Garda Ombudsman "under high-tech surveillance"

Sierra Oscar · 13-02-2014 01:24PM

Very interesting Leader's Questions in the Dáil just now. The Tánaiste is doing the rotation. Gilmore has refused to rule out that there was lawful surveillance of GSOC when he was asked a direct question by Mary Lou McDonald. He probably does not know either way in fairness.

raymon · 13-02-2014 01:24PM

edanto wrote: »

I agree with you that the findings of the consultant are not definitive. But there is clear blue water between findings that raise suspicions (which is where I believe we are), and two other conclusions.

One of those conclusions - "there is nothing to investigate", seems to be the view of Shatter, and I believe that is wrongly held. I'm relieved to read that you agree with the need for an independent investigation. That horse has well and truly bolted and we can be reasonably sure that any independent investigation will be restricted to reviewing the Verrimus report, just with the advantage of some alternative InfoSec expertise.

It's also clear that there is not enough evidence to reach a conclusion of certain bugging/surveillance. But that is exactly what GSOC have been saying all along!

The political support for GSOC from FG/Irish "Independent" has been appalling.

An independent investigation would be great . I don't believe that the horse has bolted. There would be a lot to be gained from critically reviewing the results and conducting the tests again .

edanto · 13-02-2014 01:25PM

Ah sure how could he rule it out? Wouldn't it be worse if the Tanaiste was privy to Garda operational details at that level?

Anyways, surely GSOC can just search PULSE to find out, with their newly granted unfettered access?

Sierra Oscar · 13-02-2014 01:27PM

edanto wrote: »

Ah sure how could he rule it out? Wouldn't it be worse if the Tanaiste was privy to Garda operational details at that level?

Anyways, surely GSOC can just search PULSE to find out, with their newly granted unfettered access?

I would have hoped that he would have asked the Minister for Justice that question beforehand, he knew he would be asked it.

Maybe he is too afraid to ask?

Phoebas · 13-02-2014 01:50PM

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I would have hoped that he would have asked the Minister for Justice that question beforehand, he knew he would be asked it.

Maybe he is too afraid to ask?

Or maybe he knew that he could only get a non conclusive answer from the Tanaiste and that the kind of answer that suited him.

tayto lover · 13-02-2014 01:58PM

raymon wrote: »

Im definitely not trying to shield the government from embarrassment. I don't like Alan Shatter at all and would love for him to be demoted at some stage.

Im just surprised at the level of guessing and supposing being presented as fact .

Me too.
I'd love if this uncaring Govt fell (even though the last one was worse). Cnuts.
However there are many posters taking all these newspaper reports as fact and very few of these "facts" have been proven.

Sierra Oscar · 13-02-2014 01:58PM

Phoebas wrote: »

Or maybe he knew that he could only get a non conclusive answer from the Tanaiste and that the kind of answer that suited him.

At the very end of the contribution he said that he was "satisfied" that no state surveillance took place. Chose not to use the word "certain", someone should put that specific question to Minister Shatter to clear up that line of confusion.

bajer101 · 13-02-2014 01:59PM

raymon wrote: »

An independent investigation would be great . I don't believe that the horse has bolted. There would be a lot to be gained from critically reviewing the results and conducting the tests again .

Conducting the tests again!! You do realise that the eavesdroppers packed up shop when they realised that they had been detected.

bajer101 · 13-02-2014 02:02PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Me too.
I'd love if this uncaring Govt fell (even though the last one was worse). Cnuts.
However there are many posters taking all these newspaper reports as fact and very few of these "facts" have been proven.

John Mooney has a copy of the Verrimus report. Simon O'Brien confirmed at the Oireactas hearing yesterday that the Sunday Times article was so accurate that it was obvious that they had a copy of the report. So they pretty much are facts. It will be published on Sunday anyway.

raymon · 13-02-2014 02:05PM

bajer101 wrote: »

Conducting the tests again!! You do realise that the eavesdroppers packed up shop when they realised that they had been detected.

It is your opinion that there were eavesdroppers . Definitely not mine

tayto lover · 13-02-2014 02:06PM

bajer101 wrote: »

John Mooney has a copy of the Verrimus report. Simon O'Brien confirmed at the Oireactas hearing yesterday that the Sunday Times article was so accurate that it was obvious that they had a copy of the report. So they pretty much are facts. It will be published on Sunday anyway.

I wonder does it say who was responsible?

Rawhead · 13-02-2014 02:08PM

I've never posted in the politics forum before and I was hoping that given the enormity of the thread we are discussing that I might have found some genuine debate, instead this is what I've found .
Gob****es from FG ignoring the elephant in the room and defending the party at all costs.
Gob****es from FF using the situation to further their political agenda and using it as a stick against the government .
Gob****es from the Lab, SF and other assorted cabbages throwing in the odd scud.

Meanwhile there is clear mounting evidence that our national police force AGS has carried out surveillance on the ombudsman's office tasked by the people of Ireland to oversee its activities.

To think that my grandparents fought and suffered inprisonment for this. Ye're a revolting shower of ****ers.

