Sex educations in our schools

Alf Veedersane · 05-02-2014 12:32PM

I remember when I was a kid asking my Mam what the 'no heavy petting' sign meant at the swimming pool.

Cue embarrassment all round.

floggg · 05-02-2014 12:54PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I personally think that parents should be responsible for their own children's sex education rather than default to the token effort ham fisted method of ill informed delivery children receive in Irish schools. Even the way it's delivered is all wrong, as in trying to deliver a "nothing but the (misguided) facts please" method of delivery to a class of on average 20 adolescents who couldn't be less interested in delivery rather than discussion.

I think parents need to encourage discussion with their children about the issues surrounding sex and sexuality as parents are in the best position to decide whether their children are mature enough or even when they are mature enough to discuss some of the issues. I think the more children and adolescents are encouraged to be able to have open discussions with their parents, the less taboo and curiosity about breaking that taboo there will be for them.

I disagree that it should be responsible for sex ed. I think ultimately the State and society as a whole has an interest in ensuring all children receive proper and comprehensive sex education.

Ultimately, through teen pregnancies, child support, single mothers allowances, STI infection rates and associated health costs etc, it is I'm everybody's interest that all citizens have proper sex ed, and everybody pays to a certain extent when they don't.

I think even on public health grounds alone it's vital that kids are thought proper sex ed.

I think the tendency to focus mainly on the reproductive aspects is extremely misguided and short sighted. Preventing unplanned pregnancy is important but so too is preventing STIs.

There should be proper explanation of risks associated with all types of sex, not just penis in vagina type sex - so it should include oral, anal, Hetero and homo sex - as well as appropriate preventative measures.

That was something very much missing from ours, which was decent but didn't tell us too much we didn't know by 12 (got it in 6th class).

Czarcasm · 05-02-2014 01:06PM

floggg wrote: »

I disagree that it should be responsible for sex ed. I think ultimately the State and society as a whole has an interest in ensuring all children receive proper and comprehensive sex education.

Starts with the parents though floggg, in the very same way as parents would help their child with their homework in any other subject in school, and in the same way a parent takes an interest in every other aspect of their child's life. If you place ultimate responsibility on the State or society as a whole, they don't have the time nor the resources to ensure compliance with the guidelines set down in any program, and most people in society doesn't have any interest in anything that's beyond their own nose, until they are directly affected by it.

I think the tendency to focus mainly on the reproductive aspects is extremely misguided and short sighted. Preventing unplanned pregnancy is important but so too is preventing STIs.

There should be proper explanation of risks associated with all types of sex, not just penis in vagina type sex - so it should include oral, anal, Hetero and homo sex - as well as appropriate preventative measures.

But why all the focus on the risks involded and the "prevent this, prevent that, don't do this, don't do that". What's the first thing you did as a child when you heard "Don't try this at home kids!", well, you went and tried it, because it looked damn exciting! You don't want to scare children about sex and sexuality either, you don't want them to avoid it, and that's all hitting them with all the risks and none of the fun will do. You'll give them a complex and turn them into mini-hypochondriacs every time they have sex!

floggg · 05-02-2014 01:21PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Actually it wouldn't, but again, that whole "medically correct" just says "cold and clinical" to me, and surely under a comprehensive program LGBT issues would be included, but why would they have any more focus than any other sex and sexuality issues, and how would you even talk about LGBT sexuality without first exploring LGBT relationships? It's like telling someone how they get the figs in the fig rolls without telling them how they make the dough. Religious ethos is much less a barrier than it's made out to be here too tbh. Many people claiming "Ohh the 50's, the 50's, Catholic Church, all their fault", and yet, the RCC hasn't had to do a whole lot in the last 50 years to keep people ignorant. Why? Because rather than look at themselves, society would rather choose to pass the buck and blame somebody else for the ills in society that they didn't address. Religion isn't the problem, PEOPLE unwilling to address the issue of sex and sexuality are the problem. Far easier to say "It's someone else's fault!" though.

While that sounds all well and good has anybody here actually received LGBT inclusive sex ed?

Not just the "being gay is ok kind" but for example the mechanics of anal sex, the need for not just a condom but also lube for safety etc? (I know there are comparable lesbian issues but no idea what lesbian sex issue are).

Also, in an environment where most LGBT teaches have to remain closeted in work or risk losing their job (and I know a number in that boat), it is difficult to say catholic ethos isn't a bar to a proper discussion of LGBT issues.

