Swiftway - Bus Rapid Transit (BRT)

bk · 15-02-2014 04:33PM

AlekSmart wrote: »

THAT mind-set,more than anything else remains the greatest barrier to progress in Irish Public Transport,and to paraphrase another Politician..."It has'nt gone away,y'know" :mad:

Alek, Unfortunately that sort of thinking is also very prevalent in CIE.

Just look at the way IR cut up and destroyed perfectly serviceable Mark 3 carriages (needing just a mid life refurbishment) and replaced them with the inferior Mark 4 carriages, while much older Mark 3's continue to be used all over the UK!!

In fairness, I actually see the NTA as the first time we have an organisation who actually knows and is doing public transport well in this country.

Just look at the success of the Luas and private intercity bus services and the proper, transparent licensing of bus services. And that is despite all the opposition it receives, not getting enough powers from the government, opposition from CIE, opposition from Dublin Councils, opposition and interference from politicians. It is surprising they achieve anything.

Amirani · 15-02-2014 08:27PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would think so as well, but it still makes no sense. A lack of joined up thinking. It would have provided the missing link from the green line to the Dart. It could not have cost much extra and would provide a good link upto Sandyford and Dundrum.

Luas shouldn't have been extended as far as Brides Glen, it's too remote and not densely populated enough for a tram system like Luas. However, if going to Brides Glen was a given, absolutely it should have connected with DART at Shankill.

LXFlyer · 15-02-2014 09:43PM

bk wrote: »

Alek, Unfortunately that sort of thinking is also very prevalent in CIE.

Just look at the way IR cut up and destroyed perfectly serviceable Mark 3 carriages (needing just a mid life refurbishment) and replaced them with the inferior Mark 4 carriages, while much older Mark 3's continue to be used all over the UK!!

In fairness, I actually see the NTA as the first time we have an organisation who actually knows and is doing public transport well in this country.

Just look at the success of the Luas and private intercity bus services and the proper, transparent licensing of bus services. And that is despite all the opposition it receives, not getting enough powers from the government, opposition from CIE, opposition from Dublin Councils, opposition and interference from politicians. It is surprising they achieve anything.

I certainly recognise the work that the NTA are doing, and many of the improvements that they have introduced. The change from their predecessors at the DoT is like moving to a different planet.

Whilst there are undoubtedly a lot of deficiencies within the CIE group, I think that you certainly display a large bias by not recognising that the CIE group did actually make quite significant changes prior to the NTA being formed.

IE introduced:

Increased frequency on most intercity routes
Clockface scheduling where possible on most Intercity routes
Hourly Dublin/Cork services
Clockface DART services

Continued operation of the mark 3 sets would have required a guard on every train, along with shunter staff in each terminus station. Alternatively driving van trailers would have had to have been purchased from the UK where they are like hen's teeth, re-bogied and fully guage tested for the different Irish gauging.

The Mark 3 sets were put up for sale yet no UK operators purchased any.

The Mark 4 sets did not replace the Mark 3 sets - the ICR sets replaced them - and the reality is that they do have lower operating costs and now that they have been reformed, better flexibility in terms of fleet options.

Dublin Bus had already initiated

Cityswift / City Imp which gave a big boost to city bus operations only for DCC to switch off junction priority for buses
Network Direct network redesign
Clockface scheduling
AVLC control system rollout and initial work on RTPI

You have to also remember that DB were prevented for many years by political interference from any redesign of the network - every time they attempted to cancel/merge routes that were not carrying large numbers, a TD would intervene and the change would be stopped. One south Dublin FF politician at one stage said that as long as he was a TD the 48a would continue operating - despite the fact that most people were using either the 14 or the LUAS.

DB tried to introduce a 24 hour service on the 746 but were prevented from doing so by the DoT at the last minute - despite the same DoT funding the purchase of extra buses specifically for this.

DB tried to introduce a flat fare at the time of the EURO changeover but again were prevented from doing so by the DoT.

DB were prevented from introducing RTPI by the DoT ten years before it was finally approved to be rolled out, despite a fully successful trial being carried out, resulting in the lack of an effective control system for the same period.

The DoT and politicians prevented many sensible changes to all three organisations' services and also to many private operators' services, with the DoT sitting on applications for changes for several years on occasion.

