

Thats what it has to do with it.

If my comment was 'I might have ice cream for dessert' I might see where you are getting your 'wtf's from.

As it is, my point is relevant.

You point is wholly irrelevant.
We are talking about Irish judges and their overly lax attitudes to violent crimes against women, no amount of pathetic attempts at deflection can take away from that fact.
BTW An Indian Judge recently sentenced 4 men to death by hanging for rape, hardly lax!

seamus · 18-02-2014 02:12PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Anyone who says rape doesn't have a psychological impact on a victim has a deeply sh*t view of the subject.

So you read the victim impact statement then? What did it say?

FTA69 · 18-02-2014 02:14PM

seamus wrote: »

So you read the victim impact statement then? What did it say?

I doubt it said "I was raped but sure I'm grand now." You seem to be suggesting that some people can be raped with little effect being had on them.

My name is URL · 18-02-2014 02:17PM

FTA69 wrote: »

I doubt it said "I was raped but sure I'm grand now." You seem to be suggesting that some people can be raped with little effect being had on them.

Do you think it affects everyone in the same way?

suicide_circus · 18-02-2014 02:19PM

judging by barry's comments I imagine the victim spent the majority of th VIS talking about compensation. I heard on rte radio this morning that civil/criminal proceedings happen simultaneously in brazil and victim statements tend to focus on demands for cash which probably sat weirdly with an irish court. maybe the victim was poorly advised in this regard.

seamus · 18-02-2014 02:23PM

FTA69 wrote: »

I doubt it said "I was raped but sure I'm grand now." You seem to be suggesting that some people can be raped with little effect being had on them.

Yeah, why not? Events have different effects on different people.
Some people get burgled and spend years in fear of being home alone, whereas others just get on with it and don't really think about it. One person get beaten up on their way home and chalk it down as "**** happens", whereas another person might develop crippling agoraphobia.

Is rape a deeply invasive crime? Sure. But depending on a person's upbringing and culture, the effect it will have will differ.

It's insanely closed-minded to think that the effect of a rape is the exact same on everyone and that everyone who is raped is inconsolably devastated by it. It's just safe to start from that assumption when dealing with a victim.

But without knowing the content of the victim impact statement, you're literally just making stuff up about the impact on this victim. Or you're suggesting that the judge is making stuff up?

judging by barry's comments I imagine the victim spent the majority of th VIS talking about compensation. I heard on rte radio this morning that civil/criminal proceedings happen simultaneously in brazil and victim statements tend to focus on demands for cash which probably sat weirdly with an irish court. maybe the victim was poorly advised in this regard.

That's interesting. If that was the case, it certainly would look odd to an Irish judge.

Tombo2001 · 18-02-2014 02:31PM

seamus wrote: »

It's insanely closed-minded to think that the effect of a rape is the exact same on everyone and that everyone who is raped is inconsolably devastated by it. It's just safe to start from that assumption when dealing with a victim.

.

Thats a strawman Seamus.

The point here is not whether the woman in question is deeply traumatised or not, or whether everyone is affected by rape in the same way.

The point is that the judge is not in a position to draw a conclusion on it, regardless of what reports have been drawn up or what the victim impact says, and shouldnt do so publicly.

seamus · 18-02-2014 02:34PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The point is that the judge is not in a position to draw a conclusion on it, regardless of what reports have been drawn up or what the victim impact says, and shouldnt do so publicly.

You are not in a position to draw that conclusion without seeing the victim impact statement. For all you know she did write, "I'm OK, it's not that big a deal".

You are telling us how the victim must feel, with zero information whatsoever.

The depressing part about this is that Judge White has been a good guy in this; he turned down all attempts at compensation and said that the attacker couldn't buy his way out of jail time. That's a huge shift in attitude from other judges who have allowed rapists off with suspended sentences in exchange for cash.

Instead, he makes an off-the-cuff minor remark - which clearly didn't have any factor in his sentencing - and some people are up in arms.