If they won't actually allow openly gay teachers, I imagine there will be issues in at least some catholic schools if you try and teach them the mechanics of gay sex.

maguic24 · 05-02-2014 01:27PM

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

I went to a co-ed, public secondary school and yeah that was about the height of my sex ed too (chapter in the biology book) and we flew through it.

I went to the same type of school and that's all we were told too. Pure stupid. We also had a couple of guys who had 'seen the light' come in and talk to us about chastity.

I went to college a total gombeen as my mam didn't bother to tell me anything either. I was shocked in college when they looked for every and any excuse to talk about sex and give out condoms. I was morto when a girl handed me a packet during SHAG week. Have to say, after going to DCU I got a rude awakening and thank god I did!!! I gave out to my mam about not talking to me or my siblings and she said she didn't want to 'embarrass us'. That's all fine until one of us gets preggers or gets a girl preggers!! >.<

maguic24 · 05-02-2014 01:30PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Starts with the parents though floggg, in the very same way as parents would help their child with their homework in any other subject in school, and in the same way a parent takes an interest in every other aspect of their child's life. If you place ultimate responsibility on the State or society as a whole, they don't have the time nor the resources to ensure compliance with the guidelines set down in any program, and most people in society doesn't have any interest in anything that's beyond their own nose, until they are directly affected by it.

But why all the focus on the risks involded and the "prevent this, prevent that, don't do this, don't do that". What's the first thing you did as a child when you heard "Don't try this at home kids!", well, you went and tried it, because it looked damn exciting! You don't want to scare children about sex and sexuality either, you don't want them to avoid it, and that's all hitting them with all the risks and none of the fun will do. You'll give them a complex and turn them into mini-hypochondriacs every time they have sex!

I agree. I believe their should be better sex education in school but it is the responsibility of the parents as well. I am actually so annoyed at mam for never discussing this with me. I'm in my 20's and she still gets embarrassed and laughs about it. Wrecks my head!!!

05-02-2014 01:30PM

We had a public health nurse come in. She'd talk to the first years and third years. The talk in first year was basically about periods. We got "goody bags" with pads and tampons. At the time most of the girls in my class were mortified! Omg periods!

The one in third year was a bit better. We got a talk about STI's and contraception and had a Q+A thing. Eventhough I went to a Catholic convent school there was no religious talk in it at all. We got more Goody Bags, this time with a form to send off to get free condoms, but our parents had to sign it :rolleyes:

We watched ridiculous anti-abortion videos in religion class in 5th and 6th year. Such a loada sh*t.

Czarcasm · 05-02-2014 01:33PM

floggg wrote: »

While that sounds all well and good has anybody here actually received LGBT inclusive sex ed?

Not just the "being gay is ok kind" but for example the mechanics of anal sex, the need for not just a condom but also lube for safety etc? (I know there are comparable lesbian issues but no idea what lesbian sex issue are).

Says it all really, doesn't it?

Thing is, you're back to the cold mechanical approach again, and you've failed to acknowledge that it's not just gay people who enjoy anal sex, there's plenty of heterosexual and lesbian people enjoy it too!

Also, in an environment where most LGBT teaches have to remain closeted in work or risk losing their job (and I know a number in that boat), it is difficult to say catholic ethos isn't a bar to a proper discussion of LGBT issues.

Well you can have a proper discussion without delving into the teacher's personal life. I'm sure NO teacher, be they LGBT or heterosexual would want that.

If they won't actually allow openly gay teachers, I imagine there will be issues in at least some catholic schools if you try and teach them the mechanics of gay sex.

Why would you need to focus on simply the mechanics though? I'm sure they could be taught the concept of anal sex, it's not rocket science, and it's only a tiny, tiny part of LGBT and heterosexual relationships. You're not trying to teach children how to be porn stars, you're trying to teach them about sex and sexuality. There's more to it than just the mechanics.

Mickeroo · 05-02-2014 01:33PM

When I was in leaving cert (2000) we had our religion teacher tell us not to use condoms and if we wanted to avoid pregnancy to only have sex at a specific time of the month. One of the girls in the class was outraged and told them as much but she was just told to sit down and shut up.

GarIT · 05-02-2014 01:38PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This might sound like an odd proposal, but is there any reason the facts of life have to be this "big reveal" all in one go just when a kid is about to hit puberty?