To simply suggest that the CIE group did not either attempt to change their operations or indeed make changes is a very very simplistic view and really displays ignorance of the conditions within which public transport had to operate. It was subject to parish pump politics at their very worst.

Sam Russell · 16-02-2014 12:23PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

Luas shouldn't have been extended as far as Brides Glen, it's too remote and not densely populated enough for a tram system like Luas. However, if going to Brides Glen was a given, absolutely it should have connected with DART at Shankill.

Presumably the connection to Shankill could still be done. Anyone an idea of the cost?

Banjoxed · 16-02-2014 07:16PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Presumably the connection to Shankill could still be done. Anyone an idea of the cost?

There's already drafted plans to extend to Bray so put away the crayons folks. A chunk of original line to Shanganagh Junction has been built on so that's out.

Sam Russell · 16-02-2014 08:15PM

That's good to hear. But is it a draft plan that is on the shelf with all the other draft plans?

It would give a backfill on the line for people going from Bray direction to get to Sandyford annd Dundrum, and onto SSG.

MGWR · 16-02-2014 08:59PM

Banjoxed wrote: »

There's already drafted plans to extend to Bray so put away the crayons folks. A chunk of original line to Shanganagh Junction has been built on so that's out.

Where exactly? Still looks clear from the junction to Cherrywood Road, and the Luas could manoeuvre around onto that line given its (presumed?) advantage over DART with greater tolerance of tighter-radius curves. The current occupants of the old Shankill station may be a problem. (Then again, guess what: electrified light rail can be built underground if need be, albeit the costs being the same as building any railway underground. Hint as to not keeping the Luas on the surface in the city? never mind the numerous other extant examples of underground trams in cities?)

Draughted plans are not set in stone. How many times has the much-lauded (or much-vaunted?) Metro been altered? Remember when BRT was proposed for the Harcourt Street Line instead of any kind of rail?

Banjoxed · 16-02-2014 09:15PM

MGWR wrote: »

Where exactly? Still looks clear from the junction to Cherrywood Road, and the Luas could manoeuvre around onto that line given its (presumed?) advantage over DART with greater tolerance of tighter-radius curves. The current occupants of the old Shankill station may be a problem. (Then again, guess what: electrified light rail can be built underground if need be, albeit the costs being the same as building any railway underground. Hint as to not keeping the Luas on the surface in the city? never mind the numerous other extant examples of underground trams in cities?)

Draughted plans are not set in stone. How many times has the much-lauded (or much-vaunted?) Metro been altered? Remember when BRT was proposed for the Harcourt Street Line instead of any kind of rail?

There has been some detailed design, see the Linky link here: http://www.rpa.ie/en/projects/luas_bray_fassaroe/line_and_stop_design/Pages/default.aspx

As for plans not set in stone, as remarked by Alek_Smart upthread, fluting around with plans has meant that we get too little and too late.

end of the road · 16-02-2014 09:59PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Continued operation of the mark 3 sets would have required a guard on every train, along with shunter staff in each terminus station.

no, they wouldn't have required shunters at every terminus station as they would only operate the cork and an increased belfast service, the pushpulls could have had tables fitted and operate an express service on the busiest train on the dublin waterford and dublin galway routes each way, so only shunters at belfast cork connolly platform 2 or 3 and hueston, or turn a couple of carriges into DBSO'S by adding cabs if possible.

lxflyer wrote: »

Alternatively driving van trailers would have had to have been purchased from the UK where they are like hen's teeth, re-bogied and fully guage tested for the different Irish gauging.

or as i suggested above a couple of the carriges could have had cabs built on and become DBSO'S if possible

lxflyer wrote: »

The Mark 3 sets were put up for sale yet no UK operators purchased any.

how long were they left out in supposed storage before that happened though?

lxflyer wrote: »

The Mark 4 sets did not replace the Mark 3 sets.

on the cork route yes they did

lxflyer wrote: »

the ICR sets replaced them

they were replacements for the mark 2 and cravens sets really

lxflyer wrote: »

the reality is that they do have lower operating costs

yeah, nobody on the trains apart from the driver a lot of the time except when revenue come on or the trolly service if your lucky to have one depending on what time train you get on a route, thats bad form for long distance services in my opinion

lxflyer wrote: »

now that they have been reformed, better flexibility in terms of fleet options.

