Garda Ombudsman "under high-tech surveillance"

Sierra Oscar · 13-02-2014 12:17AM

Irish Examiner leading with the front page story "Bugging of Office 'May Have Been Authorized'"

You know this story is going to be massive when it beats the worst Irish storm in decades to the front of the paper.

edanto · 13-02-2014 12:39AM

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Irish Examiner leading with the front page story "Bugging of Office 'May Have Been Authorized'"
.

I hope they have more to go on than just what O'Brien said earlier at committee. It didn't sound like he said much other than to confirm that a lawful surveillance was possible and that he had not asked that exact question of the Minister or Commissioner.

Phoebas · 13-02-2014 12:43AM

edanto wrote: »

I hope they have more to go on than just what O'Brien said earlier at committee. It didn't sound like he said much other than to confirm that a lawful surveillance was possible and that he had not asked that exact question of the Minister or Commissioner.

A paper never refused ink.

Sierra Oscar · 13-02-2014 01:32AM

RTÉ Radio One's Late Debate this discussed this issue in depth tonight, and the journalist responsible for breaking the story and providing future updates was on the panel. I would recommend that anyone following this story, and who is interested in getting an insight, to listen to it here.

Judging by the way things have developed today, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some more surprises in store with this scandal yet.

Statement by Public Service Oversight Committee following meeting with GSOC

The Chairman of the Committee Pádraig Mac Lochlainn TD has confirmed the following:

The Committee has grave concerns about some of the issues raised during the detailed discussions with the Garda Ombudsman Commissioners. Serious questions remain unanswered.

Reflecting on the need for further consideration of these matters, the Committee has decided:

To contact the GSOC requesting the unredacted reports by security company Verrimus, and any other related information in connection with the investigation into suspected surveillance at GSOC offices, be made available to the Committee on a confidential basis,

and

To invite the Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence Alan Shatter TD to address the Committee on these developments and to assess the approach he and his Department propose to take to respond to the concerns raised.

The Committee is undertaking this process conscious of the need to secure public confidence in the administration of justice.

ENDS

This will be gotten to the bottom of yet. There must be a full independent inquiry to facilitate this. This story has been running for five days now, and we still don't have proper clarity. All we know is that the government have actively tried to drown out debate by misquoting legislation and pressuring GSOC.

raymon · 13-02-2014 01:36AM

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Irish Examiner leading with the front page story "Bugging of Office 'May Have Been Authorized'"

You know this story is going to be massive when it beats the worst Irish storm in decades to the front of the paper.

Here is the actual story.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/bugging-of-gsoc-office-may-have-been-authorised-258634.html

Another headline built out of smoke.

Your party does seem desperate to keep this story alive.

Carry on. It is quite entertaining

Chiparus · 13-02-2014 02:33AM

I would say I was generally a FG/PD supporter and I certainly find the suggestion that the gardai were in some way involved in the legal surveillance of the ombudsman deeply disturbing.

EireGun · 13-02-2014 03:18AM

Going Forward wrote: »

Verrimus seems to be a very small outfit.

That's nonsense... Here's an article about the firm investing half a million pounds in a counterintelligence training centre in the UK, with 1,000 students a year: http://www.thejournal.co.uk/business/business-news/verrimus-ltd-invest-new-north-4392995

They also expect to generate £1.2m over the next 36 months. They are involved in financial, legal, oil and gas, defence and aerospace sectors. Its Government clients are from Europe, Asia and the Middle East. It conducted technical counterespionage tasks for the London olympics. Big outfit.

Scofflaw · 13-02-2014 04:20AM

Hmm. Examiner article:

In explosive evidence to an Oireachtas committee, Simon O’Brien directly contradicted Justice Minister Alan Shatter’s statement to the Dáil on the controversy in a number of key respects.

Branding the affair a “crisis”, Mr O’Brien said he suspected the Garda Siochána Ombudsman Commission (GSOC) had been put under electronic surveillance and that he could not rule out gardaí being suspects.

This goes against Mr Shatter’s assertion to TDs that no bugging had taken place and the gardaí had been subjected to “baseless innuendo”.

Mr Shatter’s claim that the security sweep of GSOC offices was “routine” was also at odds with Mr O’Brien’s evidence that it had been sparked by serious concerns about breaches of “confidentially”.

Mr O’Brien told the Oireachtas Oversight Committee: “I fully informed the minister of everything that had happened.”

The ombudsman said that he had not asked Mr Shatter or Garda commissioner Martin Callinan if the surveillance had been authorised.

