Garda Ombudsman offices bugged

15-02-2014 04:36AM

JacquesDeLad wrote: »

Did the NSA do it?

I really don't care.

I'm more worried about the prospect of yet another expensive enquiry into something no one really cares about.

Can I join you in the clouds there?

kippy · 15-02-2014 09:37AM

JacquesDeLad wrote: »

Did the NSA do it?

I really don't care.

I'm more worried about the prospect of yet another expensive enquiry into something no one really cares about.

I dont want an expensive enquiry but I for one care about this a lot......
Do you not think that the potential truth here is something that needs to come out?

Banjo String · 15-02-2014 12:43PM

Rabbite and Gilmore seem to have grown a pair, even if it's only between them.

I think they see the bigger picture here, and don't want any part of the incoming shït storm headed FGs way.

Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan’s claims there was no unauthorised Garda involvement in the surveillance of the offices of the police watchdog have been questioned by senior ministers

Communications Minister Pat Rabbitte said he could not understand how Mr Callinan could give such an assurance, a stance backed by Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore.

Asked about the possibility that a “rogue” element of An Garda Síochána could have bugged the GSOC offices, Mr Callinan yesterday said no garda was involved in any surveillance of the watchdog offices or any member of the commission.

Mr Rabbitte told RTÉ he was “not sure” how the Garda Commissioner could give such categoric assurances on the question of unauthorised Garda intrusion. A spokesperson for Mr Gilmore said the Tánaiste agreed with Mr Rabbitte.

Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin said that if Mr Callinan could state with certainty there was no Garda involvement, then it raised the possibility there was other information available about who was responsible.

Speaking in Templemore, Co Tipperary, Mr Callinan was also critical of the police watchdog, saying that the leaking of the secret report had vindicated Garda concerns about the way GSOC handled highly confidential and sensitive information.

“I think the pigeon has come home to roost,” said Mr Callinan.

Justice Minister Alan Shatter struck a far more conciliatory tone after refusing to express confidence in the chairman of GSOC, Simon O’Brien, insisting he had confidence in the three ombudsmen collectively.

However, Mr Shatter was urged to correct the record of the Dáil after it emerged he received a briefing document from the commission on Monday, containing details that were omitted from his statement on Tuesday.

The document given to the minister by Mr O’Brien had three pieces of information which were not included in Mr Shatter’s Dáil speech on the issue the following day

Sinn Féin’s Pádraig Mac Lochlainn, chairman of the Oireachtas Oversight Committee which will question Mr Shatter on Wednesday, said his reading of the briefing note “heightened” his concerns.

Fianna Fáil’s justice spokesman, Niall Collins, said Mr Shatter had “come up very short in the information he provided to the Dáil”.

He called on Mr Shatter to “at a very minimum” correct the record and clarify what he told TDs on Tuesday night. “The Dáil is the people’s parliament and we are entitled to know this pertinent information which he was in possession of and which he refused to give to the Dáil,” said Mr Collins.

He added that the document “emphatically proves the minister was in possession of information which he did not make available to the Dáil”.

Meanwhile, GSOC last night said it had delivered a letter to the Department of Justice outlining concerns raised by Mr Shatter on Thursday in relation to alleged differences in Mr O’Brien’s two-hour briefing to the minister on Monday, and his subsequent appearance at the Oireachtas Oversight Committee.The commission said the content of the letter sought to “fully address and clarify” Mr Shatter's concerns.

I get the feeling F.G and AGS wish this story would die, but I think it's only going to get bigger, especially if tomorrow's IT report has any further juicy details, (which OBrien himself seems to hint at).