i don't agree i'm afraid, if they were in sets of 2 or single carriges with gangways then i'd agree, but even with the current reformations some services are losing out, DMUS aren't as flexable when it comes to adding carriges as loco sets, but on quiet services that wouldn't be a problem

monument · 17-02-2014 03:11PM

Consultation and details on the NTA site today:

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/bus-rapid-transit/

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/public-consultations/current/public-consultation-on-bus-rapid-transit/

TheBandicoot · 17-02-2014 03:30PM

Not sure there's really any more information there then what we already knew. Just general routes but no indication of the exact amount of separation or artist impressions or indicative road layouts, or am I missing something?

the target journey time from Blanchardstown Town Centre to the City Centre will be about 35 minutes – a reduction of about one third or more from current bus journey times along this corridor.

That doesn't sound very impressive to me, this seems about the same as the 39a takes off peak anyway to get to Bachelor's Walk. Add on 10 minutes to get to the Town Centre from actual residential areas further west, plus walking/cycling/bus time to get to a BRT stop, and it's not a great improvement on either the 39a or the existing heavy rail option.

LXFlyer · 17-02-2014 03:35PM

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Not sure there's really any more information there then what we already knew. Just general routes but no indication of the exact amount of separation or artist impressions or indicative road layouts, or am I missing something?

You're not going to get detailed plans until an EIS is prepared, that's always the case with projects as this.

However, NOW is the time to raise whatever issues you have with each of the indicative routes so that they can be built into/addressed on the detailed plans that go forward to ABP.

TheBandicoot · 17-02-2014 03:39PM

lxflyer wrote: »

You're not going to get detailed plans until an EIS is prepared, that's always the case with projects as this.

However, NOW is the time to raise whatever issues you have with each of the indicative routes so that they can be built into/addressed on the detailed plans that go forward to ABP.

What if I don't want the project to have further money spent preparing a planning application before I see this detail?

I have no issue with the indicative routes. But I don't think they are fleshed out enough to enable me to make any other comment on the scheme. The route might be full of bottlenecks and shared-space lanes that will cause problems, but I can't know that at this level of abstraction.

LXFlyer · 17-02-2014 04:17PM

TheBandicoot wrote: »

What if I don't want the project to have further money spent preparing a planning application before I see this detail?

I have no issue with the indicative routes. But I don't think they are fleshed out enough to enable me to make any other comment on the scheme. The route might be full of bottlenecks and shared-space lanes that will cause problems, but I can't know that at this level of abstraction.

I think that the reality is that that level of detail is always at the planning stage. Go back to any of the LUAS plans and you'll see that was the case.

I would certainly however suggest that any regular commuter (or driver) on the three routes concerned would be familiar with the bottlenecks and/or special issues. It isn't that difficult to figure out.

What's needed is enough people bothered to raise them as part of the consultation process. Quite a few people moaned about the route tendering in Dublin here on Boards, but then didn't bother making a submission.

Godge · 17-02-2014 04:53PM

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Not sure there's really any more information there then what we already knew. Just general routes but no indication of the exact amount of separation or artist impressions or indicative road layouts, or am I missing something?

That doesn't sound very impressive to me, this seems about the same as the 39a takes off peak anyway to get to Bachelor's Walk. Add on 10 minutes to get to the Town Centre from actual residential areas further west, plus walking/cycling/bus time to get to a BRT stop, and it's not a great improvement on either the 39a or the existing heavy rail option.

I agree completely. Doesn't sound like any kind of improvement.

pclive · 17-02-2014 04:56PM

Please remember posting a comment on the project here is not making a submission. Please take the time to send in your ideas and observations via the official channels which can be found at http://www.nationaltransport.ie/public-consultations/current/public-consultation-on-bus-rapid-transit/

monument · 17-02-2014 05:27PM

There's still misconcptions flying about on this...

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Not sure there's really any more information there then what we already knew. Just general routes but no indication of the exact amount of separation or artist impressions or indicative road layouts, or am I missing something?

