Garda Ombudsman offices bugged

Fr. Ned · 16-02-2014 02:07AM

kippy wrote: »

I dont and cannot understand the commissioners public attitude to "whistleblowers" - it is an unhealthy attitude to have at best and something that should raise major concern at all levels.

He called whistleblowers 'disgusting', yet yesterday he was asking for them to come forward if they had any information.

He's finished, he has zero credibility.

Shady Tady · 16-02-2014 02:53AM

Fr. Ned wrote: »

He called whistleblowers 'disgusting', yet yesterday he was asking for them to come forward if they had any information.

He's finished, he has zero credibility.

"You can't handle the truth" good night!

jonsnow · 16-02-2014 08:01AM

Fr. Ned wrote: »

He called whistleblowers 'disgusting', yet yesterday he was asking for them to come forward if they had any information.

He's finished, he has zero credibility.

He has zero credibility but hes not finished. Thats how it works in Ireland unfortunately. In most other modern democracies Shatter and Callinan would both be long gone for their various transgressions

bren2002 · 16-02-2014 09:12AM

If todays revelation is accurate, someone will have to fall on their sword this week. I don't see that being Shatter either.

Yawlboy · 16-02-2014 10:03AM

bren2002 wrote: »

If todays revelation is accurate, someone will have to fall on their sword this week. I don't see that being Shatter either.

If todays revelation is accurate then both Shatter and Enda should resign from public office.

The Garda Commissioner and the head of the GSOC should also resign.

GSOC should be replaced with an ombudsman with real power (access to PULSE, powers to force the Garda commissioner to answer to them, etc.) and all members of the ombudsman should not be appointed by any elected official.

All whistleblowers should be given complete protection and support....

but this is Ireland ........

Fr. Ned · 16-02-2014 10:10AM

Yawlboy wrote: »

If todays revelation is accurate then both Shatter and Enda should resign from public office.

The Garda Commissioner and the head of the GSOC should also resign.

GSOC should be replaced with an ombudsman with real power (access to PULSE, powers to force the Garda commissioner to answer to them, etc.) and all members of the ombudsman should not be appointed by any elected official.

All whistleblowers should be given complete protection and support....

but this is Ireland ........

Yep, pay rises and bonuses for all.......

dxhound2005 · 16-02-2014 11:11AM

Yawlboy wrote: »

If todays revelation is accurate then both Shatter and Enda should resign from public office.

The Garda Commissioner and the head of the GSOC should also resign.

GSOC should be replaced with an ombudsman with real power (access to PULSE, powers to force the Garda commissioner to answer to them, etc.) and all members of the ombudsman should not be appointed by any elected official.

All whistleblowers should be given complete protection and support....

but this is Ireland ........

What are whistleblowers in the context of the Gardai and the GSOC? They could be very high minded people who see wrongdoing in their own ranks or in the ranks of their superiors and decide that it has to be brought to public attention.

Or they could be people who are guilty of possible wrongdoing themselves and are facing disciplinary action. This would be their motivation to blow the whistle on others, the "if I'm going down, I will take a few more with me" scenario. It has been reported that the whistleblowers who brought infomation about penalty points to Clare Daly and Mick Wallace were facing disciplinary action.

They could also be mercenary types who know there is money to be made by selling information to the press. Or maybe I'm alone in thinking that all the stories that the papers got from these sources did not come free gratis and for nothing.

Are all of these categories worthy of protection, whatever that means?

kippy · 16-02-2014 11:13AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What are whistleblowers in the context of the Gardai and the GSOC? They could be very high minded people who see wrongdoing in their own ranks or in the ranks of their superiors and decide that it has to be brought to public attention.

Or they could be people who are guilty of possible wrongdoing themselves and are facing disciplinary action. This would be their motivation to blow the whistle on others, the "if I'm going down, I will take a few more with me" scenario. It has been reported that the whistleblowers who brought infomation about penalty points to Clare Daly and Mick Wallace were facing disciplinary action.

They could also be mercenary types who know there is money to be made by selling information to the press. Or maybe I'm alone in thinking that all the stories that the papers got from these sources did not come free gratis and for nothing.

Are all of these categories worthy of protection, whatever that means?

Yes.
So long as what they are alleging is proven.

Whistleblowing for some reason appears to be thought of as a dirty word. Essentially what it is, is someone actually doing a part of their job. If there are issues within a workplace generally they are dealt with internally, however in a workplace such as the AGS these issues can have far reaching implications. If everyone did they job correctly then a situation should never have to get to a point where the term "whistleblower" is labelled on it.

Now, for the most senior ranking Garda in the country to come out and say that whistleblowing is disgusting, essentially means that the environment is such that nothing will ever improve in there.

By the way, the vast majority of the AGS do brilliant work, I have no doubt about that, but there is definetly something amiss.

Happyman42 · 16-02-2014 11:14AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What are whistleblowers in the context of the Gardai and the GSOC? They could be very high minded people who see wrongdoing in their own ranks or in the ranks of their superiors and decide that it has to be brought to public attention.

