Iona vs Panti

Turtwig · 31-01-2014 02:51AM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

That doesn't work. Your comparison would be an anti-black racist who was black themselves opposing a black person marrying another black person.

That would be the comparison, yes. Now let's see.

an anti-gay homophobe who was gay themselves opposing a gay person marrying another gay person.

Phill Ewinn · 31-01-2014 02:54AM

Jernal wrote: »

That would be the comparison, yes. Now let's see.

an anti-gay homophobe who was gay themselves opposing a gay person marrying another gay person.

Or anyone twisting any argument they may have to reinforce any bias they may have. That works too!

Brown Bomber · 31-01-2014 02:55AM

Jernal wrote: »

That would be the comparison, yes. Now let's see.

an anti-gay homophobe who was gay themselves opposing a gay person marrying another gay person.

The anti-gay part becomes redundant beside homophobe but that is essentially what you said right?

an anti-gay homophobe who was gay themselves opposing a gay person marrying another gay person

= A gay homophobe because they oppose gay marriage

[-0-] · 31-01-2014 02:55AM

Why the feck was Brown Bomber allowed back again?

Turtwig · 31-01-2014 02:56AM

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Or anyone twisting any argument they may have to reinforce any bias they may have. That works too!

I understand you disagree with me. That is unfortunately all I understand. Can you please try to clarify what you are saying, because I'm lost. Sorry.

Hotblack Desiato · 31-01-2014 02:56AM

[-0-] wrote: »

Why the feck was Brown Bomber allowed back again?

Something to do with tired hamsters apparently :pac:

:rolleyes:

david75 · 31-01-2014 02:58AM

I know lots of gays who are homophobic.
'Im mad about the cock but I f****n hate fagg!ts'
This outlook isn't uncommon.

Turtwig · 31-01-2014 02:58AM

[-0-] wrote: »

Why the feck was Brown Bomber allowed back again?

Biscuits. Now do not ask such a personal off topic question like that again in this thread. PM/ report post, feedback in future.

Thanks

Sarky · 31-01-2014 03:04AM

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Or anyone twisting any argument they may have to reinforce any bias they may have. That works too!

As your efforts have constantly demonstrated, it doesn't work at all.

Brown Bomber · 31-01-2014 03:04AM

david75 wrote: »

I know lots of gays who are homophobic.
'Im mad about the cock but I f****n hate fagg!ts'
This outlook isn't uncommon.

Again thanks for your honesty. Is that actual homophobia though? I'm confused what homophobia now is though...

Is a homophobic gay man akin to a self-hating Jew? That is a label that is used as a perjorative against Jews who don't allign with the mainstream views. No Jew would accept such a label on themselves, it will always come from the outside.

Sarky · 31-01-2014 03:05AM

Oh, is it True Scotsman time already?

Hotblack Desiato · 31-01-2014 03:10AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ1u9Fno3jU

Hello BB. Larry David is a Jew.

"I do hate myself, but it has nothing to do with being Jewish"

Phill Ewinn · 31-01-2014 03:14AM

Jernal wrote: »

I understand you disagree with me. That is unfortunately all I understand. Can you please try to clarify what you are saying, because I'm lost. Sorry.

Im saying its possible for anyone to overlook anyone elses opinion if it conflicts with their own opinion. Using any argument necessary.

Doesnt mean the opinion is invalid. Just means.you have a bias.

Frito · 31-01-2014 03:14AM

Sarky wrote: »

Oh, is it True Scotsman time already?

Nope, that'll be Sep 18th

Turtwig · 31-01-2014 03:16AM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Again thanks for your honesty. Is that actual homophobia though? I'm confused what homophobia now is though...

Is a homophobic gay man akin to a self-hating Jew? That is a label that is used as a perjorative against Jews who don't allign with the mainstream views. No Jew would accept such a label on themselves, it will always come from the outside.

Define what you consider to be 'actual' homophobia. Otherwise noone can answer your question or reply coherent to your post.

Stark · 31-01-2014 03:16AM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Rather selfish to not think of the children.

Study: Children Of Divorced Parents Are More Likely To Be Unhappy And Feel Unfulfilled...