That doesn't sound very impressive to me, this seems about the same as the 39a takes off peak anyway to get to Bachelor's Walk. Add on 10 minutes to get to the Town Centre from actual residential areas further west, plus walking/cycling/bus time to get to a BRT stop, and it's not a great improvement on either the 39a or the existing heavy rail option.

Look at the maps I posted a page or so back, or the ones via the NTA page linked to in my last post -- the route does not start at Blanch town centre:

"The proposed services start in the vicinity of Beechfield Avenue in Ongar, and also adjacent to the Castlewood Estate in Huntstown, before serving Blanchardstown Town Centre. From Blanchardstown Town Centre, it runs along the N3 / Navan Road ...."

Why are you comparing off peak times of a less frequent service which runs fewer hours to what's planned?

TheBandicoot · 17-02-2014 06:28PM

monument wrote: »

Look at the maps I posted a page or so back, or the ones via the NTA page linked to in my last post -- the route does not start at Blanch town centre:

I know. That's not the point- the quote I posted is the journey time from the Town Centre. What don't you understand about it? 35 minutes from there to the 'City Centre' is about on par with the current bus service.

monument wrote: »

Why are you comparing off peak times of a less frequent service which runs fewer hours to what's planned?

I don't know what you mean by 'runs fewer hours', could you rephrase your grammar here?

And what's wrong with the comparison? As I see it, D.15 is stuck being an hour+/- 10 minutes away from the city centre no matter what mode you use. I want to see a proposal that makes a major cut in that journey time, and this BRT seems to me to only offer a very modest increase, if any at all- without detailed plans it is impossible to estimate accurately.

You will say the BRT is more frequent and reliable. Frankly since Network Direct and RTPI the 10 minute frequency of the 39a is great, really high quality and I have never had a problem with it. A better proposal would be to introduce the BRT improvements to the 39a in terms of infrastructure and ticketing. No need to come up with a whole new bloody ****ing brand for it- the NTA should work on improving the existing service in a cohesive way, building on the ND/RTPI improvments, instead of selling this Swiftway competing mode. I would rather see the money put into increasing the abysmal hourly frequency on the Maynooth line.

And I have not made a submission yet- I don't want the trouble of coming up with a fake name and email address, since I am not giving the NTA my real details, I don't trust that their DB won't be compromised in an attack and as a rule I aim for as much anonymity online as possible. TBH I should prob re-reg soon and stop using this account, building up too much context on it.

cdebru · 17-02-2014 07:17PM

TheBandicoot wrote: »

What if I don't want the project to have further money spent preparing a planning application before I see this detail?

I have no issue with the indicative routes. But I don't think they are fleshed out enough to enable me to make any other comment on the scheme. The route might be full of bottlenecks and shared-space lanes that will cause problems, but I can't know that at this level of abstraction.

The clongriffin to tallaght is going to be down the malahide road down the quays up patrick st and out through harolds cross, terenure, plenty of bottlenecks, pinch points, shared space to fill your boots without even looking at Swords and drumcondra, westland row, pearse st, etc etc.

cgcsb · 17-02-2014 08:57PM

So it seems that the BRT lane will be shared with conventional buses. I wonder will errant taxi drivers be banned? will they comply with the ban, etc.? Still no hints at centre of the road running. Infact the mock-ups seem to suggest side of road running. No indication of ticketing(same as luas, dublin bus, or new system?).

Idbatterim · 17-02-2014 09:10PM

typical Ireland, we wait years and years for a proper transport system, at this stage, whats another few years, E650,000,000 for this joke! The short sighted thinking here is unbelievable, things are blatantly on the up here, it should be spent on metro north, DU or both, this isnt 30-40 million we are talking about.

_Kaiser_ · 17-02-2014 09:43PM

So I WAS right before then that this is nothing more really than a hyped CitySwift 2.0 then?

Except this comes with an absurd price tag for very questionable returns.

Good ole Ireland, wha?

Idbatterim · 17-02-2014 10:11PM

when will the hearing for this take place? where can you object?

Banjoxed · 17-02-2014 10:19PM

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

So I WAS right before then that this is nothing more really than a hyped CitySwift 2.0 then?

Except this comes with an absurd price tag for very questionable returns.