Sierra Oscar · 13-02-2014 02:08PM

Broadsheet have put up a transcript of RTÉ's Late Debate last night.

The Appalling Vista

Last night Mr Mooney, who broke the GSOC bugging story last Sunday; Padraig MacLochlainn, Sinn Féin Donegal TD; Michelle Mulherin, Fine Gael Mayo TD; and Mark Kelly, director of the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, appeared on RTÉ’s Late Debate with Audrey Carville last night to talk about the story.

During their discussion, Mr Mooney set out to explain what he believed was behind the surveillance, while also accusing the Fine Gael/Labour coalition of trying to cover up the story ...

Rawhead wrote: »

To think that my grandparents fought and suffered inprisonment for this. Ye're a revolting shower of ****ers.

Why don't you do something about it then instead of moaning to us in an online forum?

bajer101 · 13-02-2014 02:11PM

raymon wrote: »

It is your opinion that there were eavesdroppers . Definitely not mine

It is my opinion, it is the opinion of Simon O'Brien and all at GSOC. It is the opinion of John Mooney of the The Sunday Times who has a copy of the Verrimus report. It is the opinion of Verrimus the security experts who were recommended by GSOC's UK counterpart. It is the opinion of Mick Clifford of The Examiner. It is the opinion of Ivan Yates and the other broadcasters on Newstalk. It is the opinion of Matt Cooper. It is the opinion of Mark Kelly of the Irish Council for Civil Liberties. It is the opinion of countless others - but you go ahead and stick your head in the sand and ignore all the evidence. If I am ever on trial for a crime and the preponderance of evidence is against me, I hope you are on the jury!

bajer101 · 13-02-2014 02:12PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I wonder does it say who was responsible?

No. But it does say that the equipment used was of a type that is only available to State agencies.

cruasder777 · 13-02-2014 02:13PM

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Ill leave this here - “Black Ops Being Run Off The Books”

Mooney did not just show up out of the blue with this story. This latest incident has been linked to the Kieran Boylan case on a number of occasions this week, and also just now by a former GSOC Commissioner who is talking on RTÉ Radio 1.

There seems to be a lack of operational accountability when dealing with informers, international drug traffickers etc, in other countries this has proven to lead to corruption and major public inquiries and an overhaul in accountability.

The Garda dont seem to want to embrace modern Policing practices in dealing with informers etc.

Why ?

In time there will be a massive change in Garda culture but they will fight being fully accountable tooth and nail.

Phoebas · 13-02-2014 02:15PM

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

At the very end of the contribution he said that he was "satisfied" that no state surveillance took place. Chose not to use the word "certain", someone should put that specific question to Minister Shatter to clear up that line of confusion.

Shatter will probably say that he doesn't discuss operational matters - that'll liven things up.

tayto lover · 13-02-2014 02:15PM

bajer101 wrote: »

No. But it does say that the equipment used was of a type that is only available to State agencies.

But an expert on Vincent Browne the other night said it was easy enough to get this type of equipment.
Didn't the News of the World use high spec equipment to tap phones etc?

DublinWriter · 13-02-2014 02:23PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Didn't the News of the World use high spec equipment to tap phones etc?

Nope. It relied on the fact that most people didn't change the default pin code to access their voicemail.

bajer101 · 13-02-2014 02:26PM

tayto lover wrote: »

But an expert on Vincent Browne the other night said it was easy enough to get this type of equipment.
Didn't the News of the World use high spec equipment to tap phones etc?

Declan Power most certainly did not state that this type of equipment is easy enough to get. He said that there are certain types of equipment that are available. Anyway, that was before the exact details of the three anomalies were made public. We now know that there was an IMSI man-in-the middle GSM attack and that the surveillance on the landline was extremely sophisticated. This is worlds apart from NOTW hacking scandal which in most cases was little more than guessing people's PIN.

Verrimus are the experts. They said they believed GSOC was hacked and that the equipment used was only available to State level agencies. End of. Everything else is just political nonsense.

Rawhead · 13-02-2014 02:27PM

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Why don't you do something about it then instead of moaning to us in an online forum?

I did do something about it, I voted your shower of knackers out of office and I'll vote this shower out as well. I'll keep voting out degenerates until we get something resembling a transparent democracy.

And as for the Munson who said they should go back and redo the tests, he's either trolling or we need to find out where they live and sterilise them quickly so as to avoid them ever ever ever breeding.

Scofflaw · 13-02-2014 02:28PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Me too.
I'd love if this uncaring Govt fell (even though the last one was worse). Cnuts.
However there are many posters taking all these newspaper reports as fact and very few of these "facts" have been proven.

There's a difference between accepting that a good deal of what's been in the debate has not been proven, and claiming that absence of proof is proof of absence.

Either way, unfortunately, the government have mishandled this badly.

cordially,
Scofflaw

cruasder777 · 13-02-2014 02:29PM

bajer101 wrote: »

Declan Power most certainly did not state that this type of equipment is easy enough to get. He said that there are certain types of equipment that are available. Anyway, that was before the exact details of the three anomalies were made public. We now know that there was an IMSI man-in-the middle GSM attack and that the surveillance on the landline was extremely sophisticated. This is worlds apart from NOTW hacking scandal which in most cases was little more than guessing people's PIN.

