Do you think the Iona Institute are homophobic?

J_E · 06-02-2014 11:24PM

No

mango salsa wrote: »

Was that Croatia? Yeah I think Ireland is much more liberal than it was before even 10, 20 years ago.

Ireland has transformed at such an extraordinary rate. Of course there are going to be growing pains at this stage on some issues because there are generational conflicts.

Obliq · 06-02-2014 11:26PM

No

Links234 wrote: »

How to describe Death Note.... Hmmmm.

Try and imagine a battle of wits between Sherlock and mortiarty, except Japanese... And mortiarty has superpowers and can kill Sherlock dead just by knowing his name. That's Death Note, only awesomer.

Wow, I have Cumberbatch in anime form trundling around my head now. I'm sure my less culturally challenged teen can explain. Or indeed, google

Feeling old, off to me leaba!

AerynSun · 06-02-2014 11:29PM

No

Obliq wrote: »

Feeling old, off to me leaba!

Ditto. Sleep tight AH crew

darced · 06-02-2014 11:30PM

This post has been deleted.

alaimacerc · 06-02-2014 11:32PM

eorpach wrote: »

How curious that David Quinn didn't sue for being called a "woman hater" in a previous debate; he must not mind being labelled a misogynist. Bit of a double standard there.

Was he a participant in the debate this happened in? If he (or indeed anyone "of like mind") was there to defend himself (or indeed, abjectly fail to do so), then there's no problem with the "balance" requirement on the broadcaster, and they can hardly be held to be complicit with the speaker. And the lack of any actual enthusiasm for suing the actual speaker seems to be similar in both cases...

alaimacerc · 06-02-2014 11:36PM

P_1 wrote: »

A minority example if ever there was one though. Sadly one that has been used in Russia to pass laws that wouldn't have looked out of place in Nazi Germany

As shamefully cynical and regressive as they are, I think a more proportionate and objectively sustainable comparison might be with Thatcher's Britain: Clause 28, etc. Which is to say, somewhat better than 1990s Ireland in this respect...

K-9 · 06-02-2014 11:37PM

Cydoniac wrote: »

Ireland has transformed at such an extraordinary rate. Of course there are going to be growing pains at this stage on some issues because there are generational conflicts.

I think a lot of people put too much emphasis on generational gaps, I think somebody posted on a thread recently that in a poll O-60's had a majority for gay marriage.

Look at Quinn and groups like Iona or Youth Defence, all right people under 45/50 are more likely to be more liberal than a generation ago, but we give the oulder folk a hard time. You have god bothering daily mass goers, nothing you can do about that, but you've plenty of older people who had gay sons or daughters, unmarried daughters and sons, many divorced as well.

People often read too much into party voting patterns. FG under Garret 30 years was quite liberal for its time in Ireland and got its highest ever vote share in 1982 or so, some of those would still vote FG, but a lot don't have anybody to represent them, and hate the social conservative stance of Enda.

I think there's a lot of agist stereotyping, which is unfair and just based on perception, not any hard data.

dale_scully · 06-02-2014 11:39PM

K-9 wrote: »

I think a lot of people put too much emphasis on generational gaps, I think somebody posted on a thread recently that in a poll O-60's had a majority for gay marriage.

Look at Quinn and groups like Iona or Youth Defence, all right people under 45/50 are more likely to be more liberal than a generation ago, but we give the oulder folk a hard time. You have god bothering daily mass goers, nothing you can do about that, but you've plenty of older people who had gay sons or daughters, unmarried daughters and sons, many divorced as well.

People often read too much into party voting patterns. FG under Garret 30 years was quite liberal for its time in Ireland and got its highest ever vote share in 1982 or so, some of those would still vote FG, but a lot don't have anybody to represent them, and hate the social conservative stance of Enda.

I think there's a lot of agist stereotyping, which is unfair and just based on perception, not any hard data.

garrett fitz was more of an academic than a politican , he was a terrible Taoiseach

Annasopra · 06-02-2014 11:40PM

No

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Aw bless

alaimacerc · 06-02-2014 11:42PM

stretchdoe wrote: »

That guy on Prime Time, who was also on Vincent Browne the other night, think i've heard him on the radio too recently, is getting more exposure and opportunity to express his opinion than anyone who's being shut down and not given the opportunity to express their opinion i've ever seen.

The broadcasters are getting super-cautious about "balance" in any matter relating to a referendum coming down the pipe. Either that, or they're just addicted to putting up controversialist idiots for the sake of the ratings and the twitter traffic.