Good ole Ireland, wha?

But it looks like Official Ireland is doing something, and that's the thing.

Filibuster · 17-02-2014 10:20PM

Could they have put the pictures up at a lower resolution??

The bus stops are going to have to be lengthed considerably to accomadate the bendy buses. I don't see this as a runner on the Navan Road.

[mod: please don't post such large images]

And why isn't the RPA running this, I thought they were the quango in charge of BRT.

AlekSmart · 17-02-2014 11:41PM

TheBandicoot wrote: »

You will say the BRT is more frequent and reliable. Frankly since Network Direct and RTPI the 10 minute frequency of the 39a is great, really high quality and I have never had a problem with it. A better proposal would be to introduce the BRT improvements to the 39a in terms of infrastructure and ticketing. No need to come up with a whole new bloody ****ing brand for it- the NTA should work on improving the existing service in a cohesive way, building on the ND/RTPI improvments, instead of selling this Swiftway competing mode. I would rather see the money put into increasing the abysmal hourly frequency on the Maynooth line.

And I have not made a submission yet- I don't want the trouble of coming up with a fake name and email address, since I am not giving the NTA my real details, I don't trust that their DB won't be compromised in an attack and as a rule I aim for as much anonymity online as possible. TBH I should prob re-reg soon and stop using this account, building up too much context on it.

Well said Bandicoot,that bolded part could be a submission in itself !!

I would be very much in favour of a well ordered and resourced BRT system,however nothing I have read thus far leads me to believe this will not continue to rely upon different "Authorities" attempting to agree on which part of their operation to compromise in order to make this plan half-work....

monument · 18-02-2014 12:03AM

Idbatterim wrote: »

when will the hearing for this take place? where can you object?

You can comment now as part of the public consultation here: http://www.nationaltransport.ie/public-consultations/current/public-consultation-on-bus-rapid-transit/

If it's progressed, it's planned that the first routes will go An Bord Pleanala late this year or early next year. If the extent of your complaint is outlined in your last post, transport policy includes the bigger projects and BRT, not one or the other.

Idbatterim wrote: »

typical Ireland, we wait years and years for a proper transport system, at this stage, whats another few years, E650,000,000 for this joke! The short sighted thinking here is unbelievable, things are blatantly on the up here, it should be spent on metro north, DU or both, this isnt 30-40 million we are talking about.

BRT can be done one route at a time, while DU is a commitment to spend billions.

These projects are not really competing for money or on routes.

cgcsb wrote: »

So it seems that the BRT lane will be shared with conventional buses. I wonder will errant taxi drivers be banned? will they comply with the ban, etc.? Still no hints at centre of the road running. Infact the mock-ups seem to suggest side of road running. No indication of ticketing(same as luas, dublin bus, or new system?).

+1 on centre of the road running.

Shared running with bus lane traffic in places was said from the outset and banning taxis would be a nightmare.

Ticketing will hopefully be sorted as part of wider project to sort DB ticketing and expansion of Leap.

cdebru wrote: »

The clongriffin to tallaght is going to be down the malahide road down the quays up patrick st and out through harolds cross, terenure, plenty of bottlenecks, pinch points.

Not seening any major issues besides just south of the Grand Canal to Rathfarnham -- would love what they come up with for that!

Almost no issues of note with Malahide Rd, quays or Patrick St.

cdebru wrote: »

shared space to fill your boots without even looking at Swords and drumcondra, westland row, pearse st, etc etc.

Westland Row is bus only under NTA's city centre transport study and NTA seem to of the view that Luas BXD will force this sooner than later.

What's the issue with Swords, Drumcondra or Pearse St?

TheBandicoot wrote: »

I know. That's not the point- the quote I posted is the journey time from the Town Centre. What don't you understand about it? 35 minutes from there to the 'City Centre' is about on par with the current bus service.

Sorry, I picked that up wrong.

But at the same time all modes have that extra travel time west of the Blanch centre (and indeed BRT gets closer to many areas).

TheBandicoot wrote: »

I don't know what you mean by 'runs fewer hours', could you rephrase your grammar here?

Luas-like hours of operation (ie 5.30 to 12.30), compared to DB which runs fewer hours of the day.