Most kids ask questions about where babies come from, why people kiss etc when they're far younger, and tradition is to either bullsh!t them or give them half answers to the question. Is there any reason not to explain to them - obviously only as far as they seem capable of understanding - the truth?

Why should humans spend a substantial portion of their lives being kept in the dark about one of the most central aspects of being a mammal?

If a child is old enough to ask they are old enough to receive a factual answer IMO. If a child asks a question they are thinking about it, if they are thinking about it they may have an incorrect theory about it and would be much better off knowing the truth. I have been given out to for this before but yes I am saying we should be teaching 5 year olds the mechanics of sex.

Alf Veedersane · 05-02-2014 01:39PM

I wish our Spanish teacher in 1st Year had taught me about sex.

Spunge · 05-02-2014 01:43PM

I thought we got decent sex-ed in 6th class, and that was like 15 years ago.

floggg · 05-02-2014 01:44PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Starts with the parents though floggg, in the very same way as parents would help their child with their homework in any other subject in school, and in the same way a parent takes an interest in every other aspect of their child's life. If you place ultimate responsibility on the State or society as a whole, they don't have the time nor the resources to ensure compliance with the guidelines set down in any program, and most people in society doesn't have any interest in anything that's beyond their own nose, until they are directly affected by it.

But why all the focus on the risks involded and the "prevent this, prevent that, don't do this, don't do that". What's the first thing you did as a child when you heard "Don't try this at home kids!", well, you went and tried it, because it looked damn exciting! You don't want to scare children about sex and sexuality either, you don't want them to avoid it, and that's all hitting them with all the risks and none of the fun will do. You'll give them a complex and turn them into mini-hypochondriacs every time they have sex!

It SHOULD start with the parent - I agree.

But the state doesn't assume parents will teach kids how to count. It makes everybody learn maths just to be safe. Those whose parents help them will have an advantage but everybody will be able to count to ten by baby infants.

Same for sex ed.

And I think it's important to teach them about the risks, but that doesn't mean it has to be in a negative manner. Teachers are well trained in how to relate to kids (at least these days) so I'm sure they could find the right pitch.

Thing is, kids will perk up when they hear sex. If your teacher mentions the word blow job, you'll listen.

So you can communicate these things if you speak their language - which let's face it, when talking about sex, they learned from the adults in the first place.

And I agree it should be sex positive. I don't think educating about the risks is sex negative though.

The only reason I didn't mention teaching the relationship aspects etc is because I knew that is likely to be more controversial for people who see it as a parents job to teach them about sex.

Teaching how not to get AIDS or general warts is likely less offensive that recognising that kids will have sex will before their parents think they should.

maguic24 · 05-02-2014 01:54PM

The little sex ed I got in school was similar to the sex ed clip in Mean Girls. Basically I left school terrified of 'willies'.

I Heart Internet · 05-02-2014 02:29PM

I recall there was an evening talk by a "community nurse" type person for us 6th class pupils. We went with our parents. I can't really recall what was covered. On the drive home, my parents (mother and father I think) said - "if you have any questions, just ask." I said, "Yeah, fine." To be honest, I was too innocent to be embaressed or anthing about it.

Secondary school consisted of a combination of guidance - skirting around the subject, it seemed to me in Religion class and the cut-and-thrust of the mechanics of it in Science (all before JC).

I recall one guy fainted during the Science lesson learning about people's bits. Same guy went down while talking about hormones as well, I think. We lost some good men...

We could do with having a more uniform approach to teaching SexEd. Even allowing for the fact that 90%+ schools are RC ethos - it would be good if they, at least had an agreed approach.

Edit: Regardless, responsible parents should ensure their kids know all they need to know. I'd like to think, when the time comes, I'll be able to step up and have a full and frank discussion. (Not say, "why don't you ask you Mam about that?")

skydish79 · 05-02-2014 07:34PM

Zaph wrote: »

I don't think anyone would disagree with that, but as has been said by others, many parents are either too uncomfortable to have that discussion with their kids, or they're under-educated about sex themselves and aren't capable of doing the job properly. This is why schools fulfil a vital role in sex education, and if it's going to be taught in schools then the schools have a responsibility to teach it properly and without any agenda or bias. Unfortunately there are probably many kids in this country being failed by both their parents and their school when it comes to sex education.

