Garda Ombudsman offices bugged

tomwaterford · 16-02-2014 01:14PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

I think the best thing any of us could do is explain to a Labour deputy why this means we will not be voting for them.

They need to get that message loud and clear.

I'm utterly disgusted at this whole thing and I'm even more annoyed with how the coalition is 'handling it' from a PR crisis management point of view rather than investigating it and holding whoever is behind it responsible.

This is our democracy being undermined.

I'm at the stage I don't even know who I would vote for anymore. Whole system is just rotten.

its really depressing when you think of it....a normal country there would be serious pressure on a government/at least someone senior to resign....even if this is Ireland il b shocked if they all hold out

yes there doesn't seem any interest to discover who is behind the bugging issue....more who leaked the report from gsoc..serious issue but nowhere near as serious the bugging of gsoc

SpaceTime · 16-02-2014 01:15PM

You realise that GSOC is legally required as part of the Belfast / Good Friday agreement of 1998 as is its Northern counterpart.

Undermining it or scrapping it could actually cause major problems with NI such as the DUP looking at doing similar things to their police watchdog.

Or even undermine the whole agreement.
Very very dodgy thing to be going near in my opinion.

Santa Cruz · 16-02-2014 01:18PM

Shady Tady wrote: »

I think this whole episode shows how incompetent and parnoid GSOC are and have been since they were set up, they have had little sucess with investigations v gardai and appear to me to be scraping the barrel with some of the cases it has taken and this had created bad feeling between gardai and GSOC. There needs to be a clearout of GSOC and start fresh again!

GSOC have had some convictions against Gardaí for assault, I think in Waterford and Gardaí got a prison sentence. However there were other cases which, reading newspaper court reports anyway, should never have gone to court due to poor evidence. But then that was a DPP decision.

GSOC was flawed from the start when they recruited retired Gardaí to do investigations. Not saying these were biased but it doesn't look good from an independence view. Of course a lot of people wouldn't be happy having British investigators coming in.

SpaceTime · 16-02-2014 01:31PM

No reason why they would be annoyed by that.
Also could mean Irish investigators working on similar cases in the UK.

Seems totally reasonable to me as similar policing goes on and there is no language barrier.

Australia, New Zealand and maybe Canada seem like obvious places to exchange with.

Maybe even Malta and Cyprus too.

K-9 · 16-02-2014 01:58PM

Every police force in the world that has investigative bodies probably moans about them, somebody posted earlier in the week about rank and file Gardai being scared to do things and stuff like that. Well, err, that's the way it should be, if everything was rosey between them then I'd be worried.

who_ru · 16-02-2014 02:26PM

K-9 wrote: »

Every police force in the world that has investigative bodies probably moans about them, somebody posted earlier in the week about rank and file Gardai being scared to do things and stuff like that. Well, err, that's the way it should be, if everything was rosey between them then I'd be worried.

I think callinane has made it pretty clear he regards GSOC with contempt and would quite like it if they were gone. He, Shatter and Kenny have done everything on their power this past week to destroy public confidence in GSOC, and by extension the idea that the public have a right to have an accountable police force.

aloyisious · 16-02-2014 02:26PM

Hootanany wrote: »

What am I looking at? Or for

@Hootenany, Kaisersoze & others: He's asked a simple question, the dates a few properties were bought by DOD and his answer: sometime between 1922 and 2013. Lands section in DOD and/or the Lands Registry Office in the 4 Courts would provide the info to him. It's his apparent inability to answer a simple question fully in the Dail that is reflecting badly on him in the current case, what Mr O'brien told him and what he then told the Dail of the conversation.

renegademaster · 16-02-2014 02:33PM

tomwaterford wrote: »

its really depressing when you think of it....a normal country there would be serious pressure on a government/at least someone senior to resign....even if this is Ireland il b shocked if they all hold out

yes there doesn't seem any interest to discover who is behind the bugging issue....more who leaked the report from gsoc..serious issue but nowhere near as serious the bugging of gsoc

they'll hold out until such time public pressure reaches boiling point and then after manystatements in the media about how they're going nowehere and will continue to do the job they were elected to do to the best of their ability blah blah blah

without any major public backlash one could only presume the general public are not that bothered and it's game on for the elite to keep up their corrupt practices

