Garda Ombudsman offices bugged

Banjo String · 13-02-2014 08:24AM

Late debate podcast for anyone wishing to listen back on it.

I have a long drive ahead of me this morning. I think it will make more interesting listening than the usual 5 songs on the radio.

The shït has hit the fan for the Govt.

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/the-late-debate/podcasts/

DistanceVector · 13-02-2014 11:44AM

http://www.independent.ie/

Front page of the Indo. Can u see a missing story?

Traitors.

DistanceVector · 13-02-2014 11:52AM

For the record. Not one mention of the biggest story maybe in the history of the state. Look at the date, look at the paper and never buy it again.

imagen

who_ru · 13-02-2014 02:32PM

DistanceVector wrote: »

For the record. Not one mention of the biggest story maybe in the history of the state. Look at the date, look at the paper and never buy it again.

imagen

The Irish independent is totally totally biased and untrustworthy. It really is. You know automatically to discount it when looking for informative journalism. Remember one of their journos was sacked for originally writing about the penalty points controversy. Gemma Doherty is her name.

dxhound2005 · 13-02-2014 02:43PM

who_ru wrote: »

The Irish independent is totally totally biased and untrustworthy. It really is. You know automatically to discount it when looking for informative journalism. Remember one of their journos was sacked for originally writing about the penalty points controversy. Gemma Doherty is her name.

So can we trust the Sunday Times, which is part of the Murdoch empire. Their stock in trade, amongst many other egregious activities, is inducing public officials into misconduct in a public office. Inducing with cash that is, and some of those same officials are now doing time in the UK. As the saying goes, follow the money. Mooney has been getting leaks from inside the Gardai for years and now he has infiltrated the GSOC or their outside security company. I cannot believe that he is not paying for these stories.

Mooney and his sources are being portrayed by some people here as some sort of victims who are being subjected to a witch hunt. It's like saying that the journalist from the News of the World who paid for private information are the victims.

The whole bugging story is just a ball of smoke. As demonstrated by Mooney again on Morning Ireland today when he said it's impossible to prove because mondern espionage techniques do not leave a footprint. How convenient.

SpaceTime · 13-02-2014 02:50PM

I don't understand why some commentators seem to think that there should be a cozy and harmonious relationship between the GSOC and the Gardaí in the first place for.

The whole point of the GSOC is that it's there as a watchdog. The Gardaí don't need to like it for it to be effective any more than the Telecoms companies love ComReg or the banks love the Banking Regulator.

Checks and balances are often a bit confrontational that's how they tend to be effective.

Every organisation that has significant power needs external oversight. It's just one of those key and fundamental things that helps things to work well.

The fact that the GSOC's there and acts as an independent check and balance should be a huge benefit to the Gardaí as I am 100% confident that the vast majority of members want nothing more than a totally transparent force that they can be proud to be members of.

From my point of view as a regular citizen, the fact that the GSOC is very independent just makes me have *more* confidence in the Gardaí, not less.

brooke 2 · 13-02-2014 03:05PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

I don't understand why some commentators seem to think that there should be a cozy and harmonious relationship between the GSOC and the Gardaí in the first place for.

The whole point of the GSOC is that it's there as a watchdog. The Gardaí don't need to like it for it to be effective any more than the Telecoms companies love ComReg or the banks love the Banking Regulator.

Checks and balances are often a bit confrontational that's how they tend to be effective.

Every organisation that has significant power needs external oversight. It's just one of those key and fundamental things that helps things to work well.

The fact that the GSOC's there and acts as an independent check and balance should be a huge benefit to the Gardaí as I am 100% confident that the vast majority of members want nothing more than a totally transparent force that they can be proud to be members of.

From my point of view as a regular citizen, the fact that the GSOC is very indepedent just makes me have *more* confidence in the Gardaí, not less.

The problem is that the gardai are unwilling to cede any of the powers which they
presently have. They are fighting tooth and nail to hold on to every one of them.
In this they are being aided and abetted by the MoJ.

SpaceTime · 13-02-2014 03:10PM

brooke 2 wrote: »

The problem is that the gardai are unwilling to cede any of the powers which they
presently have. They are fighting tooth and nail to hold on to every one of them.
In this they are being aided and abetted by the MoJ.