Pressed on whether he believed it had been authorised, Mr O’Brien said: “We have no idea if that piece of capability was being used lawfully.”

He said gardaí became suspects after the first two security threats were uncovered following secret, late-night surveillance sweeps at GSOC headquarters.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/bugging-of-gsoc-office-may-have-been-authorised-258634.html

And the IT:

As the man in the eye of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission (GSOC) bugging storm yesterday relayed his version of events in full, the words of Taoiseach Enda Kenny and Minister for Justice Alan Shatter on the controversy were coming under renewed focus.

The Government has tried as hard as it could in recent days to convince the public that allegations of spying, bugging, surveillance, anomalies – call them what you will – at GSOC were all a puff of smoke and that the Garda force and its watchdog can put it all behind them and live happily ever after.

Shatter has told the Dáil that despite the very specific detail that has entered the public domain since the weekend, GSOC had found “no definitive evidence” of surveillance on its offices, adding all that had been uncovered was “potential threats or vulnerabilities”.

But if you listened carefully to GSOC chairman Simon O’Brien yesterday, his account of what has been found goes much further than that offered by Shatter.

O’Brien and his colleagues are resolute in their belief they have seen evidence that very strongly indicates they were placed under surveillance.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/gsoc-s-account-of-bugging-evidence-does-not-tally-with-that-of-minister-1.1689432

The attempts to downplay the matter from every angle possible are looking thinner and thinner, and may yet come back to bite the Minister and Taoiseach.

I'm not sure that a strategy of "blame the victim" and the immediate attack was the best way to handle this. I would have thought the traditional 'grave concern' approach - "of course, we take this matter very seriously, and any possible bugging will totally be investigated, de blah de blah anodyne report in about 9 months time" might have been a better choice.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Nodin · 13-02-2014 06:21AM

As we seem to be veering from definite "government level" bugging to possible suspected bugging to no bugging at all at all, it's all rather odd.

edanto · 13-02-2014 08:21AM

Nodin wrote: »

As we seem to be veering from definite "government level" bugging to possible suspected bugging to no bugging at all at all, it's all rather odd.

Genuine question, did you read the whole thread or just a newspaper?

Phoebas · 13-02-2014 08:39AM

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Irish Examiner leading with the front page story "Bugging of Office 'May Have Been Authorized'"

You know this story is going to be massive when it beats the worst Irish storm in decades to the front of the paper.

Its a pretty tenuous link between content and front page headline.

Pressed on whether he believed it had been authorised, Mr O’Brien said: “We
have no idea if that piece of capability was being used lawfully.”

Frank Lee Midere · 13-02-2014 09:06AM

The same overall company (i.e Telefonica) isn't the same as the same local company or rules. Here is what O2 say on roaming.

Answer is no. O2-IE is a completely independent business to O2-UK and therefore Roaming Charges would apply.
O2-IE (O2 Ireland) and O2-UK (O2 United Kingdom) are both Part of the Telefonica Group, but this is all and is 2 Separate businesses

Do I need to Activate Roaming?
If you are an O2 PAYG Customer then Roaming is activated automatically as you can only spend what you have in Credit.
O2 Contract customers may need to call 202 to confirm they have Roaming Activated on their account if they have never used the service before or had issues in the past.

How does Roaming Work?
When you travel outside your Home Network, your Mobile Phone Sim will ask the Roaming (Foreign) network first if it can use the services on their Network. (You IMEI number of your phone is also sent to verify it’s not the Stolen / Missing Database as well)

The Foreign Network will take details from your Sim card and go back to the International Centre and check if O2 has an agreement first to use the Network and then if the Sim card is activated to use the Roaming. (This is why there is a delay sometimes in first switching on your mobile to you getting a signal and a Network Name)

If all comes back ok, then the Sim will receive instruction and you notice the Roaming Network Name shown on your phone.

What you may not know is that when the phone is authorised to use the Roaming Network, It is given a temporary allocated foreign number of the country you are visiting.

So you may have someone calling you and they may notice that the Ring tone suddenly sounds different in their Earpiece and not like the UK Ring. This is because of the Foreign Number allocated and that you are roaming on their Countries Network.

One this you will never know though is the Temporary Roaming Number as this is only a Forward number and changes.