My name is URL · 16-02-2014 02:33PM

I wish Callinan would just resign anyway.. he should do so regardless of this latest debacle. He called whistleblowers 'disgusting' and that is unacceptable no matter what other opinion you may have on the man. For the top policeman in the country to say such a thing damages the trust and credibility of the entire force. Why should anyone report suspicions of wrongdoing to Gardai when the boss man sees 'rats' as being disgusting? How many informants are they paying €200 per week to for them to 'blow the whistle' on other criminals?

He's a fcuking hypocrite and a clown and the longer he stays around the more damage will be done to the image of AGS as a whole.

Santa Cruz · 16-02-2014 02:43PM

My name is URL wrote: »

I wish Callinan would just resign anyway.. he should do so regardless of this latest debacle. He called whistleblowers 'disgusting' and that is unacceptable no matter what other opinion you may have on the man. For the top policeman in the country to say such a thing damages the trust and credibility of the entire force. Why should anyone report suspicions of wrongdoing to Gardai when the boss man sees 'rats' as being disgusting? How many informants are they paying €200 per week to for them to 'blow the whistle' on other criminals?

He's a fcuking hypocrite and a clown and the longer he stays around the more damage will be done to the image of AGS as a whole.

Your post is very good but would be better made without the use of "fcuking"

aloyisious · 16-02-2014 02:44PM

Santa Cruz wrote: »

GSOC have had some convictions against Gardaí for assault, I think in Waterford and Gardaí got a prison sentence. However there were other cases which, reading newspaper court reports anyway, should never have gone to court due to poor evidence. But then that was a DPP decision.

GSOC was flawed from the start when they recruited retired Gardaí to do investigations. Not saying these were biased but it doesn't look good from an independence view. Of course a lot of people wouldn't be happy having British investigators coming in.

For what it's worth, I was surprised to hear yesterday that Mr O'Brien is a retired senior UK Police Officer and experienced in Police investigations. I hadn't bothered to check on his career experience for the GSOC job. I have heard his accent in the spoken broadcast interviews he's been on and assumed from that (and his name) that he is English with Irish family connections. Speaking bluntly, it's left me wondering if his career experience left people feeling uncomfortable that they wouldn't be able to slide things past him and they might want him gone from the GSOC.

Dyr · 16-02-2014 03:03PM

What would be nice would be a garda commisioner drafted in from a canadian or UK etc police force, shake things up in there a bit

Driminagh · 16-02-2014 03:04PM

I think we should have a full public inquiry. Appoint a retired High court or Supreme court Judge, about 20 barristers and solicitors, spend 20 or 30 million euro have public and private hearings, make it last 5 or 6 years. Improve the Judge's pension by millions. Give the barristers a fortune. By the time a report is completed everybody has lost interest. The conclusion of the report will read something like this, On the balance of probabilities something happened but we cannot say what it was but if something did we cannot say who was to blame. Thanks for everybody's hard work. The bill is in the post.

sopretty · 16-02-2014 03:23PM

So now Callinan is reiterating that AGS did not carry out any surveillance and GSOC are tweeting that they want to get back to work.
I'm sure the government will come out now with a statement that they are 'satisfied' that there is nothing further to see here.
And off we go. To await the next scandal.

What a shambles!

who_ru · 16-02-2014 03:26PM

sopretty wrote: »

So now Callinan is reiterating that AGS did not carry out any surveillance and GSOC are tweeting that they want to get back to work.
I'm sure the government will come out now with a statement that they are 'satisfied' that there is nothing further to see here.
And off we go. To await the next scandal.

What a shambles!

this one simply won't go away and callinane is hopelessly compromised and cannot remain in position. as for shatter, the fact that FG haven't sacked him is incredible.

steddyeddy · 16-02-2014 03:31PM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What are whistleblowers in the context of the Gardai and the GSOC? They could be very high minded people who see wrongdoing in their own ranks or in the ranks of their superiors and decide that it has to be brought to public attention.

