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Reverse Engineering - always possible with enough time and resource?

  • 10-02-2014 10:47AM
    #1
    BenEadir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭


    Hi all,

    I'm working on a project where a key issue is whether or not the product in question can be reverse engineered.

    The product is a liquid made up of a secret blend of readily available chemicals which are then treated in some secret manner (mechanical/heat etc) to form the end product.

    The owner of the product maintains the secrecy of the formula and production process (it's only made in small batches) and should something happen to him the product secret is documented and kept in a safe to be passed to his successor. He fervently maintains that it is "impossible" to reverse engineer the product so he prefers to keep it secret (a la the formula for Coca Cola) rather than publish it and protect it with intellectual property rights as copycats could develop products which are 99% the same and not be in breach of the protected formula.

    My question, which is purely theoretical, is is it not always possible to reverse engineer any product if enough time and resource is applied to the challenge? It may cost tens of millions to employ dozens of scientists and use enough labs etc but in theory is it not just a question of sophisticated trial and error until the correct formula is discovered and this principle applies to all products?

    Ben


Comments

  • #2
    Khannie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,485 ✭✭✭✭Khannie


    BenThere wrote: »
    My question, which is purely theoretical, is is it not always possible to reverse engineer any product if enough time and resource is applied to the challenge? It may cost tens of millions to employ dozens of scientists and use enough labs etc but in theory is it not just a question of sophisticated trial and error until the correct formula is discovered and this principle applies to all products?

    Ben

    This doesn't strictly belong here, but I'm not quite sure where it does belong.

    So if you have infinite resources of course anything is possible. It would be incredibly difficult though.


  • #3
    BenEadir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭BenEadir


    Thanks Khannie,

    I put it in here as I thought the theory of reverse engineering would be close to the heart of the subject matter of this thread i.e. people breaking codes, unravelling encryption etc. In my (very laymans eyes) it's the same process applied in a mechanical/chemical rather than digital manner.

    The owner of the product I referred to is firmly of the belief that "it is impossible to reverse engineer XXX". A number of companies have had limited attempts at doing so without success but for me that just means they either didn't adopt the right approach or didn't have sufficient resources or both.

    I'm really just interested in discovering any sort of white paper or credible source which confirms that with the right approach and sufficient resources any man made product can be re-created. My hypothesis is that if Mr X was able to create the formula someone else can also create it albeit it might take them X number of man hours/man weeks/man years and Y Euros given all the possible permutations etc.

    Perhaps I'm wasting my time trying to find credible evidence to support my argument :(

    Ben


  • #4
    Khannie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,485 ✭✭✭✭Khannie


    It's self evident though, no? With infinite resources an no restriction on ingredient supply you can definitely find ways of doing something that is known to be possible. It's a bit like the thousand monkeys machine. You'll get it right eventually. The cost of doing so just wouldn't necessarily be worth the benefit.


  • #5
    Harold Weiss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Harold Weiss


    It sounds like you're talking about ingredients of some food? Deformulation of some recipe?

    I don't know anything about Chemistry or food sciences but I'm thinking some branch of Chromatography would be used to discover the individual ingredients of some mixture.

    Might get better answer in Chemistry & Physics forum.


  • #6
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Khannie wrote: »
    It's a bit like the thousand monkeys machine. You'll get it right eventually
    It's exactly like the monkey example. An infinite amount of monkeys (or one monkey with an infinite amount of time) are guaranteed to produce this "secret" formula (as well as the complete works of Shakespeare).

    Also, the guy is contradicting himself. On the one hand he's saying "no-one will be able to get it exactly right", but on the other, he's saying "I don't want to publish because somebody could change it slightly and it won't be protected". So they don't need to reverse engineer it, they just need to get a rough approximation

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  • #7
    Screaming Monkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 218 ✭✭Screaming Monkey


    not an expert in chemistry, but would be slightly different to reverse engineering encryption, given that there are a finite number of chemical elements, you can replicate the output, whereas with encryption its not as easy to tell the elements you have, so harder for output analysis.

    The coca-cola example is interesting, large part of that is myth and marketing, you could easily replicate the output and that's enough, look at all the copies e.g. Tesco own brand Cola. Once the product is out there, people will analyse it, they dont have to reverse engineer the process, just the output and then what. Its not really a secret if its out there for anyone to see and its not really secure unless its been designed to be secure even though publicly available

    Some good information about building secure systems here - https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/book.html

    SM


  • #8
    wil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭wil


    28064212 wrote: »
    It's exactly like the monkey example. An infinite amount of monkeys (or one monkey with an infinite amount of time) are guaranteed to produce this "secret" formula (as well as the complete works of Shakespeare).

    Also, the guy is contradicting himself. On the one hand he's saying "no-one will be able to get it exactly right", but on the other, he's saying "I don't want to publish because somebody could change it slightly and it won't be protected". So they don't need to reverse engineer it, they just need to get a rough approximation
    Not sure how you guarantee something that may take an infinite amount of time to happen , extinction aside
    BUT
    The infinite monkey theorem is probably (pun intended) a myth

    As the known universe is finite, it's been postulated the chances are off by about 10 to the 600. You'd need a much much bigger universe.

    On the other hand, there is a far great likelihood that some other person will happen on the same product in much the same way the original did. Such unlikely coincidental discoveries have happened before, probably for good logical reason - you know - necessity and maternal inclinations.;)


  • #9
    BenEadir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭BenEadir


    Harold Weiss wrote: »
    It sounds like you're talking about ingredients of some food? Deformulation of some recipe?

    I don't know anything about Chemistry or food sciences but I'm thinking some branch of Chromatography would be used to discover the individual ingredients of some mixture.

    Might get better answer in Chemistry & Physics forum.

    Hi Harold,

    Thanks very much for the response. The product isn't a food but it is a blend of readily available chemicals and oils etc so quite similar in concept.

    I'll ask the question on the chemistry forum and see what they say.

    Much appreciated.

    Ben


  • #10
    BenEadir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭BenEadir


    Thanks Wil, Screaming Monkey and Mr Numbers Man for your input. It confirms in a much more articulate manner what I need to say.

    Cheers,

    Ben


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