Either way, it means that extreme minority viewpoints are pretty much guaranteed many a TV appearance for the lifetime of their "issue". Witness the "Alive 'newspaper'" guy getting repeatedly wheeled out during the children's rights referendum, when he seemed to be speaking for next-to-noone. Likewise Paddy Manning gets to be "the only anti-SSM gay in the village" until the constitution is tweaked.

dale_scully · 06-02-2014 11:43PM

K-9 wrote: »

I'd notice changes in views even up here in socially conservative Donegal, we vote no in European referenda by default, the only county to vote no, no, no in the abortion referenda nearly 20 years ago, apparently we didn't agree with a womans right to travel and get information on abortion! Anyway!

It's still conservative but I've noticed a few people change opinions with age and experience.

Can't remember what book it was I read a while back but the idea always stuck with me, a conservative will always be a conservative until they end up in court, then they'll see how liberalism and compassion works in the real world.

The amount of people who'd be very anti single mothers and homosexuality, once it affects them personally, they don't be long changing their world views.

agree about the court thing , I used to be a " hang em and flog em " type , until I was the victim of a stich up by AGS

now I cringe at text messages from people contacting radio stations about how prisoners should only get bread and water etc

alaimacerc · 06-02-2014 11:43PM

dale_scully wrote: »

garrett fitz was more of an academic than a politican , he was a terrible Taoiseach

He was a whole lot better than then-current alternatives, don't you think?

Annasopra · 06-02-2014 11:43PM

No

alaimacerc wrote: »

The broadcasters are getting super-cautious about "balance" in any matter relating to a referendum coming down the pipe. Either that, or they're just addicted to putting up controversialist idiots for the sake of the ratings and the twitter traffic.

Either way, it means that extreme minority viewpoints are pretty much guaranteed many a TV appearance for the lifetime of their "issue". Witness the "Alive 'newspaper'" guy getting repeatedly wheeled out during the children's rights referendum, when he seemed to be speaking for next-to-noone. Likewise Paddy Manning gets to be "the only anti-SSM gay in the village" until the constitution is tweaked.

If Paddy Manning is constantly wheeled out on RTE for the next year we'll win by a landslide.

Lou.m · 06-02-2014 11:44PM

No

I think what is interesting is that the Irish establishment is learning what the gay community is. And what it is is international. I think they have been taken aback. The story has gone beyond these shores and people are passionate about it abroad. You could not get that with other 'Irish' issues. That is because it goes beyond Ireland. It is about being human.

I don't think the gay community had very much visibility in this country before now. And the fact that the gay communities in other countries want to reach out to each other I think has made people think.

Gay people all over the world relate to much of what Panti said in the Abbey Speech. That gives our cause a lot more validation. We are not just having a moan.

I don't know how much awareness there is of this story amongst youths. But if it could possibly make some people think about how they treat all people gay black men woman as equals then it would be great.

dale_scully · 06-02-2014 11:47PM

eorpach wrote: »

How curious that David Quinn didn't sue for being called a "woman hater" in a previous debate; he must not mind being labelled a misogynist. Bit of a double standard there.

when was he called a " woman hater " ?

was it around the time of the abortion debate last year ?

K-9 · 06-02-2014 11:48PM

dale_scully wrote: »

garrett fitz was more of an academic than a politican , he was a terrible Taoiseach

Oddly enough, I'd be mostly in agreement with that broad statement!

I think his heart was in the right place, I better not go on with that analogy considering CJ was the alternative!

dale_scully · 06-02-2014 11:48PM

alaimacerc wrote: »

He was a whole lot better than then-current alternatives, don't you think?

better than cowen but then again a well trained collie would be

he wasn't a leader of any kind , had a great mind but was more suited to the role of UCD lecturer or irish times columnist

eorpach · 06-02-2014 11:57PM

dale_scully wrote: »

when was he called a " woman hater " ?

was it around the time of the abortion debate last year ?

It was a statement he made at the beginning of tonight's Prime Time debate. He said he was called that during the recent Savita Halappanavar controversy; he then went off on a total tangent comparing the reputation of the Iona Institute with the reputation of the State of Israel; there is no rational correlation between the two whatsoever - not least because a nation state cannot claim "defamation" - to say nothing of the fact that the Iona Institute did not test their allegation of defamation before a court of law.

Ash.J.Williams · 06-02-2014 11:58PM

No

dale_scully wrote: »

when was he called a " woman hater " ?

was it around the time of the abortion debate last year ?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/radio-producer-under-fire-for-vulgar-tweet-28942196.html

El Weirdo · 06-02-2014 11:59PM

No

Lol.

Nodin · 07-02-2014 12:00AM

No

K-9 wrote: »

Oddly enough, I'd be mostly in agreement with that broad statement!

I think his heart was in the right place, I better not go on with that analogy considering CJ was the alternative!

Ahh yes, CJ.....