Or they could be people who are guilty of possible wrongdoing themselves and are facing disciplinary action. This would be their motivation to blow the whistle on others, the "if I'm going down, I will take a few more with me" scenario. It has been reported that the whistleblowers who brought infomation about penalty points to Clare Daly and Mick Wallace were facing disciplinary action.

They could also be mercenary types who know there is money to be made by selling information to the press. Or maybe I'm alone in thinking that all the stories that the papers got from these sources did not come free gratis and for nothing.

Are all of these categories worthy of protection, whatever that means?

Whistleblowers in general are not disgusting. Whatever the motives this is the last we will see of them in the gaurds for a while. Which is a pity considering the amount of corruption in their ranks

SpaceTime · 16-02-2014 03:39PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Whistleblowers in general are not disgusting.

Ireland actually needs a lot more protection of whistleblowers and to encourage a culture of personal moral responsibility in public office and in business.

If we had a culture where whistleblowers were taken seriously and seen as brave individuals who came forward to protect the public and to protect their own organisations, we'd have avoid a hell of a lot of disasters over the years.

If people had come forward about the conditions in care institutions in the 1950s, we'd have avoided terrible problems and damage to thousands of kids who went through them and were abused.

If we'd had someone blowing the whistle at the banks and being confident they could do that, their lending policies might have been reigned in during the 1990s and not in 2008 by which time they'd caused economic chaos that is going to take us 30+ years to fix.

Whistleblowers are far from disgusting, they're the people who see the bigger picture and have the moral backbone to get up and do something to correct wrongs.

aloyisious · 16-02-2014 03:56PM

At this stage, I think it's come to what's called a stand-off and both sides should agree to a PR release at a PR event, at which they'll say that both sides are NOT going to pursue the matter any further, that NO questions will be entertained and it is closed, period. Barring the Sunday Times investigative team coming up with a fresh angle and definitive proof about the issue, not merely journalistic "probings" for a response to inconclusive reports, I hope the topic get's a decent burial.

Re "whistleblowers", unfortunately they have history in Irish folklore, previously being called informers. I'm NOT at all saying they have the same character at all, just that in Irish-idiom they are sometimes seen as one and the same. I also find it "funny-peculiar" that those reporting on the official legal wrongdoing of others are called "whistle-blowers" contemptuously, when they are merely doing what the public and state want's and expect's them to do, being paid Police Officers acting in the public interest by (metaphorically) pulling out their issue-whistles and calling a halt to unlawful/illegal activities.

renegademaster · 16-02-2014 03:59PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

Ireland actually needs a lot more protection of whistleblowers and to encourage a culture of personal moral responsibility in public office and in business.

If we had a culture where whistleblowers were taken seriously and seen as brave individuals who came forward to protect the public and to protect their own organisations, we'd have avoid a hell of a lot of disasters over the years.

If people had come forward about the conditions in care institutions in the 1950s, we'd have avoided terrible problems and damage to thousands of kids who went through them and were abused.

If we'd had someone blowing the whistle at the banks and being confident they could do that, their lending policies might have been reigned in during the 1990s and not in 2008 by which time they'd caused economic chaos that is going to take us 30+ years to fix.

Whistleblowers are far from disgusting, they're the people who see the bigger picture and have the moral backbone to get up and do something to correct wrongs.

we've had and will continue to have plenty of whistleblowers, but the real problem surrounding their treatment after they blow the whistle is that the Irish people turn their backs on the individuals bravery by doing nothing when it's exposed that pressure is put on the whistleblowers by vested interests. By doing nothing you are in fact condoning/encouraging the actions of the corrupt.

SpaceTime · 16-02-2014 04:01PM

renegademaster wrote: »

we've had and will continue to have plenty of whistleblowers, but the real problem surrounding their treatment after they blow the whistle is that the Irish people turn their backs on the individuals bravery by doing nothing when it's exposed that pressure is put on the whistleblowers by vested interests. By doing nothing you are in fact condoning/encouraging the actions of the corrupt.