It's probably the lack of your signal not the strength of any other which will make the phone try to talk to towers which aren't owning by your carrier thinking it is abroad. Only then - when the other towers are foreign - will it switch on roaming. It clearly says "outside your home network" and roaming only applies abroad. You never roam at home where lack of coverage means no signal (otherwise it would benefit carriers to have no coverage as they could leach off the guys with coverage and charge roaming).

As to how it knows it's at home, it's not GPS so probably just the lack of a response from home towers.

I don't think O2 has any special relationship or shared code between the UK and Ireland. It's just a brand name.

Banjo String · 13-02-2014 09:33AM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

The same overall company (i.e Telefonica) isn't the same as the same local company or rules. Here is what O2 say on roaming.

Answer is no. O2-IE is a completely independent business to O2-UK and therefore Roaming Charges would apply.
O2-IE (O2 Ireland) and O2-UK (O2 United Kingdom) are both Part of the Telefonica Group, but this is all and is 2 Separate businesses

Do I need to Activate Roaming?
If you are an O2 PAYG Customer then Roaming is activated automatically as you can only spend what you have in Credit.
O2 Contract customers may need to call 202 to confirm they have Roaming Activated on their account if they have never used the service before or had issues in the past.

How does Roaming Work?
When you travel outside your Home Network, your Mobile Phone Sim will ask the Roaming (Foreign) network first if it can use the services on their Network. (You IMEI number of your phone is also sent to verify it’s not the Stolen / Missing Database as well)

The Foreign Network will take details from your Sim card and go back to the International Centre and check if O2 has an agreement first to use the Network and then if the Sim card is activated to use the Roaming. (This is why there is a delay sometimes in first switching on your mobile to you getting a signal and a Network Name)

If all comes back ok, then the Sim will receive instruction and you notice the Roaming Network Name shown on your phone.

What you may not know is that when the phone is authorised to use the Roaming Network, It is given a temporary allocated foreign number of the country you are visiting.

So you may have someone calling you and they may notice that the Ring tone suddenly sounds different in their Earpiece and not like the UK Ring. This is because of the Foreign Number allocated and that you are roaming on their Countries Network.

One this you will never know though is the Temporary Roaming Number as this is only a Forward number and changes.

It's probably the lack of your signal not the strength of any other which will make the phone try to talk to towers which aren't owning by your carrier thinking it is abroad. Only then - when the other towers are foreign - will it switch on roaming. It clearly says "outside your home network" and roaming only applies abroad. You never roam at home where lack of coverage means no signal (otherwise it would benefit carriers to have no coverage as they could leach off the guys with coverage and charge roaming).

As to how it knows it's at home, it's not GPS so probably just the lack of a response from home towers.

I don't think O2 has any special relationship or shared code between the UK and Ireland. It's just a brand name.

I know from experience that if you're in say, Portstewart your phone will regularly switch to O2.ie (Donegal peninsula)

O2 ire and UK both use 2100 frequency AFAIK.

Though in saying that, I'd often get a roaming text. If this tower was set up in a 'Govt level' it Prob wouldn't be too difficult to program the spoof tower not to send this text by default. Ditto broadcast the Network carrier (so anyone might be unaware what network they were on)

Just my two cents.

zagmund · 13-02-2014 09:40AM

Don't forget that the Verrimus folks would be using UK mobiles. Maybe someone was trying to intercept their traffic, although that would be a bit wacky from anyone who knew they were there, why they were there and what they would be checking for. Unless of course they didn't realise that Verrimus would be checking for mobile network issues and didn't think it would be spotted.

On the "conference phone that rang by itself" thing . . . a lot of the discussion talks of "a call was made to the phone" after the test signal was sent down the line. What people seem to have forgotten these days is that almost everything is virtual in the telephony world. A bell (which isn't a bell any more and hasn't been for decades) ringing on a phone doesn't mean that someone/something initiated a phone call to the number assigned to the phone. All it means is that the phone itself got some sort of signalling which convinced it that it needed to ring the bell. If you think that some bugging equipment down the line can be fooled into actually dialling the number and ringing the phone then I think the spys need to change equipment supplier. I'm not saying it's impossible, but just that if I wanted to do some covert surveillance and I had some equipment which could be fooled/convinced to give away its presence then it would be pretty useless for covert activity.

Back on the mobile issue - if someone had a fake UK tower, what's to say they wouldn't have a fake Irish tower *also*? Unless I'm missing something this would just show up as yet another local tower and wouldn't necessarily stick out unless someone had the identifiers for all the towers in the area. I think the identifiers are public domain (or at least published by the providers on their maps) so this information could well be known.

