Transgender child banned from girl's bathroom

clairefontaine · 06-03-2013 01:09AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

A four year old child leading the parents? Really? Then there's definitely something wrong with the parents that'd allow themselves to be led by a four year old child!

I can just imagine the child-

"I'm a girl and I want to be famous, lets go on the Katie Couric show and I'll be all special, oh, and I want special dispensation to use the girl's bathrooms in school, I won't settle for the nurses station and I'll fight them in court if I have to, well, you'll do that for me too since I'm now only six, Oh and I don't want to go to school any more, now I want to be home schooled. Make it so!"

Parents: "Isn't she adorable."

Give me strength!

Lets say you had a son. Is it unimaginable that he would lead your hand to the trains and trucks of the toy shop? To the dinosaurs and the lego and the remote control heli coptors? To the dress up sections of knights and soldiers?

Is that really hard to fathom that a child does this?

Is it hard to imagine your child a daughter insisting on wearing tights and skirts and those tackly sparkly hair things they put in their hair and play dress up with your wife's clothes and make up?

Yes children quite young, state their preferences, and quite young do so within their gender.

Now imagine you have a child that does these things and wants to do these things every day as part of them, and you force them to do the opposite.

Lou.m · 06-03-2013 02:33AM

There are behaviors that psychiatrists look for at a very young stage.

Believe it or not such children display extreme pain and distress towards their bodies at a young age even at one and a half.

http://www.genderspectrum.org/about/faq

Saying a child presented as female from 18 months and saying that a child articulated that they were transgendered at that age. Or that parents are certain.

But if you think this kind of thing can be influenced you are misinformed.

Read the link. 18 month children have been reported as saying 'me boy' etc ...their gender identity is the opposite to what was assigned at birth. There are signs for this very early.

What the parents and psychologists are saying is our child identifies and is a girl and always has. Not that hey our kid told us this at 18. But that their child identifies as female and that there have been signs of this since 18 months. Not that they influenced her. You can't.

When your 18 month old girl’s first words are “me boy” or your two year old son insists he is a girl, and these responses don’t waver over the next few years, you can be pretty sure that you have a transgender child. This does not mean the second a child demonstrates behavior that is inconsistent with their biological sex you should assume they are gender nonconforming. But if you can look over time and see that your child has persistently and consistently made that assertion, it is probably not just a phase.

Gender specialists differentiate transgender from gender nonconforming by noting that a transgender child will assert firmly, over time, that their gender identity is the opposite of that which was assigned at birth. They will insist that they are in the wrong body, or that God made a mistake. Gender nonconforming children are often less adamant about who they are not, but will stubbornly assert what toys they do and don’t like, clothes they will and won’t wear, or activities they do or don’t prefer irrespective of their assigned gender. One way to think about the difference is that while all transgender children are gender nonconforming, not all gender nonconforming children are transgender.

What they are saying is that their child has consistently asserted since 18 months that their child is the opposite gender to the male gender she was assigned at birth. Not that she announced at 18 months hey I'm a girl and they were down with it right then.

It will have been a painful slow journey of years and emphatic insistence on behalf of that child. And those parents probably dismissed it rather than confirmed it for years.

Isn’t this just a phase?
For some children, expressing gender nonconformity may be a phase; for others, it is not. The longer a child has identified as cross-gendered, the easier it becomes for a parent to answer this question themselves. The answer may become clearer over time. Regardless of the eventual outcome, the self-esteem, mental well-being, and overall health of a gender nonconforming child relies heavily on receiving love, support and compassion from their parents.

If your child has expressed a cross-gendered identity since early childhood, it is unlikely they will change their mind. Most people have some sense of their gender identity between the ages of two and four years old. For most, this awareness remains stable over time. Identity becomes further refined at puberty onset and when puberty is more or less completed.

For children whose gender nonconforming identity has remained stable and unchanged, parents can expect this will continue throughout life. Their sense of themselves will only deepen. For example, a 12 year old child who has consistently asserted that he is a girl since the age of three will most likely remain cross-gendered throughout life.

A young child who feels cross-gendered may change their mind. The most common time for this to occur is about 9-10 years old. There is insufficient research to know if these children later identify as gender nonconforming or transgender adults. So, it is unclear if this change indicates sublimation or if it was just childhood phase.

If the kid at this stage says 'I'm female' then that should be the end of it as far as the school goes.

Oh an no doubt psychologists etc have a better idea of family dynamics and will have been involved in this case for a long time. So those saying 'take the kid away from the parents ' should realize that is ridiculous. It seems to me that the general population are very ignorant and uneducated on this issue. So read up on the topic from experts before you express intolerant opinions.