That's the thing though, the general public seems to have upmost respect for whistleblowers. It's the establishment that doesn't and that's the same in all cultures.

The problem is you have to restructure the 'system' to allow for whistleblowing. Otherwise vested interest hold too much power.

Britain or the US isn't too different in that regard either in many respects. However we should be setting or bar much higher than our English-speaking cousins.

We rank in various studies as 12th most democratic country in the world, ahead of the UK, US and France but behind the Nordic Countries, New Zealand, the Netherlands, Belgium, Australia, NZ and Germany.

We should be aiming to top that table. We claim to be an idealistic, liberal, republic. Maybe it's time we started putting our money where our mouth is and stopped being mediocre!

At one stage we actually topped the league table in things like press freedom where as we've now slipped back to 8th (the UK is 18th). Little things like this MATTER.

renegademaster · 16-02-2014 04:08PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

That's the thing though, the general public seems to have upmost respect for whistleblowers. It's the establishment that doesn't and that's the same in all cultures.

The problem is you have to restructure the 'system' to allow for whistleblowing. Otherwise vested interest hold too much power.

the general public having the "upmost respect" for whistleblowers in private means sweet feck all in the real world, vested interest hold the power here for want of a decent demonstration by joe bloggs that he's not going to take this anymore, until the people show they're somewhat united and willing to challenge corruption why would the corrupt give a rats ass for people private views

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcx9BJRadfw

SpaceTime · 16-02-2014 04:09PM

It's more than protests that are needed though, it's voting for people who are willing to put the require political changes into place to create the levels of transparency and checks and balances that are in place in the Nordic countries or New Zealand.

We still vote for people who are good at filling potholes or who got the granny a place in the nursing home that she would have got anyway had she filled in the paperwork correctly etc etc.

I'm always amazed at how people are so indebted to various TDs for things that the could sort out themselves with a lift of a phone. I don't know how many local issues I've solved myself by just phoning the local council or ESB or whatever agency is needed. I've found them mostly extremely responsive.

I've had pot holes filled, lights fixed, roads repaired etc without any need to resort to phoning legislators!

To be fair, we rank in the upper end of the developed world in terms of democracy and all of those things but we could rank a LOT higher with a bit of effort. I'd consider scoring similar to the US and the UK as being only "ok-ish". We should be up there with New Zealand and some of the Scandinavian countries.

In all the stats what holds us back is corruption ratings / corruption perception indexes etc. We score really highly on everything else. You fix that by putting the proper structures in place to prevent it and by respecting those structures.

The protest that will count is at the ballot box and grilling your TDs over it.

---

We've a highly educated, highly politically literate population and it's about time they grew up and started taking these things more seriously.

There's a huge responsibility on journalists in this regard too. So, I'd have to congratulate everyone who has written pieces on this or who has discussed it on air and also everyone who has chipped in on boards, twitter and other social media.

dxhound2005 · 16-02-2014 04:18PM

who_ru wrote: »

RTE, Paul Reynolds, David davin Power shoud all hang their heads in shame - they are a disgrace to their profession. shockingly biased.

Mooney was on RTE Radio 1 again today on This Week. He just keeps coming out with his spiel about black ops and credible threats etc. When asked how he knew about the black ops, his reply was I know what I know. Disgracefully the interviewer let him away with that, imagine what would happen if a politician gave that answer.

And even more disgracefully in light of what we know about his bosses, News International, the subject of whether money has changed hands to elicit confidential information from Gardai was never even mentioned.

Busted Flat. · 16-02-2014 04:25PM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Mooney was on RTE Radio 1 again today on This Week. He just keeps coming out with his spiel about black ops and credible threats etc. When asked how he knew about the black ops, his reply was I know what I know. Disgracefully the interviewer let him away with that, imagine what would happen if a politician gave that answer.

And even more disgracefully in light of what we know about his bosses, News International, the subject of whether money has changed hands to elicit confidential information from Gardai was never even mentioned.