This could very well be the undoing of this Govt who thought/thinks they are above the law and answerable to no one.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/callinans-bugging-assurances-fail-to-convince-258875.html

aloyisious · 15-02-2014 02:02PM

The Comm's comment "the pigeon has come home to roost" left me wondering if (besides clearly being a public dig at the GSOC by the head of law enforcement of our country) it was a message to whistle-blowers (stool-pigeons) and the media. Then again, if Mr Callinan is so cocksure of his position to make such a comment in front of his boss and minister, maybe he's over-reached himself and made Alan Shatter et al aware that there might be a loose cannon in their midst. I noted he made his entrance to the hall directly in front of his boss, hogging all the limelight that the guest would usually be given, not normally the protocol-thing to do.

I'd like the media to approach the AG and ask him for his opinion on the matter, just to stir the Govt pot.

renegademaster · 15-02-2014 02:59PM

kippy wrote: »

I dont want an expensive enquiry but I for one care about this a lot......
Do you not think that the potential truth here is something that needs to come out?

the likes of an Edward Snowden or Bradley Manning is the only chance of us finding out what happened here, Shatter has towed the same "none of our people have been spying" line as other "leaders" who got their friends or neighbours to do the spyign for them. it's an old tactic now cos we've bene shown the truth but how easily and confidently the majority still run from the truth is shocking :eek::eek:

tayto lover · 15-02-2014 03:05PM

renegademaster wrote: »

the likes of an Edward Snowden or Bradley Manning is the only chance of us finding out what happened here, Shatter has towed the same "none of our people have been spying" line as other "leaders" who got their friends or neighbours to do the spyign for them. it's an old tactic now cos we've bene shown the truth but how easily and confidently the majority still run from the truth is shocking :eek::eek:

What do you think they are hiding?
Is there something so important that would convince them to spend loads of money and use expensive equipment as well as risk their careers?
This has me baffled.

renegademaster · 15-02-2014 03:07PM

Banjo String wrote: »

Rabbite and Gilmore seem to have grown a pair, even if it's only between them.

I think they see the bigger picture here, and don't want any part of the incoming shït storm headed FGs way.

I get the feeling F.G and AGS wish this story would die, but I think it's only going to get bigger, especially if tomorrow's IT report has any further juicy details, (which OBrien himself seems to hint at).

This could very well be the undoing of this Govt who thought/thinks they are above the law and answerable to no one.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/callinans-bugging-assurances-fail-to-convince-258875.html

thinking one is above the law because of ones job title or agency they're alligned with is not exclusive to Ireland and in fact a few people have put their lives on the line to expose such practices not only in Ireland but in every country worldwide. We should have took to the streets to demand that the government WE voted in and to whom we give OUR mandate to grant asylum for Edward Snowden. Our government will only do $hit if they think we want it, until we show them what we're about they'll keep treating us like a flippin doormat while they drown in luxury

renegademaster · 15-02-2014 03:16PM

tayto lover wrote: »

What do you think they are hiding?
Is there something so important that would convince them to spend loads of money and use expensive equipment as well as risk their careers?
This has me baffled.

it's not their money so why would they give a damn about spending our tax euros to get the info in, knowledge is power, the snowden files show how important it is to corrupt regiemes to have all the info from everywhere so no matter what happens they can "control" it or not as it may seem.

regarding ending their career, take a look around, not to many are falling for unbelieveable acts of treason, human rights abuses, crimes of war, spying, corruption, bankrupting of the planets banking system/ponsi scheme, rendition flights, funding coups/sarting and manipulating civil wars, detrimental tax evasion on a scale that we would never be allowed cos we keep the whole daft system afloat through blood sweat and tears on the ground.

i am so sick of pointing out all the mental **** corrupt government officials, including our own have been implemented in yet the people seem to think the kind of people who sign off on this should be left to do their "jobs" and get well looked after for it.

aloyisious · 15-02-2014 03:17PM

One wonder's if the state has a list of retired "members" who performed activities for state agencies and Ministers in the past contactable for "nixers", purely for "theoretical security operational scenarios" only, of course (minister to underling - thank God they can't insist on written contracts, definitive proof, plausible deniability etc). "what, tapes! - you didn't frisk them on the way in???"

hatrickpatrick · 15-02-2014 04:15PM

tayto lover wrote: »

What do you think they are hiding?
Is there something so important that would convince them to spend loads of money and use expensive equipment as well as risk their careers?
This has me baffled.