Or they could be people who are guilty of possible wrongdoing themselves and are facing disciplinary action. This would be their motivation to blow the whistle on others, the "if I'm going down, I will take a few more with me" scenario. It has been reported that the whistleblowers who brought infomation about penalty points to Clare Daly and Mick Wallace were facing disciplinary action.

They could also be mercenary types who know there is money to be made by selling information to the press. Or maybe I'm alone in thinking that all the stories that the papers got from these sources did not come free gratis and for nothing.

Are all of these categories worthy of protection, whatever that means?

The only thing you can do is assess the veracity of the information they are blowing the whistle on. Don't shoot the messenger until you do that.

Yawlboy · 16-02-2014 11:19AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What are whistleblowers in the context of the Gardai and the GSOC? They could be very high minded people who see wrongdoing in their own ranks or in the ranks of their superiors and decide that it has to be brought to public attention.

Or they could be people who are guilty of possible wrongdoing themselves and are facing disciplinary action. This would be their motivation to blow the whistle on others, the "if I'm going down, I will take a few more with me" scenario. It has been reported that the whistleblowers who brought infomation about penalty points to Clare Daly and Mick Wallace were facing disciplinary action.

They could also be mercenary types who know there is money to be made by selling information to the press. Or maybe I'm alone in thinking that all the stories that the papers got from these sources did not come free gratis and for nothing.

Are all of these categories worthy of protection, whatever that means?

If we had a properly independent and powerful GSOC then they would be the avenue for Garda whistleblowers not the newspapers.

dxhound2005 · 16-02-2014 11:33AM

Yawlboy wrote: »

If we had a properly independent and powerful GSOC then they would be the avenue for Garda whistleblowers not the newspapers.

The GSOC have a system of confidential recipients. Which are retired judges and the like to which whistleblowers can report in confidence. But the press got details of at least one whistleblower's report to his confidential recipient. It did not need an array of electronic surveillance equipment to make that happen. Just an old fashioned scoop as the press would see it or a possible offence with up to 7 years in prison as the penalty as the law might see it.

So if it is possible for the press to infiltrate to this level, how can a system be devised which is actually confidential and details of which we will never see on the front pages on a Sunday?

kippy · 16-02-2014 11:37AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The GSOC have a system of confidential recipients. Which are retired judges and the like to which whistleblowers can report in confidence. But the press got details of at least one whistleblower's report to his confidential recipient. It did not need an array of electronic surveillance equipment to make that happen. Just an old fashioned scoop as the press would see it or a possible offence with up to 7 years in prison as the penalty as the law might see it.

So if it is possible for the press to infiltrate to this level, how can a system be devised which is actually confidential and details of which we will never see on the front pages on a Sunday?

What whistleblowers report are you talking about?
If you are talking about the report that the security firm did, I am delighted it has gotten out, the information is almost in the public domain now, it is up to us to act on it.
It would be unlikely that the person who leaked the security firms report to the press had any other options as to where to go with it, especially not through GSOC channels (think about it)

Hootanany · 16-02-2014 11:41AM

What was the story in the Sunday Times today?

Fr. Ned · 16-02-2014 11:42AM

kippy wrote: »

What whistleblowers report are you talking about?
If you are talking about the report that the security firm did, I am delighted it has gotten out, the information is almost in the public domain now, it is up to us to act on it.
It would be unlikely that the person who leaked the security firms report to the press had any other options as to where to go with it, especially not through GSOC channels (think about it)

Exactly.

It's a pity our own media are so beholding and that it took a British paper to bring this into the public domain.

Fr. Ned · 16-02-2014 11:44AM

Hootanany wrote: »

What was the story in the Sunday Times today?

The story is that a senior Garda was able to tell the GSOC about meetings and transcripts that only the GSOC had access to and hadn't been circulated outside the GSOC's offices.

It looks like the bugging was by AGS.

That leaves Callinan's position untenable and Shatter's too.

twowheelsgood · 16-02-2014 11:48AM

Fr. Ned wrote: »

The story is that a senior Garda was able to tell the GSOC about meetings and transcripts that only the GSOC had access to and hadn't been circulated outside the GSOC's offices.

It looks like the bugging was by AGS.

That leaves Callinan's position untenable and Shatter's too.

If the story is true. But there are reports that this story was simply a misunderstanding by some in the GSOC office.

Phoebas · 16-02-2014 11:51AM

twowheelsgood wrote: »

If the story is true. But there are reports that this story was simply a misunderstanding by some in the GSOC office.

GSOC themselves have already said that the story is false.

kippy · 16-02-2014 11:54AM

Phoebas wrote: »

GSOC themselves have already said that the story is false.

There is so much mis-communication,communication, misdirection, lack of direction, asscovering, and downright shadow boxing going on at this point that I dont think there is a clear timeline/action list of what has happened.

All that is apparent is the GSOC was bugged and the report about it was buried to a point and now it appears lies have been told and those that actually did the bugging appear to be the ones with the least amount of pressure on them (whomever they are)

Banjo String · 16-02-2014 12:12PM

Fr. Ned wrote: »

The story is that a senior Garda was able to tell the GSOC about meetings and transcripts that only the GSOC had access to and hadn't been circulated outside the GSOC's offices.