Shoot the messenger, and bury your head in the sand, Irish people have being doing that since the foundation of this sick and sorry state.

Red Pepper · 16-02-2014 04:27PM

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Shoot the messenger, and bury your head in the sand, Irish people have being doing that since the foundation of this sick and sorry state.

Yep and seem to be content to do so forever more. Pathetic.

flynnlives · 16-02-2014 04:29PM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Mooney was on RTE Radio 1 again today on This Week. He just keeps coming out with his spiel about black ops and credible threats etc. When asked how he knew about the black ops, his reply was I know what I know. Disgracefully the interviewer let him away with that, imagine what would happen if a politician gave that answer.

And even more disgracefully in light of what we know about his bosses, News International, the subject of whether money has changed hands to elicit confidential information from Gardai was never even mentioned.

he is a journalist! his sources and means of recieving information are protected by law.

You seem to confuse a politicians role, serving the public with that of a journalists.

Mooney is under no obilgation to explain his sources.

Shatter and Callinan are however mandated by law to explain matters to the general public. They have done nothing of the sort.

Well done on trying to deflect attention tho! Some people in Ireland have an in built "shoot the messenger" syndrome.

Tell me are you not shocked that a independent body of the state was subjected to covert surveillance?
That teh MOJ mislead the dail?
And that certain Gardai are closely linked to a drug trafficer and his trial was mysteriously dropped?

Because those are the real issues. Anything else is just deflection.

Manach · 16-02-2014 04:33PM

Move along, nothing to see hear, all is fine. :rolleyes:

dxhound2005 · 16-02-2014 04:35PM

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Shoot the messenger, and bury your head in the sand, Irish people have being doing that since the foundation of this sick and sorry state.

If Mooney had not printed that story last week my life and I suppose yours would have been none the poorer. I want to see an oversight body for the Gardai which can operate in a confidential manner. It is quite apparent now that nobody need have gone to the trouble of setting up a spying operation on GSOC when you may as well have had a Sunday Times journalist sitting in on their every meeting.

Equally I do not want members of the Gardai passing confidential information to the Sunday Times. Or any newspaper, but especially the Sunday Times which has Rupert Murdoch in charge. The messengers in the UK are now being lined up to be shot for their nefarious deeds, so I wouldn't grieve very much if the same happened here. But nobody in the media seems interested in the elephant in the room.

tomwaterford · 16-02-2014 04:36PM

aloyisious wrote: »

At this stage, I think it's come to what's called a stand-off and both sides should agree to a PR release at a PR event, at which they'll say that both sides are NOT going to pursue the matter any further, that NO questions will be entertained and it is closed, period. Barring the Sunday Times investigative team coming up with a fresh angle and definitive proof about the issue, not merely journalistic "probings" for a response to inconclusive reports, I hope the topic get's a decent burial.

Re "whistleblowers", unfortunately they have history in Irish folklore, previously being called informers. I'm NOT at all saying they have the same character at all, just that in Irish-idiom they are sometimes seen as one and the same. I also find it "funny-peculiar" that those reporting on the official legal wrongdoing of others are called "whistle-blowers" contemptuously, when they are merely doing what the public and state want's and expect's them to do, being paid Police Officers acting in the public interest by (metaphorically) pulling out their issue-whistles and calling a halt to unlawful/illegal activities.

in other brush it under the carpet and forget about it:mad::mad::mad:

jesus I hope that doesn't happen-pure disgrace if it does

who_ru · 16-02-2014 04:40PM

aloyisious wrote: »

At this stage, I think it's come to what's called a stand-off and both sides should agree to a PR release at a PR event, at which they'll say that both sides are NOT going to pursue the matter any further, that NO questions will be entertained and it is closed, period. Barring the Sunday Times investigative team coming up with a fresh angle and definitive proof about the issue, not merely journalistic "probings" for a response to inconclusive reports, I hope the topic get's a decent burial.

what do you think this is - x factor? PR event!

i

Garda Ombudsman offices bugged

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