This child has been born into a huge emotional challenge society can either make it ten times more painful or they can help.

This will become more common i feel. As doctors are more educated and listen to children.

By the way, children take the lead in asserting their identity...It is not that their parents introduce them to the clothes etc of the opposite sex...they often REFUSE to allow people to identify them as their assigned gender emphatically.

Of course you always allow the child to identify themselves even if it is a phase...they are simply saying that there six year old identifies as female and has seemed to according to experts for a long time. It is possible this will change but very unlikely.

Lou.m · 06-03-2013 03:11AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Sorry Links but I have to disagree vehemently with early intervention. Until the child has fully experienced puberty they simply cannot make judgements on whether they feel their gender is 'wrong'. That's when secondary sex characteristics develop. Postponing that for awhile doesn't help

1How can any child truly profess to being unhappy with their male body when the only thing that distinguishes them from female classmates is a small organ used for urinating? Everything else is cosmetic, clothes, hair, etc.

Children who haven't passed through puberty don't have the tools to make those life-changing decisions on their gender. Psychologists (or endocrinologists with little knowledge of psychology) don't have those tools either and prescribing hormones on a hunch on what may develop is extremely irresponsible.

I do however see the catch-22 for TG individuals who identify from an early age. As I said the secondary sex characteristics are what largely defines male from female, facial hair, breast development, etc and it's these which are often first targeted in transition. Yes it is true if development is stopped pre or early pubescent then the appearance of the individual will be noticeably more feminine (or masculine in the reverse). 2 However hormone treatment and surgery is infinitely safer (both physically and psychologically) for fully mature adults than kids or teenagers, plus you eliminate those cases where identifying as a different gender as a child is something that is grown out of through puberty.

1 They do not merely assert dissatisfaction they assert that they are the opposite gender. They do not say I wish i was female. They say I AM FEMALE. ..etc ..it is about being female as much as not being male or vice-verse.

2 How do you know are you an MD ???

Surgery is not done at a young age. Hormone treatment may be given and is reversible. They only give small enough amounts not to make permanent hormonal changes until adulthood. They start out on very very low doses. They can revert. Surgery is obviously more permanent. It is a carefully monitored process . And yes I there are cases where a child changes gender identification it usually happens at about 8-9 yrs. But it is a core sense of self either situation comes from the child. You never tell a child what they are. Which is what you are trying to do by forcing them to use the gents.

Think about it...do you have to tell kids...YOU ARE A GIRL....no...they know...???

There is also a another scenario

Not all children fit neatly into a male or female gender identity, trans or otherwise. For some children, the sense of being “both” or “neither” best describes their reality. Children seeing themselves as “both” will often explain that whether with a group of girls or a group of boys, they feel “at home.” Such a child will often speak of being more of one some days and more of the other on different days. These children might best be described as fluid in their gender. One therapist reported how some of the teens coming into the practice were describing themselves as “gender Priuses; you know, hybrids!”

Children who see themselves as “neither” will often speak of how regardless of whether they’re with a group of boys or girls, they feel like they don’t fit. This is not necessarily a sad feeling. They just see the kids around them and know that they are not “that.” Kids in this category often appear androgynous, and will frequently answer the question “are you a boy or a girl” by saying their name (“I’m Devon”) or by identifying themselves as animals. When asked to draw self portraits, they will portray themselves as rainbows, or unicorns, or another symbol of their choosing.

But this case does not appear to be like the above.

And we are not talking about putting this case on hormones but about which bathroom they use.

MadsL · 11-02-2014 05:23PM

Another student has sued and won

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/30/nicole-maines-wins-lawsuit_n_4696788.html

The Supreme Judicial Court ruled Thursday in a case in which lawyers for a fifth-grader argued that her rights were violated when she was required to use a staff bathroom instead of the girls' restroom.

Spunge · 11-02-2014 05:29PM

Keno wrote: »

I wonder if I put on a dress and claim to be a woman, can I use women's toilets and changing rooms?

Hmmmmmmmm

according to most transgender supporters, yes.

"Its how you really feel inside!!!"

BrokenArrows · 11-02-2014 05:39PM

Spunge wrote: »

according to most transgender supporters, yes.

"Its how you really feel inside!!!"

How about if you say you're a transgender woman but like dressing as a man. Would they let you into the womens shower in the gym. lol.

MadsL · 11-02-2014 05:42PM

BrokenArrows wrote: »

How about if you say you're a transgender woman but like dressing as a man. Would they let you into the womens shower in the gym. lol.

How about if we all stop sniggering?