It looks like the bugging was by AGS.

That leaves Callinan's position untenable and Shatter's too.

As Callinan and Shatter are 'practically joined at the hip' there is no possible way Shatter wasn't in the loop either.

How far up the chain of command did it go with ministers?

Enda told more than an 'innocent fib' during the week.

I bet the Govt are praying for a distraction story atm. But this ain't going away. A public enquiry needs to take place. If they refuse(keep rrfusing) it proves this whole story is a hell of a lot more than the 'bottle of smoke' they want us to believe.

Proof that FG are every bit as corrupt as their predecessors. Every square inch of them. New politics me arse.

who_ru · 16-02-2014 12:23PM

Fr. Ned wrote: »

Exactly.

It's a pity our own media are so beholding and that it took a British paper to bring this into the public domain.

RTE, Paul Reynolds, David davin Power shoud all hang their heads in shame - they are a disgrace to their profession. shockingly biased.

Shady Tady · 16-02-2014 12:24PM

I think this whole episode shows how incompetent and parnoid GSOC are and have been since they were set up, they have had little sucess with investigations v gardai and appear to me to be scraping the barrel with some of the cases it has taken and this had created bad feeling between gardai and GSOC. There needs to be a clearout of GSOC and start fresh again!

who_ru · 16-02-2014 12:27PM

Callinane was directing operations during the Boylan drug importation/distribution business. He has something to hide big time.

this is the reason for the bugging. He protected a drug smuggler, pusher and a person responsible for the deaths of young people in communities up and down the country.

that's my opinion.

Banjo String · 16-02-2014 12:28PM

Shady Tady wrote: »

I think this whole episode shows how incompetent and parnoid GSOC are and have been since they were set up, they have had little sucess with investigations v gardai and appear to me to be scraping the barrel with some of the cases it has taken and this had created bad feeling between gardai and GSOC. There needs to be a clearout of GSOC and start fresh again!

Tbf, they had every right to be 'paranoid'. Imagine, 2013/14 and having to hold meetings in cafés because your own office space (particularly 4th floor) was under surveillance by the people they were investigating.

who_ru · 16-02-2014 12:28PM

Shady Tady wrote: »

I think this whole episode shows how incompetent and parnoid GSOC are and have been since they were set up, they have had little sucess with investigations v gardai and appear to me to be scraping the barrel with some of the cases it has taken and this had created bad feeling between gardai and GSOC. There needs to be a clearout of GSOC and start fresh again!

you are clueless with a comment like that.

Shady Tady · 16-02-2014 12:33PM

who_ru wrote: »

you are clueless with a comment like that.

Please elaborate! Maybe the truth hurts!

SpaceTime · 16-02-2014 12:41PM

I think the best thing any of us could do is explain to a Labour deputy why this means we will not be voting for them.

They need to get that message loud and clear.

I'm utterly disgusted at this whole thing and I'm even more annoyed with how the coalition is 'handling it' from a PR crisis management point of view rather than investigating it and holding whoever is behind it responsible.

This is our democracy being undermined.

I'm at the stage I don't even know who I would vote for anymore. Whole system is just rotten.

mickdw · 16-02-2014 12:45PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

I think the best thing any of us could do is explain to a Labour deputy why this means we will not be voting for them.

They need to get that message loud and clear.

I'm utterly disgusted at this whole thing and I'm even more annoyed with how the coalition is 'handling it' from a PR crisis management point of view rather than investigating it and holding whoever is behind it responsible.

Yes I think labour are carefully watching their own backs here, standing behind government but also questioning callinans comments in case the sh1t hits the fan. It would indeed be wise to inform local labour td that they are going down with fg if they don't stand up and be counted here.

who_ru · 16-02-2014 12:57PM

Shady Tady wrote: »

Please elaborate! Maybe the truth hurts!

please read the following articles from yesterdays Examiner written by the brilliant Mick Clifford.......then post your thoughts.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/michael-clifford/strange-tale-of-shatter-and-whistleblower-258830.html

SpaceTime · 16-02-2014 01:01PM

I'm not just saying this out of party political motivations either.
I'm quite genuinely very disillusioned by all this. The financial scandals of the last few years were bad enough but this just takes the biscuit.

tomwaterford · 16-02-2014 01:09PM

Shady Tady wrote: »

I think this whole episode shows how incompetent and parnoid GSOC are and have been since they were set up, they have had little sucess with investigations v gardai and appear to me to be scraping the barrel with some of the cases it has taken and this had created bad feeling between gardai and GSOC. There needs to be a clearout of GSOC and start fresh again!

yes they were incompetent:rolleyes: to such and exent that somebody went to the effort of electronically bugging them and they went along and told senior gardai..as the commissioner said it definely wasn't the gaurds with 100% certainty;)
they the gaurds over played their hand in a meeting with gsoc which lead the gsoc to be paranoid regarding bugging (rightly IMO)

unless the commissioner wasn't been 100% truthfull in relation to the bugging ordered or not

and your solution to this particular set of circumstances is sack gsoc??:eek::eek:

Garda Ombudsman offices bugged

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