I really don't know anything about the internal politics of it. However, it seems to me like they shouldn't be fighting tooth and nail over something that's potentially extremely good for the organisation.

Independent external oversight is an excellent thing for any police force and it really does make life much easier for them as an organisation.

I can understand there's always an element of dislike of 'outside interference' by any organisation. That's just how human psychology tends to work. However, having the GSOC is like a company having a good external auditor. In the long term it means that you've a far more robust organisation as you can't realistically see your own problems while you're embedded in a particular organisation.

I think both from a Garda point of view and a regular citizen's point of view, the GSOC should be seen as a positive thing really as it makes sure we've an independently verified police force. If anything it actually protects the Gardai as they can say "look - we are independently overseen by a very robust regulator and they say we're doing very well in this fully transparent report".
That gives them much higher standing as a police force in my opinion.

ScumLord · 13-02-2014 03:13PM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

So can we trust the Sunday Times,

No, you can't trust any newspaper. Not one of them.

brooke 2 · 13-02-2014 04:17PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

I really don't know anything about the internal politics of it. However, it seems to me like they shouldn't be fighting tooth and nail over something that's potentially extremely good for the organisation.

Independent external oversight is an excellent thing for any police force and it really does make life much easier for them as an organisation.

I can understand there's always an element of dislike of 'outside interference' by any organisation. That's just how human psychology tends to work. However, having the GSOC is like a company having a good external auditor. In the long term it means that you've a far more robust organisation as you can't realistically see your own problems while you're embedded in a particular organisation.

I think both from a Garda point of view and a regular citizen's point of view, the GSOC should be seen as a positive thing really as it makes sure we've an independently verified police force. If anything it actually protects the Gardai as they can say "look - we are independently overseen by a very robust regulator and they say we're doing very well in this fully transparent report".
That gives them much higher standing as a police force in my opinion.

Excellent post.

In an ideal world, the Garda Commissioner and the Minister of Justice would see it your way. Unfortunately, they very clearly do not.

tayto lover · 13-02-2014 04:24PM

brooke 2 wrote: »

Excellent post.

In an ideal world, the Garda Commissioner and the Minister of Justice would see it your way. Unfortunately, they very clearly do not.

As I have stated in many posts the problem is that the Garda Commissioner is appointed by the Minister and that is just not right.
The Commissioner should be appointed by an independent body and not be anyone's lapdog.

Santa Cruz · 13-02-2014 04:27PM

Political appointments are politicians puppets. All across the public sector is the same.
Number one rule. Don't embarrass the Minister

hatrickpatrick · 13-02-2014 04:28PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

Independent external oversight is an excellent thing for any police force and it really does make life much easier for them as an organisation.

For some of them, maybe they're used to certain rules simply not being enforced and they're now pissed because those rules will no longer have a blind eye turned to them? Just a guess.
Do you think the Gardai in Waterford would ever have been tried for that assault case had it been up to their fellow members to enforce the law on them? Bearing in mind that one of their colleagues who had nothing to do with the assault, decided to help cover it up by directing a CCTV camera away from the incident when he saw it in progress.

Call me cynical, but I reckon a lot of the resentment from individuals is from those individuals discovering that they are no longer above the law.

SpaceTime · 13-02-2014 04:33PM

Well, I'm just looking at it in a totally apolitical way and I think the same thing applies to every organisation and particularly those that have significant powers, that spend public money or that operate as regulated monopolies / oligopolies (e.g. banks, energy, telecoms etc)

The bigger and more complicated a corporate body gets and the more power it has, the more reason for having robust external oversight.

Having checks and balances is a very important concept in good public administration / public management practice. It's nothing controversial or new.

Part of the problem in Ireland has always been the government (executive) not being properly accountable to the Oireachtas for example because the system has become dysfunctional over the decades.

I think it's in absolutely everyone's best interests to ensure we don't shy away from proper external audits, checks and balances.

For example, had we had robust regulation, Anglo Irish Bank would still be around and wouldn't have needed a bail out.
It would have saved the tax payer a fortune and also protected the bank from self-destructive behaviour.