Is it really so hard to imagine that gsoc could have stumbled upon some wrongdoing that goes so far up the chain of command that it would threaten Callinan and maybe also the minister?
Obviously there's no evidence of that, but given what happened last year with Shatter and Wallace, I've just lost all trust in those at the top of the justice system in this country. If some kind of massive cover up was exposed it wouldn't shock me in the least, and that's a very sad thing to have to say in a supposed democracy.

tayto lover · 15-02-2014 04:18PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Is it really so hard to imagine that gsoc could have stumbled upon some wrongdoing that goes so far up the chain of command that it would threaten Callinan and maybe also the minister?
Obviously there's no evidence of that, but given what happened last year with Shatter and Wallace, I've just lost all trust in those at the top of the justice system in this country. If some kind of massive cover up was exposed it wouldn't shock me in the least, and that's a very sad thing to have to say in a supposed democracy.

Totally agree but i'm still a stickler for getting to the bottom of it all. Proof is needed in this present case.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 15-02-2014 04:20PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Looks like the media backlash against the government's response to this whole business has finally begun in earnest:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/analysis/gsoc-controversy-highlights-the-joke-of-a-democratic-ireland-258710.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/gsoc-briefing-paper-contains-more-than-shatter-dáil-statement-1.1691878

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/official-accounts-of-breach-do-not-tally-1.1690993

Is the tide turning at last?

It's been happening since last week chief

renegademaster · 15-02-2014 04:30PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Totally agree but i'm still a stickler for getting to the bottom of it all. Proof is needed in this present case.

sure the globe is drowning in proof of corruption and spying for crying out loud!! :eek:

if a nation decides to do nothing it's a very long drawn out process before everything collapses inevitably, if a nation decides to stand up for itself it gets pounded by the police and army which is there to protect the corrupt, but the people and some for the first time in their lives are empowered and istead of ****ty divisionary views and not talking to each other we will all be out on the streets together and inevitably the police/army stand down and join their own people again to plan a new future where people no longer put up with being treated like complete idiots, live on your feet or continue to be corrupted on your knees begging for more

tayto lover · 15-02-2014 04:35PM

renegademaster wrote: »

sure the globe is drowning in proof of corruption and spying for crying out loud!! :eek:

if a nation decides to do nothing it's a very long drawn out process before everything collapses inevitably, if a nation decides to stand up for itself it gets pounded by the police and army which is there to protect the corrupt, but the people and some for the first time in their lives are empowered and istead of ****ty divisionary views and not talking to each other we will all be out on the streets together and inevitably the police/army stand down and join their own people again to plan a new future where people no longer put up with being treated like complete idiots, live on your feet or continue to be corrupted on your knees begging for more

Who will that convict?

hatrickpatrick · 15-02-2014 04:56PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Totally agree but i'm still a stickler for getting to the bottom of it all. Proof is needed in this present case.

Absolutely agreed, all I'm saying is that when you ask what people think they might be hiding, that's probably the kind of thing they're thinking of, and that fact alone is quite sad. We shouldn't have leaders we're so suspicious of - as I've said several times, Shatter's exposing of private Garda info on Wallace should have been grounds for sacking IMO, and the fact that Callinan told him should have been grounds for Callinan to be examined as well.
You simply can't have that kind of carry on in a civilized democracy and the reason it's relevant to this is that it's that specific incident which has made me, and clearly others, automatically consider the most awful possibilities when there is the potential for those in high places to have misbehaved. This is toxic to democracy and isn't how it's supposed to be.

I'm not suggesting a healthy skepticism of those in power isn't normal and healthy, but the fact that so many people clearly don't trust either the minister or the commissioner is a real problem. There's a difference between healthy skepticism of people in power generally, and having to say "I don't trust these guys because they've *cough* shattered that trust in the past with their behavior.