Meantime the various representative bodies are very, very noticeable by their silence since Tuesday. They couldn't get enough air time then but seem to have gone to ground since.

z

cruasder777 · 13-02-2014 10:01AM

It was a 'false tower' that picks up the signal and mines it for information Orbit v2. It's 'GOVERNMENT LEVEL' surveillance technology. It is in effect a shadow mobile network designed to target phones within a certain small area.

It was most likely an official covert op. Either by Shatter or senior Garda. Hence the attempt at a cover up over defensive response.

Rogue Garda could not deploy such technology without others being aware.

raymon · 13-02-2014 10:09AM

cruasder777 wrote: »

It was a 'false tower' that picks up the signal and mines it for information Orbit v2. It's 'GOVERNMENT LEVEL' surveillance technology. It is in effect a shadow mobile network designed to target phones within a certain small area.

It was most likely an official covert op. Either by Shatter or senior Garda. Hence the attempt at a cover up over defensive response.

Rogue Garda could not deploy such technology without others being aware.

But was it really? How do you know?

The ombudsman isn't sure, has new credible evidence emerged?

cruasder777 · 13-02-2014 10:18AM

raymon wrote: »

But was it really? How do you know?

The ombudsman isn't sure, has new credible evidence emerged?

The Ombudsmans office is playing it down to save their careers. Remember the govt is claiming its they who at fault.

You tell me what civilians have the ability to have this level of technology ? Shadow phone masts, networks etc.

The security company whos report is now being played down are world experts in this stuff. I think I will take their word over OGS and Shatter.

They said the chances of some of their findings being a coincidence are virtually zero.

Phoebas · 13-02-2014 10:26AM

cruasder777 wrote: »

It was a 'false tower' that picks up the signal and mines it for information Orbit v2.

This is new information (new to me anyway). What's the source?

Shady Tady · 13-02-2014 10:29AM

cruasder777 wrote: »

The Ombudsmans office is playing it down to save their careers. Remember the govt is claiming its they who at fault.

You tell me what civilians have the ability to have this level of technology ? Shadow phone masts, networks etc.

The security company whos report is now being played down are world experts in this stuff. I think I will take their word over OGS and Shatter.

They said the chances of some of their findings being a coincidence are virtually zero.

There is an allocation in the budget each year for secret service or something like that, no one seems to know who they are, surely they are government level and might be keeping the minister up todate on both the garda and ombudsman. Think we cannot rule these guys out or the army who come under shatter as well. There is clearly an attempt to cover this up. This government is way more corrupt than a combination of Fianna fails worst down through the years.

raymon · 13-02-2014 10:31AM

cruasder777 wrote: »

The Ombudsmans office is playing it down to save their careers. Remember the govt is claiming its they who at fault.

You tell me what civilians have the ability to have this level of technology ? Shadow phone masts, networks etc.

The security company whos report is now being played down are world experts in this stuff. I think I will take their word over OGS and Shatter.

They said the chances of some of their findings being a coincidence are virtually zero.

Where did the government say that it was the ombudsmans fault?

Do we know that there were "Shadow phone masts, networks etc."? Where is this stated ?

What coincidence was virtually zero ? Do you mean the phone ringing?

You seem to be stating a lot of things as fact but there has been no evidence to support any of what you say .

I am no fan of Shatter and wouldn't care if he jumped in a lake , but shouldn't we use facts instead of guesses.

Shady Tady · 13-02-2014 10:34AM

raymon wrote: »

Where did the government say that it was the ombudsmans fault?

Do we know that there were "Shadow phone masts, networks etc."? Where is this stated ?

What coincidence was virtually zero ? Do you mean the phone ringing?

You seem to be stating a lot of things as fact but there has been no evidence to support any of what you say .

I am no fan of Shatter and wouldn't care if he jumped in a lake , but shouldn't we use facts instead of guesses.

Maybe it was when shatter brought o brien in for a dressing down and he came out with this tail between his legs!

MilanPan!c · 13-02-2014 10:38AM

raymon wrote: »

Where did the government say that it was the ombudsmans fault?

Do we know that there were "Shadow phone masts, networks etc."? Where is this stated ?

What coincidence was virtually zero ? Do you mean the phone ringing?

You seem to be stating a lot of things as fact but there has been no evidence to support any of what you say .

I am no fan of Shatter and wouldn't care if he jumped in a lake , but shouldn't we use facts instead of guesses.

Gov is blaming GSOC for leak of security report. As is GSOC.