So your making a basic assumption teachers be any more comfortable talking about sex

My issue is that schools get left with every problem parents have, an issue they are too "uncomfortable" to have

Schools dont/havent been resourced or trained adaquately to teach sex education

This is a health issue and should be dealt with by parents and the HSE

Frank Lee Midere · 05-02-2014 07:40PM

While I am sure that it wouldn't do any harm, I am dubious that sex education would teach modern teenagers anything they didn't know already. The mechanics for sure are covered on Internet sites. Condom use is going to be dependent on how cool the use is seen to be, but who wouldn't know how they work?

Cupcake_Crisis · 05-02-2014 07:42PM

I remember getting "sex ed" in about 6th class. Basically it was just about the female reproductive system in very vague detail. I think there was a tampon on display at one stage.

Then in about 2nd year (in an all girls school) we were informed that boys had willy's, a fact that half my year was already VERY aware of.

In my opinion a very comprehensive sex ed module should be made available in about first year. Prevention is better than cure.

thegreatgonzo · 05-02-2014 07:45PM

Eeden wrote: »

What sort of school did you go to? That seems insanely liberal for the early 90s! were parents consulted?

No! It was actually a former convent with a strong Catholic ethos. This is why I took it for granted that all schools did this. They did have a meeting with the parents about it first and my mother went. She told me that only one set of parents had strong objections to it.
I still laugh when I think of my Irish teacher explaining what a blow job was.

Czarcasm · 05-02-2014 08:41PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

While I am sure that it wouldn't do any harm, I am dubious that sex education would teach modern teenagers anything they didn't know already. The mechanics for sure are covered on Internet sites. Condom use is going to be dependent on how cool the use is seen to be, but who wouldn't know how they work?

I've known people Frank that have had difficulty opening the frickin' pack, never mind the actual proper and safe method to putting it on! And that goes for both guys AND girls, who when struggling to open the pack have been known to use their teeth, or try to pierce the pack with their fingernail!

While all credit is due for actually having the presence of mind and common sense to use a condom in the first place, it's about as effective as fcuking with a sieve on the end of your knob when you don't open the pack properly, let alone put the condom on properly.

And don't even get me started on the amount of girls I've met who are clueless about the variety of contraceptive pills and options available for them, that sometimes a more permanent solution might be necessary because they're completely irresponsible when it comes to remembering to actually keep to a schedule with the pill or even remember to take it in the first place!

maguic24 · 05-02-2014 10:58PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

While I am sure that it wouldn't do any harm, I am dubious that sex education would teach modern teenagers anything they didn't know already. The mechanics for sure are covered on Internet sites. Condom use is going to be dependent on how cool the use is seen to be, but who wouldn't know how they work?

I didn't know **** going to college. I didn't know what a clitoris was.....and I have one!!

Also I am only 22 now!!! So not that long ago!!! And I went to a mixed community school....

hatrickpatrick · 05-02-2014 11:55PM

GarIT wrote: »

If a child is old enough to ask they are old enough to receive a factual answer IMO. If a child asks a question they are thinking about it, if they are thinking about it they may have an incorrect theory about it and would be much better off knowing the truth. I have been given out to for this before but yes I am saying we should be teaching 5 year olds the mechanics of sex.

TBH I knew them when I was ridiculously young, maybe 6-7, because I loved reading and when someone found the "zomg naked people bwahahaha" page in an encyclopedia in one of our classrooms, I actually went and read the text on the page as well

Was pretty funny when it came to my dad giving me "the talk" and I already knew most of the stuff he was talking about, he was pretty surprised

Semele · 06-02-2014 01:01AM

Ours was the reproductive system in biology and much the same in RE. Mortifying for all, mostly as the respective teachers had kids in my class! It was basic as feck though. Our RE one apparently dealt with the emotional side (ie: don't do it, don't even think about it or it will damn you to hell). This culminated with a piece of GCSE coursework in which we had to write a letter to an imaginary pregnant friend of the same age, advising her of her options. I got very low marks in this due to considering abortion as an option and not encouraging her strongly enough to baptise the eventual baby asap out of fear for its eternal soul should it die young. WTF, like? The worst thing being this was only in 2000!

JimmyCrackCorn · 06-02-2014 01:15AM

maguic24 wrote: »

I didn't know **** going to college. I didn't know what a clitoris was.....and I have one!!

Also I am only 22 now!!! So not that long ago!!! And I went to a mixed community school....

We had a VHS tape with a nun explain what a wet dream was and how masturbation was wrong.

We also had a science teacher say "I shouldn't say this but but as soon as an egg is fertilised its a life and abortion is wrong" in science class.

Took me a while to find a clitoris two.