And yes, that pun was very much intended

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

It's been happening since last week chief

Not in the Irish Times, or have I missed something?

aloyisious · 15-02-2014 05:32PM

I think Alan shatter is not very forthcoming with specific information when requested for it.

Question: Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
491. To ask the Minister for Defence if he will outline the complete list of properties and land that his Department owns in an area (details supplied) in County Wicklow; when the properties and land came into possession of his Department; the properties and land his Department has disposed of in the past ten years; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22482/13]

Reply: Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The list of property and land in Wicklow which my Department owns is outlined below. Some of these properties were acquired on the independence of the State and others were acquired in the intervening period. My Department has not disposed of any property or land in the Wicklow area in the past ten years.
Department of Defence Property and Land in Wicklow
Glen of Imaal Range (incl Range Warden's Post, Seskin)
Kilbride Camp
Coolmooney Camp and Lands
Kilpeddar Rifle Range, Bray
Rockbrae House and Lands, Bray

.........................................................................................................

Over 90 year-gap between independence and 2013, and instead of specific purchase date-years (at least) the reply on purchase dates is: Some of these properties were acquired on the independence of the State and others were acquired in the intervening period.

Hootanany · 15-02-2014 08:54PM

aloyisious wrote: »

I think Alan shatter is not very forthcoming with specific information when requested for it.

Question: Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
491. To ask the Minister for Defence if he will outline the complete list of properties and land that his Department owns in an area (details supplied) in County Wicklow; when the properties and land came into possession of his Department; the properties and land his Department has disposed of in the past ten years; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22482/13]

Reply: Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The list of property and land in Wicklow which my Department owns is outlined below. Some of these properties were acquired on the independence of the State and others were acquired in the intervening period. My Department has not disposed of any property or land in the Wicklow area in the past ten years.
Department of Defence Property and Land in Wicklow
Glen of Imaal Range (incl Range Warden's Post, Seskin)
Kilbride Camp
Coolmooney Camp and Lands
Kilpeddar Rifle Range, Bray
Rockbrae House and Lands, Bray

.........................................................................................................

Over 90 year-gap between independence and 2013, and instead of specific purchase date-years (at least) the reply on purchase dates is: Some of these properties were acquired on the independence of the State and others were acquired in the intervening period.

What am I looking at? Or for

tomwaterford · 15-02-2014 11:45PM

aloyisious wrote: »

One wonder's if the state has a list of retired "members" who performed activities for state agencies and Ministers in the past contactable for "nixers", purely for "theoretical security operational scenarios" only, of course (minister to underling - thank God they can't insist on written contracts, definitive proof, plausible deniability etc). "what, tapes! - you didn't frisk them on the way in???"

I don't even believe that

that doesn't even sound remotely real and I never trusted the government on this issue

lunatic stuff!!!

even to suggest it makes the counter argument against the government sound like a bunch of conspiracy dopes:pac::pac:

I would seriously mistrust this theory/have nothing to do with it TBH as it sounds like something put out to discredit those oppose.didnt fall for the position of government

Busted Flat. · 15-02-2014 11:59PM

Normally when something serious happens, the Gardai are quoted as saying " They are keeping an open mind on the situation", but in this situation they have a closed mind going by the response of the Commissioner. It is something to keep in mind when you hear the spokesman comment on the next situation. The utterance from the commissioner so far has done more damage to young people in the Garda than the Sunday Times.

Happyman42 · 16-02-2014 12:01AM

Does the Sunday Times publish online? If so what time?

tomwaterford · 16-02-2014 12:04AM

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Normally when something serious happens, the Gardai are quoted as saying " They are keeping an open mind on the situation", but in this situation they have a closed mind going by the response of the Commissioner. It is something to keep in mind when you hear the spokesman comment on the next situation. The utterance from the commissioner so far has done more damage to young people in the Garda than the Sunday Times.

id wonder and imagine the new recruits will be of higher calibre than present high ranking gaurds....they should IMO

you would wonder alright the only way commissioner could say them comments in all honesty is if he knows who did the bugging

Kaizersoze81 · 16-02-2014 12:06AM

aloyisious wrote: »

I think Alan shatter is not very forthcoming with specific information when requested for it.