Verrimus are the experts. They said they believed GSOC was hacked and that the equipment used was only available to State level agencies. End of. Everything else is just political nonsense.

Exactly, Im going to take the opinion of Varrimus over armchair security experts.

Rawhead · 13-02-2014 02:35PM

cruasder777 wrote: »

There seems to be a lack of operational accountability when dealing with informers, international drug traffickers etc, in other countries this has proven to lead to corruption and major public inquiries and an overhaul in accountability.

The Garda dont seem to want to embrace modern Policing practices in dealing with informers etc.

Why ?

In time there will be a massive change in Garda culture but they will fight being fully accountable tooth and nail.

Interesting you say that. I was listening to a retired assistant commissioner on Pat Kenny yesterday and he complained that GSOC has never understood the Gardai and they way they handle cases. Now given that all the GSOC investigators are former middle and high ranking policemen from the UK, AUS, NZ,USA, Hong Kong and such why would they fail to understand how the Gardai work? Does our police force differ from the rest of the world in how they operate and if so why?
The breakdown in relations between GSOC and AGS started when they began investigating the Boylan case. Up until then it was really only cases of excessive force and such. The Boylan case involved high ranking officers in Harcourt square and they obviously don't like being investigated.

Scofflaw · 13-02-2014 02:36PM

Rawhead wrote: »

I did do something about it, I voted your shower of knackers out of office and I'll vote this shower out as well. I'll keep voting out degenerates until we get something resembling a transparent democracy.

And as for the Munson who said they should go back and redo the tests, he's either trolling or we need to find out where they live and sterilise them quickly so as to avoid them ever ever ever breeding.

This, and your earlier post, are not acceptable. Bans and infractions will be applied in this thread as in others, whichever side of the debate you're on.

If any poster is frustrated by other posters taking the official line, or using the situation for party advantage rather than addressing the potentially serious issues being raised, please get it out of your system before posting here.

If any poster on any side feels they cannot possibly debate the issue in a temperate manner, and rather than risk penalties chooses to leave the debate, I regret that, but it cannot be helped.

Finally, the official line is the official line, the party lines are the party lines. Those are the real public debate, because they are being officially promulgated by sections of the media and by the representatives of political parties. You must deal with them as they are, rather than simply attacking people for holding those opinions.

moderately,
Scofflaw

cruasder777 · 13-02-2014 02:45PM

Rawhead wrote: »

Interesting you say that. I was listening to a retired assistant commissioner on Pat Kenny yesterday and he complained that GSOC has never understood the Gardai and they way they handle cases. Now given that all the GSOC investigators are former middle and high ranking policemen from the UK, AUS, NZ,USA, Hong Kong and such why would they fail to understand how the Gardai work? Does our police force differ from the rest of the world in how they operate and if so why?
The breakdown in relations between GSOC and AGS started when they began investigating the Boylan case. Up until then it was really only cases of excessive force and such. The Boylan case involved high ranking officers in Harcourt square and they obviously don't like being investigated.

I think its a cultural thing, a conservative Catholic culture, historically isolationist, slow to embrace change.

We had Magdalene laundries up until 96, ffs !

The thing is since the downfall of the church, people now expect transparency. You cant stop progress.

bajer101 · 13-02-2014 02:47PM

Scofflaw wrote: »

Finally, the official line is the official line, the party lines are the party lines. Those are the real public debate, because they are being officially promulgated by sections of the media and by the representatives of political parties. You must deal with them as they are, rather than simply attacking people for holding those opinions.

moderately,
Scofflaw

This stifles debate too much IMO. The Late Debate on RTE Radio 1 last night was some of the best Radio I have ever heard. Part of the reason it was so good was that John Mooney did attack Michelle Mulherin for holding those opinions. If its ok to do it on RTE, it should be ok here.

Rawhead · 13-02-2014 02:55PM

The other big problem in any debate like this that questions AGS is the crime correspondents whom masquerade as impartial journalists.
They are not nor can they be impartial as they have a parasitic relationship with the police. They rely on them for the info that they use to make a living.
Hence you see RTE's crime correspondent taking the party line on the 9 o'clock news attacking the leak as well as the Indo taking the same line yesterday and today.

Sierra Oscar · 13-02-2014 02:57PM

Rawhead wrote: »

Hence you see RTE's crime correspondent taking the party line on the 9 o'clock news attacking the leak as well as the Indo taking the same line yesterday and today.

Which is ironic considering the amount of private policing information that is leaked to Reynolds to facilitate his journalism. He has a problem with information being leaked from GSOC to a journalist, but has no problem with information from within An Garda Síochána being leaked directly to him. He actively boasts about his contacts within the security forces.

bajer101 · 13-02-2014 03:04PM

Paul Williams is another gem. He attacked John Mooney describing him as merely a "conduit". Williams' journalistic skills obviously don't stretch to understanding the concept of irony.

There is nothing about this on the front page of the Indo today. The Examiner is the go to paper now for impartial reporting.

Garda Ombudsman "under high-tech surveillance"

Comments