Spunge · 11-02-2014 05:43PM

BrokenArrows wrote: »

How about if you say you're a transgender woman but like dressing as a man. Would they let you into the womens shower in the gym. lol.

mind blown, can we get an experts opinion on this for research purposes

Links234 · 11-02-2014 05:55PM

Oh god, why was this fustercluck of a thread dregged back up?

The whole thing can be summarized like this: "I'm not transgender, have no idea what it's like to be transgender, don't know anyone who is transgender, and all my information about transgender issues came from a single Daily Mail article, so let me soapbox and tell YOU what the deal is!"

MadsL · 11-02-2014 05:57PM

Links234 wrote: »

Oh god, why was this fustercluck of a thread dregged back up?

The whole thing can be summarized like this: "I'm not transgender, have no idea what it's like to be transgender, don't know anyone who is transgender, and all my information about transgender issues came from a single Daily Mail article, so let me soapbox and tell YOU what the deal is!"

Yeah, maybe not such a good idea - I see there has been no maturing on the subject in the past year.

the_monkey · 11-02-2014 06:02PM

BrokenArrows wrote: »

How about if you say you're a transgender woman but like dressing as a man. Would they let you into the womens shower in the gym. lol.

Brilliant .. I'm gonna try it ..

kylith · 11-02-2014 06:05PM

MadsL wrote: »

Another student has sued and won

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/30/nicole-maines-wins-lawsuit_n_4696788.html

I kind of feel bad for the school there, I'd imagine that they were trying to come up with a compromise; 'She doesn't want to use the boys' bathroom, there could be complaints about "him" using the girl's bathroom. If we let her use the staff toilets everyone's happy'.

The obvious solution would seem to be unisex bathrooms, but with teenagers that could be asking for trouble.

Jester252 · 11-02-2014 06:10PM

kylith wrote: »

I kind of feel bad for the school there, I'd imagine that they were trying to come up with a compromise; 'She doesn't want to use the boys' bathroom, there could be complaints about "him" using the girl's bathroom. If we let her use the staff toilets everyone's happy'.

The obvious solution would seem to be unisex bathrooms, but with teenagers that could be asking for trouble.

It is a tough spot to put the school in.
They could have let her us the girls bathroom at the experience of the other girls and parents seen as she is still biological (not to sure if this is the correct way to out) a boy.

I am pie · 11-02-2014 06:11PM

Hmm, the poor kid is going to using private stalls like the girls no? What's the issue? She is hardly going to displaying that unwanted appendage in there so whats the actual problem.

Why make the wee mite feel that uncomfortable, if he is dressing as a girl it should be fairly easy for a young born female child to understand the other kid dressed the same as them uses the same bathroom.

Much more confusing for the young boys to see a girl in a dress using their bathroom.

I don't know what the right terms are, but from a practical point of view I dont think thats important. It's not really a matter of saying that if you have one of those you go in to that bathroom, more that children with a similar gender identity share one bathroom, in the case of girls and the transgender child I assume nothing is on display so there is no problem in that respect?

tin79 · 11-02-2014 06:12PM

Links234 wrote: »

Oh god, why was this fustercluck of a thread dregged back up?

The whole thing can be summarized like this: "I'm not transgender, have no idea what it's like to be transgender, don't know anyone who is transgender, and all my information about transgender issues came from a single Daily Mail article, so let me soapbox and tell YOU what the deal is!"

I wouldn't take the opinions on AH too seriously. Its not a forum for real issues like, for example, the one you mod. Best not to let it irritate you IMO.

Penny Tration · 11-02-2014 06:14PM

My friend recently came out as being transgender and she's never had issues using a female bathroom since she started transitioning. I'd imagine she'd kick up murder if she were refused entry to a female toilet.

My other friend, also transgender, was in the female bathroom in the George with me on Stephen's night. A gay woman tried to physically drag my friend from the bathroom, saying she could not use it because she is a 'bloke.' my friend is extremely shy, so I ended up ripping the woman a new asshole, as did every other girl in the bathroom.

If somebody identifies as a certain gender, and is in the process of transitioning, be it by changing hair and dress, or by taking hormones and contemplating surgery, who are we to judge?

Should we not let gay people into our changing rooms in the gym in case they eye us up?

Spunge · 11-02-2014 06:15PM

Links234 wrote: »

Oh god, why was this fustercluck of a thread dregged back up?

The whole thing can be summarized like this: "I'm not transgender, have no idea what it's like to be transgender, don't know anyone who is transgender, and all my information about transgender issues came from a single Daily Mail article, so let me soapbox and tell YOU what the deal is!"

does banging a transgender count ?