TheBandicoot wrote: »

And what's wrong with the comparison? As I see it, D.15 is stuck being an hour+/- 10 minutes away from the city centre no matter what mode you use. I want to see a proposal that makes a major cut in that journey time, and this BRT seems to me to only offer a very modest increase, if any at all- without detailed plans it is impossible to estimate accurately.

Even DB's current timetable is sub 50 minutes to the most western parts of D15 so I'm unsure where the extra 20 minutes is coming from. That's the outer reaches of D15 -- much of the area is closer to the city.

30-45 minutes should cover most of D15 and I can't see the justification for much quicker transport to an outer suburb area.

TheBandicoot wrote: »

You will say the BRT is more frequent and reliable. Frankly since Network Direct and RTPI the 10 minute frequency of the 39a is great, really high quality and I have never had a problem with it.

Great for you but BRT is largely aimed at getting more people on buses who are not as convinced as you.

TheBandicoot wrote: »

A better proposal would be to introduce the BRT improvements to the 39a in terms of infrastructure and ticketing. No need to come up with a whole new bloody ****ing brand for it- the NTA should work on improving the existing service in a cohesive way, building on the ND/RTPI improvments, instead of selling this Swiftway competing mode.

The infrastructure and ticketing improvements are a key part of the BRT plan. Branding is an important element also and the DB brand is damaged goods at this stage.

BRT is not a competing mode to DB routes -- BRT will cohesively consume and/or complement the old routes.

TheBandicoot wrote: »

I would rather see the money put into increasing the abysmal hourly frequency on the Maynooth line.

As above, DU is on a larger spending scale and it does not serve even half of the the same trips (even if there is some crossover).

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Except this comes with an absurd price tag for very questionable returns

Higher frequency, higher capacity, more reliability, better accessibility... Not sure what's so questionable at this stage.

Filibuster wrote: »

The bus stops are going to have to be lengthed considerably to accomadate the bendy buses. I don't see this as a runner on the Navan Road.

Yes, this project will include considerable street layout changes.

Filibuster wrote: »

And why isn't the RPA running this, I thought they were the quango in charge of BRT.

They may be designing the route, NTA planning it from the start.

AlekSmart · 18-02-2014 12:46AM

Well,one might wonder what "measures" the NTA will have to come up with to compensate these po' folk........

http://news.ie.msn.com/ireland/300-taxi-drivers-protest-in-dublin-city-over-ads-parking-and-too-many-taxis

"The Ranks bein taken away from us because of the new Luas"......JEEBUS WEPT :eek: !....are this gang for real or wha ???

They have unilaterally seized great swathes of kerbside and carriageway throughout Dublin,and without a care in the world for Public Safety or anything other than their own earning capacity,they continue to,successfully,put-it-up to every Authority supposedly responsible for their "Industry".....and now they want this carry-on rubber-stamped

Before a single signature appears on any of this BRT stuff,this crowd need to be squared away,and fast,because,if not..BRT will descend into the chaos which the current Taxi "Industry" have ensured prevails on every other road transport method in Dublin !

Have I any confidence in this happening ?.....Not a grain....unless some future Garda Commissioner suddenly starts to regard his uniform with a bit of respect !!

Aard · 18-02-2014 01:24AM

I would encourage everybody who feels strongly about BRT (either for or against) to make a submission as part of the public consultation. Your opinion needs to be heard; the NTA aren't psychic. Believe it or not, the people designing it have the best interests of the people at heart and want to achieve consensus. A big problem, however, is convincing the decisionmakers (i.e. politicians) that such-and-such is what the people think and want. Having a report that documents all public submissions will bolster their case and reduce the possibilty for political interference.

For example, I will make a submission regarding centre-running of the lanes. If enough people do so too, it will be very hard to ignore.

Alternatively I can do nothing, then piss and moan when the planning application isn't to my liking. Or if I'm a really cool customer, I will wait until the thing is under construction to give my tuppenceworth and condemn the planners and government to hell.

cgcsb · 18-02-2014 12:26PM

Filibuster wrote: »

Could they have put the pictures up at a lower resolution??

there are enhanced images of each section on the website

Swiftway - Bus Rapid Transit (BRT)

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