Sarky · 07-02-2014 12:02AM

No

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/radio-producer-under-fire-for-vulgar-tweet-28942196.html

Maybe his shady US funding was more secure back then. Maybe he thought Twitter had better lawyers. His recent actions have made it pretty damn likely that whatever his reasons, they weren't motivated by virtue.

floggg · 07-02-2014 12:03AM

No

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

:rolleyes:

Don't get so hysterical

K-9 · 07-02-2014 12:06AM

dale_scully wrote: »

better than cowen but then again a well trained collie would be

he wasn't a leader of any kind , had a great mind but was more suited to the role of UCD lecturer or irish times columnist

And Ray McSharry, a FF'er was the best Taoiseach we never had. Then again I was young then, I don't know if I'd be as complimentary now!

A mix between Ray's economic hard facts and Garret's social goodness, I'd be sold!

I remember watching Garret on Question Time about 96, around about the referendum time. To paraphrase him he was personally opposed to divorce, had a very happy marriage, but he couldn't in all consciousness and his personal morality, supplant that on people who really needed a divorce. Total gentleman, lost in politics, a good example of why economists don't generally make good politicians!

What's the famous quote about putting 100 economists in a room and 99 of them not agreeing! Putting an economist a party leader is a recipe fo disaster, especially a coalition government with hard left Labour politicians. Younger people would see the current Labour party as polar opposites from the 70/80' lot.

And that's ignoring the CJH effect, the ultimate Machiavellian politician.

seenitall · 07-02-2014 12:06AM

No

Lou.m wrote: »

I think what is interesting is that the Irish establishment is learning what the gay community is. And what it is is international. I think they have been taken aback. The story has gone beyond these shores and people are passionate about it abroad. You could not get that with other 'Irish' issues. That is because it goes beyond Ireland. It is about being human.

I don't think the gay community had very much visibility in this country before now. And the fact that the gay communities in other countries want to reach out to each other I think has made people think.

Gay people all over the world relate to much of what Panti said in the Abbey Speech. That gives our cause a lot more validation. We are not just having a moan.

I don't know how much awareness there is of this story amongst youths. But if it could possibly make some people think about how they treat all people gay black men woman as equals then it would be great.

Yes, that's how I feel about it. This isn't 'only' about gay rights, it's about everyone's rights.

I am straight, and I don't have any gay friends.

I do care about equality, very much so, but I will admit that even more than that, there is a big selfish element behind my support of gay rights, in that I know if gay people can chip chip chip away successfully at the hate and the bigotry toward an oppressed minority such as themselves, it will help with women's reproductive rights getting their day in the sun down the line; the opposition to any of it stems from the very same sources of moralising righteousness. If those are weakened by one loss, it will make it that bit easier to inflict another.

(I have a daughter and I am deeply concerned that she grow up in an Ireland where having a pregnancy go wrong would not, in any circumstance imaginable, mean a death sentence by virtue of "This is a Catholic country".)

darced · 07-02-2014 12:08AM

This post has been deleted.

dale_scully · 07-02-2014 12:09AM

seenitall wrote: »

Yes, that's how I feel about it. This isn't 'only' about gay rights, it's about everyone's rights.

I am straight, and I don't have any gay friends.

I do care about equality, very much so, but I will admit that even more than that, there is a big selfish element behind my support of gay rights, in that I know if gay people can chip chip chip away successfully at the hate and the bigotry toward an oppressed minority such as themselves, it will help with women's reproductive rights getting their day in the sun down the line; the opposition to any of it stems from the very same sources of moralising righteousness. If those are weakened by one loss, it will make it that bit easier to inflict another.

(I have a daughter and I am deeply concerned that she grow up in an Ireland where having a pregnancy go wrong would not, in any circumstance imaginable, mean a death sentence by virtue of "This is a Catholic country".)

savita died due to medical incompetence , nothing to do with the predominant religious ethos of this nation

seenitall · 07-02-2014 12:13AM

No

dale_scully wrote: »

savita died due to medical incompetence , nothing to do with the predominant religious ethos of this nation

I disagree.

Let's leave it at that, I don't want to derail the thread.

dale_scully · 07-02-2014 12:16AM

seenitall wrote: »

I disagree.

Let's leave it at that, I don't want to derail the thread.

then don't be a bomb thrower ( fire in irrelevant points and then run off to leave a mark )

its an established fact that she died due to a series of incompetent steps by medical staff in galway

seenitall · 07-02-2014 12:21AM

No

dale_scully wrote: »

then don't be a bomb thrower ( fire in irrelevant points and then run off to leave a mark )

A bomb thrower - I like the sound of that! Makes me feel all capable and dangerous!

The point was relevant to me and to what I was saying about my support for gay rights. I acknowledge you disagree with me, but I don't want to derail the thread by expanding on it and getting into a discussion about abortion on a thread about homophobia.

Surely not that controversial?

Do you think the Iona Institute are homophobic?

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