Recognise the actual win that's in this case, stop searching for things so that you can be offended by proxy.

FTA69 · 18-02-2014 02:36PM

Yeah, why not? Events have different effects on different people.

Because rape is universally accepted as being one of the most traumatic things that can be inflicted on a person. A person's ability to overcome that injury doesn't negate the effect it initially had on them.

It's insanely closed-minded to think that the effect of a rape is the exact same on everyone and that everyone who is raped is inconsolably devastated by it. It's just safe to start from that assumption when dealing with a victim.

It's safe to say that it would have a profound effect on someone, the same way losing a loved one or suffering a bereavement would have a profound effect in someone. The judge here seems to be trivialising the incident entirely based on one letter.

Or you're suggesting that the judge is making stuff up?

I'm saying the judge has a terrible attitude toward this particular victim, unfortunately it's an attitude that has been displayed time and time again by many men in authority when dealing with rape cases.

Tombo2001 · 18-02-2014 02:38PM

seamus wrote: »

You are not in a position to draw that conclusion without seeing the victim impact statement. For all you know she did write, "I'm OK, it's not that big a deal".

You are telling us how the victim must feel, with zero information whatsoever.

Exactly the opposite.

I have reached no conclusion on the actual victim impact, and I am saying the judge shouldnt have either.

seamus · 18-02-2014 02:43PM

FTA69 wrote: »

It's safe to say that it would have a profound effect on someone, the same way losing a loved one or suffering a bereavement would have a profound effect in someone. The judge here seems to be trivialising the incident entirely based on one letter.

Some people are unaffected by bereavement. In fact, some people feel relief. There is no one-emotion-fits-all here. You seem to be blowing an off-the-cuff remark out of all proportion based on your personal idealised version of events.

I'm saying the judge has a terrible attitude toward this particular victim, unfortunately it's an attitude that has been displayed time and time again by many men in authority when dealing with rape cases.

So he tells the man that he can't buy his way out of this crime and sends him to jail for 3.5 years, and you think that the judge has a terrible attitude towards rape? What did you want? A public flogging? Castration?

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I have reached no conclusion on the actual victim impact, and I am saying the judge shouldnt have either.

So what's the point in victim impact statements if judges shouldn't use them to draw conclusions?

FTA69 · 18-02-2014 03:00PM

seamus wrote: »

There is no one-emotion-fits-all here. You seem to be blowing an off-the-cuff remark out of all proportion based on your personal idealised version of events

I have no idealised version, I'm of the opinion that rape will have a profoundly negative impact on anyone subjected to it and that your suggestion that people would be able to just brush it off is total nonsense.

So he tells the man that he can't buy his way out of this crime and sends him to jail for 3.5 years, and you think that the judge has a terrible attitude towards rape?

That's an absurdly low sentence for rape. And yes, his publically referring to the victim as some sort of money-grabber who wasn't really that put out by a rape is an archaic and deeply flawed view of the subject.

18-02-2014 03:24PM

seamus wrote: »

Is rape a deeply invasive crime? Sure. But depending on a person's upbringing and culture, the effect it will have will differ.

As well as that, someone in the thread said "...this is why rape is seen as one of the most serious crimes". The original view of rape as being so serious had nothing to do with the impact on the victim (when female) and all to do with her "value" to the community/her family.

Whatever the context the comments were probably insensitive and needless and the sentence too short IMO. This constant projection by certain groups that insist that everyone either feels the same as them or should is getting really tired.

Snickers Man · 18-02-2014 05:44PM

Gyalist wrote: »

What an outrageous comment by the judge! It is as if he believes that the victim somehow tricked the defendant into raping her.

Or it could be that the man misread the situation. Which, given what we know about the facts from the newspaper report, is at least a possibility.

woodoo · 18-02-2014 08:57PM

He should have ordered the 10,000 to be sent to the victim and still jailed him for the 7 and half years.

Insensitive comments by judge

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