RonnieRocket · 11-02-2014 06:16PM

Wow those parents are so progressive and liberal. Welcome to Obama's America.

Jester252 · 11-02-2014 06:16PM

I don't what to cause offence but this case will always have me raising a eyebrow. There is something off giving that an 18 month old child being was able to communicate her gender disorder. I have read similar stories of a young child being presented (apology if I caused offence) as a member of the opposite sex and them having issue in their teenage years.

MadsL · 11-02-2014 06:17PM

green_screen wrote: »

Should we not let gay people into our changing rooms in the gym in case they eye us up?

Apparently not...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/05/jonathan-vilma-gay-teammate-shower_n_4732415.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

"Imagine if he's the guy next to me and, you know, I get dressed, naked, taking a shower, the whole nine, and it just so happens he looks at me. How am I supposed to respond?"

clairefontaine · 11-02-2014 06:21PM

I can't understand why boys and mens room have urinals in the first place.

Make all toilets stall toilets and unisex.

Simple solution to this time wasting nonsense.

kylith · 11-02-2014 06:22PM

I am pie wrote: »

Hmm, the poor kid is going to using private stalls like the girls no? What's the issue? She is hardly going to displaying that unwanted appendage in there so whats the actual problem.

Why make the wee mite feel that uncomfortable, if he is dressing as a girl it should be fairly easy for a young born female child to understand the other kid dressed the same as them uses the same bathroom.

Much more confusing for the young boys to see a girl in a dress using their bathroom.

I don't know what the right terms are, but from a practical point of view I dont think thats important. It's not really a matter of saying that if you have one of those you go in to that bathroom, more that children with a similar gender identity share one bathroom, in the case of girls and the transgender child I assume nothing is on display so there is no problem in that respect?

I'd think that the problem would come from some the other kids' parents. There will always be someone who cannot or will not understand, and they will always see it as a boy trying to perv on girls by taking advantage of namby-pamby liberal shrinks and their trendy genderbending to pretend to be a queer.*

* In no way my opinion, just trying to put myself in the mindset of a super-conservative.

MadsL · 11-02-2014 06:23PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

I can't understand why boys and mens room have urinals in the first place.

Make all toilets stall toilets and unisex.

Simple solution to this time wasting nonsense.

Or keep the urinals in the unisex. Not like you can see anything unless you peer over when you are next to someone.

drunkmonkey · 11-02-2014 06:23PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

I can't understand why boys and mens room have urinals in the first place.

Because it's the quickest way to have a piss and not splash it all over the place.

Why can't men just keep their mens toilets, this is getting daft.

MadsL · 11-02-2014 06:25PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Because it's the quickest way to have a piss and not splash it all over the place.

Why can't men just keep their mens toilets, this is getting daft.

Why are unisex toilets "daft"?

drunkmonkey · 11-02-2014 06:26PM

MadsL wrote: »

Why are unisex toilets "daft"?

What's wrong with Mens toilets and Womens toilets, I sure as hell don't want to hear a woman having a crap beside me, is nothing sacred.

Links234 · 11-02-2014 06:27PM

green_screen wrote: »

My friend recently came out as being transgender and she's never had issues using a female bathroom since she started transitioning. I'd imagine she'd kick up murder if she were refused entry to a female toilet.

My other friend, also transgender, was in the female bathroom in the George with me on Stephen's night. A gay woman tried to physically drag my friend from the bathroom, saying she could not use it because she is a 'bloke.' my friend is extremely shy, so I ended up ripping the woman a new asshole, as did every other girl in the bathroom.

Even here in Ireland where the law is on our side when it comes to public toilet usage there can still be issues. I've never had any issues going to public toilets myself, but that doesn't stop me having anxiety about it. A friend of mine was attacked by 3 other women in dublin when going to the toilet, and was very lucky she managed to get herself away from them.

kylith · 11-02-2014 06:29PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...ef=mostpopular wrote:

"Imagine if he's the guy next to me and, you know, I get dressed, naked, taking a shower, the whole nine, and it just so happens he looks at me. How am I supposed to respond?"

I'm no expert, but I think "Hello" is correct in that situation.

MadsL · 11-02-2014 06:29PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

What's wrong with Mens toilets and Womens toilets, I sure as hell don't want to hear a woman having a crap beside me, is nothing sacred.

You prefer listening to blokes?

Women fart rainbows and pot pourri anyway.

Seriously are you saying you would refuse to use a unisex?

Links234 · 11-02-2014 06:29PM

Also, I really wonder do the people who are so set against the idea of unisex toilets have separate gendered bathrooms in their own homes?

Transgender child banned from girl's bathroom

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