As a country, we've just been through hell and back and it's almost all down to lack of transparency, lack of robust regulation and inappropriate structures that don't safeguard against problems.

twowheelsgood · 13-02-2014 04:40PM

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Political appointments are politicians puppets. All across the public sector is the same.
Number one rule. Don't embarrass the Minister

So all our judges are puppets then?

For me, it's not such a big deal that government makes such appointments. What is important is that they have very limited powers to unmake them, as they do with judges.

Personally I favour the idea of an Oireachtas committee making these kind of appointments.

who_ru · 13-02-2014 05:54PM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

So can we trust the Sunday Times, which is part of the Murdoch empire. Their stock in trade, amongst many other egregious activities, is inducing public officials into misconduct in a public office. Inducing with cash that is, and some of those same officials are now doing time in the UK. As the saying goes, follow the money. Mooney has been getting leaks from inside the Gardai for years and now he has infiltrated the GSOC or their outside security company. I cannot believe that he is not paying for these stories.

Mooney and his sources are being portrayed by some people here as some sort of victims who are being subjected to a witch hunt. It's like saying that the journalist from the News of the World who paid for private information are the victims.

The whole bugging story is just a ball of smoke. As demonstrated by Mooney again on Morning Ireland today when he said it's impossible to prove because mondern espionage techniques do not leave a footprint. How convenient.

You are just like the govt on this, go after the people exposing wrong doing. Typical, hypocritical and incredibly cynical.

John Mooney in my opinion has done the people of this country a great service.

Do you think for a micro second that Alan Shatter, Enda Kenny both of whom have been lying to the media, people and parliament since this story broke would have exposed the surveillance of GSOC?

hatrickpatrick · 13-02-2014 06:28PM

twowheelsgood wrote: »

So all our judges are puppets then?

Not puppets, but one only has to look at some of their decisions following GSOC led convictions of AGS members to see that a lot of them - not all, but a lot - do tend to show a lot of sympathy to the establishment, where average Joe would be shown no such sympathy. This is certainly a problem, whether it originates from the fact that they're appointed by politicians is up for debate...

tayto lover · 13-02-2014 06:36PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Not puppets, but one only has to look at some of their decisions following GSOC led convictions of AGS members to see that a lot of them - not all, but a lot - do tend to show a lot of sympathy to the establishment, where average Joe would be shown no such sympathy. This is certainly a problem, whether it originates from the fact that they're appointed by politicians is up for debate...

Judges give lenient sentences full stop.

dxhound2005 · 13-02-2014 06:57PM

who_ru wrote: »

You are just like the govt on this, go after the people exposing wrong doing. Typical, hypocritical and incredibly cynical.

John Mooney in my opinion has done the people of this country a great service.

Do you think for a micro second that Alan Shatter, Enda Kenny both of whom have been lying to the media, people and parliament since this story broke would have exposed the surveillance of GSOC?

If he is exposing wrong, and all I see so far are vague innuendos, then he is doing it by getting information from Garda officers and now GSOC employees and/or their security consultants. Would you be happy if he is paying these parties? Should Garda officers be lining their pockets from selling him information?

As I said earlier this is how the Murdoch papers operate and ascribing some high minded public interest motive to Mooney is a bit much given the recent behaviour of his journalist colleagues in the group. He has a book out at the moment and he is no doubt making some nice money from his new found media profile.

hatrickpatrick · 13-02-2014 07:00PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Judges give lenient sentences full stop.

True, but I was specifically thinking to the following ridiculous incident:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/jail-too-hard-for-garda-judge-156095.html

The release of Dean Foley, who was on Thursday given an 18-month sentence, with 12 months suspended, for seriously assaulting a man, has been branded shocking and outrageous by Sinn Féin’s justice spokesman, Jonathan O’Brien.

Foley, a garda from Blarney, Co Cork, had his sentence fully suspended yesterday after Judge Seán Ó Donnabháin accepted a defence argument that prison time would be harder for a garda, as he would have to be “isolated” from the general prison population.

Mr O’Brien, a TD for Cork North Central, said the decision was unjust and unfair and amounted to immunity for gardaí who break the law. He said the decision reflected the mindset of sectors of society that believe that those in a position of power have more rights than ordinary people.