Shadow masts? Maybe not masts, but a fake 3G network which allowed someone to potentially mine data from UK phones. Bearing in mind that - as was discussed in the hearing yesterday - these sort of spoofed towers could be easily switched to Irish mobile networks.

The non-coincidence was the audio test signal trigger the conference room phone to ring.

There's evidence for all of this.

Sierra Oscar · 13-02-2014 10:43AM

raymon wrote: »

Where did the government say that it was the ombudsmans fault?

Emm, have you being listening to government Ministers and TD's responding to this issue in recent days?

They have tried to pour cold water on this by claiming that there is no basis to say that bugging ever took place, which has now been contradicted by GSOC.

While they were putting forward that line they tried to put the blame on GSOC by questioning as to how the report ended up with the media. Then we had the leader of our country deliberately misinterpret legislation, on multiple occasions both in the Dáil and outside of it, to try and bring this story to an end. He didn't ask the question as to why GSOC might not have felt comfortable approaching one of his ministers to report the bugging incident.

raymon · 13-02-2014 10:43AM

MilanPan!c wrote: »

There's evidence for all of this.

Great .!!!!

Glad to hear someone has evidence to back up their claims.
I for one would like to get to the bottom of it without the speculation and guessing.

Do you have a link to your evidence.

MilanPan!c · 13-02-2014 10:52AM

raymon wrote: »

Great .!!!!

Glad to hear someone has evidence to back up their claims.
I for one would like to get to the bottom of it without the speculation and guessing.

Do you have a link to your evidence.

Sure, simply go watch yesterday's four-hour hearing... every claim made by the ST in confirmed by the GSOC... so unless you think they're lying...

raymon · 13-02-2014 10:53AM

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Emm, have you being listening to government Ministers and TD's responding to this issue in recent days?

They have tried to pour cold water on this by claiming that there is no basis to say that bugging ever took place, which has now been contradicted by GSOC.

While they were putting forward that line they tried to put the blame on GSOC by questioning as to how the report ended up with the media. Then we had the leader of our country deliberately misinterpret legislation, on multiple occasions both in the Dáil and outside of it, to try and bring this story to an end. He didn't ask the question as to why GSOC might not have felt comfortable approaching one of his ministers to report the bugging incident.

GSOC doesn't know if bugging took place. They suspect an internal mole now.

MilanPan!c · 13-02-2014 10:59AM

raymon wrote: »

GSOC doesn't know if bugging took place. They suspect an internal mole now.

Not paying attention are you?

They ONLY think a mole was behind leaking the report.

The report categorically stated that there was bugging, and the GSOC took the report at face value, except in one instance, where one person in GSOC decided to not trust that the evidence for bugging met his personal threshhold of 100% certainty.. his personal threshold... the security team however disagreed.

Saying that, GSOC took it seriously enough to stop using mobile phones and to stop holding important meetings in their building.. because they thought the chances of snooping was that great...

You obviously have some sort of bias that's causing you to deliberately mis-state the facts, but it's not helpful... sure if you're that worried about your political party, best to find out the truth about this...

To restate for absolute clarity:

No one is GSOC thinks someone IN GSOC was setting up a spoof 3g network...

Claiming that GSOC thinks that makes you look like some sort of propaganda machine..

Sierra Oscar · 13-02-2014 10:59AM

Also, Mooney stated last night that he believes that he is under criminal investigation regarding his activities with this story.

This is deeply alarming in my mind, as it is clearly in the public interest that this story come into the public domain considering the circumstances.

MilanPan!c · 13-02-2014 11:07AM

O’Brien and his colleagues are resolute in their belief they have seen evidence that very strongly indicates they were placed under surveillance.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/gsoc-s-account-of-bugging-evidence-does-not-tally-with-that-of-minister-1.1689432

Branding the affair a “crisis”, Mr O’Brien said he suspected the Garda Siochána Ombudsman Commission (GSOC) had been put under electronic surveillance and that he could not rule out gardaí being suspects.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/bugging-of-gsoc-office-may-have-been-authorised-258634.html

BaronVon · 13-02-2014 11:08AM

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Also, Mooney stated last night that he believes that he is under criminal investigation regarding his activities with this story.

This is deeply alarming in my mind, as it is clearly in the public interest that this story come into the public domain considering the circumstances.

Not really, it would appear Mooney knows the mole, who could also be the hacker. If GSOC has been hacked, and you want to find out by who, Mooney is a good place to start.....

Garda Ombudsman "under high-tech surveillance"

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