It wasn't until I dated an American lass I got over the guilt and crap id been fed about enjoying sex and relationships.

That_Guy · 06-02-2014 03:03AM

My sex education consisted of a guy putting a condom on a fake penis. Midway through he stopped to take the angelus....

After learning about various STI's later in the class, one of the lads fainted and had to be taken out of the room.

06-02-2014 03:21AM

That_Guy wrote: »

My sex education consisted of a guy putting a condom on a fake penis. Midway through he stopped to take the angelus....

Was he struggling that much with it? :pac:

maguic24 · 06-02-2014 02:00PM

JimmyCrackCorn wrote: »

We had a VHS tape with a nun explain what a wet dream was and how masturbation was wrong.

We also had a science teacher say "I shouldn't say this but but as soon as an egg is fertilised its a life and abortion is wrong" in science class.

Took me a while to find a clitoris two.

It wasn't until I dated an American lass I got over the guilt and crap id been fed about enjoying sex and relationships.

Awful isn't it? We were made look at pictures of mutilated babies in our religion class and each of us was given a pro-life badge of a tiny pair of feet. I refused to take it. Whether your prolife or prochoice, neither opinion should be rammed down your throat.

I left school and went to college scared sh*tless about sex and really embarrassed when anyone brought it up. I thought even if I used all the protection under the sun I'd still get pregnant. >.<

Czarcasm · 06-02-2014 02:14PM

JimmyCrackCorn wrote: »

We had a VHS tape with a nun explain what a wet dream was and how masturbation was wrong.

We also had a science teacher say "I shouldn't say this but but as soon as an egg is fertilised its a life and abortion is wrong" in science class.

Took me a while to find a clitoris two.

It wasn't until I dated an American lass I got over the guilt and crap id been fed about enjoying sex and relationships.

maguic24 wrote: »

Awful isn't it? We were made look at pictures of mutilated babies in our religion class and each of us was given a pro-life badge of a tiny pair of feet. I refused to take it. Whether your prolife or prochoice, neither opinion should be rammed down your throat.

I left school and went to college scared sh*tless about sex and really embarrassed when anyone brought it up. I thought even if I used all the protection under the sun I'd still get pregnant. >.<

Jesus Christ, when I hear stories like these, I'm inclined to think that in some circumstances NO "education" is better than some completely misguided, ill informed, utter bullshìt agenda driven nonsense!

GarIT · 06-02-2014 03:03PM

maguic24 wrote: »

Awful isn't it? We were made look at pictures of mutilated babies in our religion class and each of us was given a pro-life badge of a tiny pair of feet. I refused to take it. Whether your prolife or prochoice, neither opinion should be rammed down your throat.

I left school and went to college scared sh*tless about sex and really embarrassed when anyone brought it up. I thought even if I used all the protection under the sun I'd still get pregnant. >.<

We were the same, given the option of punishment lines and extra homework or we could go to a class on why abortion was wrong which was just a slideshow of dead babies, some of which weren't even aborted, they were just there to scare you.

J_E · 06-02-2014 03:23PM

Personally I think it should be a mix of parental advice with a basic coverage by schools. It could be so much easier to teach in schools were it not for teacher's own agendas i.e the pro-choice/life thing which should never be morally explored, just presented.

My sex education was great - I had already figured out a lot myself through the internet (not porn, just actual common sense websites) and my parents bought me a great book which covered all the need to knows about safe sex, puberty, etc. Of course I was terrified when hair started sprouting but safe in the knowledge that I knew what was coming.

I was fortunate to have a smart, common sense religion teacher who didn't try to play the God game when it came to religion, it was a great atmosphere in the class, chilled out and reasonable, talking about contraception, debunking myths, etc. and science was the same except for a bit more laughing (the way our teacher said 'vagina' in a Carlow accent is still funny today)

The only thing I worry about from personal experience is sex ed for gay and lesbian people. I really didn't know the story there. I could probably pick out every part of a vagina and tell you what spots were good to go for but clueless with what to do with men. I just worry there may be men in particular that don't really understand sex and end up getting screwed without protection by someone who takes advantage of them (and we don't all like anal sex, it just seems like the 'done' thing when you don't know about it). I had thought of coming into schools to talk about it but to be honest it's a sensitive subject; a lot of parents don't want their children hearing that sort of thing if they can help it.

Think if we could sort out basic sex ed before including other groups, we'd be doing pretty well.

Sex educations in our schools

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