Foley, whose resignation from the force was accepted last night, was initially jailed for assaulting Stephen Murphy in Cork city centre in September 2009. The court heard Mr Murphy was knocked unconscious, suffered bleeding to the brain, broken teeth and broken bones to his face, and “got an unmerciful beating”.

Yesterday, however, Judge Ó Donnabháin suspended all of Foley’s sentence when it was re-entered at Cork Circuit Criminal Court.

“We are in a completely different place today than we were yesterday,” he said, after hearing from Donal O’Sullivan, defence barrister, on a point in mitigation that he had omitted from his submission on Thursday.

Mr O’Sullivan submitted yesterday “it is a much more difficult thing” for a garda or prison officer to serve a sentence.

“He will have to be isolated. He inevitably will spend a greater amount of time in his cell. He will have to be kept out of the general prison population. It will be a much more difficult sentence for him.

“Going by what I am told by prison officers, he will be taken to the Midlands Prison where there is a special section to hold him. He will have to be kept separate from other prisoners. Opportunity to mingle will not be there,” Mr O’Sullivan told the court.

“I will affirm the 18 months, and suspend the balance of it as from today,” the judge said.

Foley then walked free from court amid emotional family scenes.

who_ru · 13-02-2014 07:31PM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If he is exposing wrong, and all I see so far are vague innuendos, then he is doing it by getting information from Garda officers and now GSOC employees and/or their security consultants. Would you be happy if he is paying these parties? Should Garda officers be lining their pockets from selling him information?

As I said earlier this is how the Murdoch papers operate and ascribing some high minded public interest motive to Mooney is a bit much given the recent behaviour of his journalist colleagues in the group. He has a book out at the moment and he is no doubt making some nice money from his new found media profile.

John Mooney was on the late debate last night debating the issues, with an FG TD, the chair of the committee who hosted the GSOC reps yesterday, the head of the Irish Civil Liberties organisation.

I ask you to listen to this podcast (12/02/14)if you have time, approx 60mins.

Tell me then it's a bottle of smoke going on here.

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/the-late-debate/

aloyisious · 13-02-2014 10:09PM

Alan will be on Prime Time after the news to "tell" us all, get your popcorn in during the interval. And will appear before the Oireachtas Committee, definitely popcorn-time.

downonthefarm · 13-02-2014 10:12PM

aloyisious wrote: »

Alan will be on Prime Time after the news to "tell" us all, get your popcorn in during the interval.

Must have had feck all wells to poison earlier

sopretty · 13-02-2014 10:13PM

aloyisious wrote: »

Alan will be on Prime Time after the news to "tell" us all, get your popcorn in during the interval. And will appear before the Oireachtas Committee, definitely popcorn-time.

Would you believe a word out of his mouth?

tomwaterford · 13-02-2014 10:14PM

aloyisious wrote: »

Alan will be on Prime Time after the news to "tell" us all, get your popcorn in during the interval. And will appear before the Oireachtas Committee, definitely popcorn-time.

I have no rte tonight of all nights & internet is crap tonight:mad::mad::mad:

downonthefarm wrote: »

Must have had feck all wells to poison earlier

^^^I may be a little of of the loop WTF?

DistanceVector · 13-02-2014 10:31PM

I know this is not the politics sub section, but by fuk Ill keep bumping this thread to the top of AH if its the only worthwhile thing Ive done in my life...

DistanceVector · 13-02-2014 10:33PM

Sorry boards.ie, I love ye but here is ALL known data in one place:

http://www.politics.ie/forum/current-affairs/221883-garda-ombudsman-commission-office-infested-bugs.html

tomwaterford · 13-02-2014 10:34PM

have you ever looked into a possible xbox marathon

though that being said im delighted this story isn't after being buried let be passed off as nothing:D:D

CrowdedHouse · 13-02-2014 10:47PM

Times like these I miss Brian Farrell

Happyman42 · 13-02-2014 10:50PM

CrowdedHouse wrote: »

Times like these I miss Brian Farrell

No harm to her, but she is a lightweight, Shatter having a stroll in the park.

Garda Ombudsman offices bugged

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