Question: Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
491. To ask the Minister for Defence if he will outline the complete list of properties and land that his Department owns in an area (details supplied) in County Wicklow; when the properties and land came into possession of his Department; the properties and land his Department has disposed of in the past ten years; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22482/13]

Reply: Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The list of property and land in Wicklow which my Department owns is outlined below. Some of these properties were acquired on the independence of the State and others were acquired in the intervening period. My Department has not disposed of any property or land in the Wicklow area in the past ten years.
Department of Defence Property and Land in Wicklow
Glen of Imaal Range (incl Range Warden's Post, Seskin)
Kilbride Camp
Coolmooney Camp and Lands
Kilpeddar Rifle Range, Bray
Rockbrae House and Lands, Bray

.........................................................................................................

Over 90 year-gap between independence and 2013, and instead of specific purchase date-years (at least) the reply on purchase dates is: Some of these properties were acquired on the independence of the State and others were acquired in the intervening period.

What's your point?

stonebob · 16-02-2014 12:20AM

it could also be a smokescreen diverting peoples attention away from the really big story of anglo ...which involves the most powerful people in ireland politicians developers judges etc etc....and because of point of refrences in investigations and dodgy referendums will be kept well hidden ...the bugging story is a few years old waiting to be used at the right time ...

Busted Flat. · 16-02-2014 12:25AM

stonebob wrote: »

it could also be a smokescreen diverting peoples attention away from the really big story of anglo ...which involves the most powerful people in ireland politicians developers judges etc etc....and because of point of refrences in investigations and dodgy referendums will be kept well hidden ...the bugging story is a few years old waiting to be used at the right time ...

Ye Bob

tomwaterford · 16-02-2014 12:25AM

stonebob wrote: »

it could also be a smokescreen diverting peoples attention away from the really big story of anglo ...which involves the most powerful people in ireland politicians developers judges etc etc....and because of point of refrences in investigations and dodgy referendums will be kept well hidden ...the bugging story is a few years old waiting to be used at the right time ...

if it was a smokescreen....why did the government do there best to downplay it as much as possible,until it almost blew up in their face

how ever the anglo story is big...if this story can be proved to be as appears it'll make anglo appear as nothing

Sierra Oscar · 16-02-2014 12:30AM

stonebob wrote: »

it could also be a smokescreen diverting peoples attention away from the really big story of anglo ...which involves the most powerful people in ireland politicians developers judges etc etc....and because of point of refrences in investigations and dodgy referendums will be kept well hidden ...the bugging story is a few years old waiting to be used at the right time ...

The Anglo trial has been reported on extensively throughout the week. There was not a day when it did not feature in news bulletins or newspaper reports. I would imagine it will feature in all of the Sunday papers tomorrow too.

Fr. Ned · 16-02-2014 12:56AM

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article1376536.ece

Heads will roll.......

JONJO THE MISER · 16-02-2014 01:52AM

Quiet evident that it was the guards, it really shows how the guards think they can do what they want in this country.

Fr. Ned · 16-02-2014 01:58AM

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Quiet evident that it was the guards, it really shows how the guards think they can do what they want in this country.

This goes right to the top.

The relationship between the commissioner and the minister is unhealthy to say the least.....

kippy · 16-02-2014 01:59AM

Fr. Ned wrote: »

This goes right to the top.

The relationship between the commissioner and the minister is unhealty to say the least.....

I dont and cannot understand the commissioners public attitude to "whistleblowers" - it is an unhealthy attitude to have at best and something that should raise major concern at all levels.

Garda Ombudsman offices bugged

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