Ah the old head in the sand approach to Catholic legislating.

It's no surprise that the ideal world situation is for Mammy and Daddy to live happily ever after and being a child of a toxic relationship is no fun. What is stupid is thinking that by banning divorce you can eliminate relationship breakdown. Divorce is merely a means for people to move on with their lives and find a more stable situation after the marriage has gone sour.

It's the same sort of fanciful logic that people who (wrongly) think that male parent/female parent is the only ideal family unit employ. "Oh if we ban gays from getting married, all the same sex couples who are currently raising children in Ireland will just disappear! Hooray!".

WoolyJumper · 31-01-2014 03:29AM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Thanks for your honesty. It is refreshing to hear people speaking from the heart and not be point-scoring. I concede all your points but there is no indication at all that any of these men are in anyway homophobic other than the value they place in a traditional family.

Well I can't say what these guy's motivation is but when your gay growing up in a society that often stereotypes you, puts you in a less equal position to everyone else you internalise that and it can affect you deeply, especially if your family and community do the same. Placing value on the traditional family doesn't mean alternative families are not to be valued. I grew up in a traditional family and i value my up brining greatly..It doesn't mean any family I may have in the future will be any less. So when I see these videos (one guy in particular) I see some internal homophobia in that.

Another guy (Phillippe) I didn't understand at all...he spoke about gay marriage as forcing gay people to conform to the norm of society etc....perhaps he wants to live an alternative lifestyle, but why would he begrudge every other gay person of living a more "conventional" life. To me that would be a sign of some internal homophobia but again that's just some of my amateur psychology :P

Brown Bomber · 31-01-2014 03:31AM

Stark wrote: »

Ah the old head in the sand approach to Catholic legislating.

It's no surprise that the ideal world situation is for Mammy and Daddy to live happily ever after and being a child of a toxic relationship is no fun. What is stupid is thinking that by banning divorce you can eliminate relationship breakdown. Divorce is merely a means for people to move on with their lives and find a more stable situation after the marriage has gone sour.

It's the same sort of fanciful logic that people who (wrongly) think that male parent/female parent is the only ideal family unit employ. "Oh if we ban gays from getting married, all the same sex couples who are currently raising children in Ireland will just disappear! Hooray!".

I never said anything about staying in any toxic relationship did I? Where I live in Sweden it's not uncommon to have one or two divorces and children by your mid twenties. Easy divorce encourages non-committal marriages which leaves a trail of traumitised children. It is they that I care about. The general attitude here to marriage is yeah... I do want a white dress and flashy ring and if it doesn't workout we can always get a divorce when the honeymoon period is over, you can have the kids at weekends, yeah?

Brown Bomber · 31-01-2014 03:52AM

WoolyJumper wrote: »

Well I can't say what these guy's motivation is but when your gay growing up in a society that often stereotypes you, puts you in a less equal position to everyone else you internalise that and it can affect you deeply, especially if your family and community do the same. Placing value on the traditional family doesn't mean alternative families are not to be valued. I grew up in a traditional family and i value my up brining greatly..It doesn't mean any family I may have in the future will be any less. So when I see these videos (one guy in particular) I see some internal homophobia in that.

Another guy (Phillippe) I didn't understand at all...he spoke about gay marriage as forcing gay people to conform to the norm of society etc....perhaps he wants to live an alternative lifestyle, but why would he begrudge every other gay person of living a more "conventional" life. To me that would be a sign of some internal homophobia but again that's just some of my amateur psychology :P

Again thanks for your thoughts, I really do appreciate getting to share your insight on this, an insight I couldn't obtain myself. Here is where it gets interesting for me though, and believe me when I say I am aware of how hollow it is for me to be telling you what can and can't be homophobia when you have suffered discrimination in your life but isn't it homophobic to believe that all gays will think the same thoughts?

My brief definition of homophobia is "hating SOMEONE because they are gay" I just don't see this with opposition to gay marriage. Of course someone could be against gay marriage for homophobic reasons but that is not the only explanation so we cannot conclude IMO that to be against gay marriage is de-facto homophobia. I find it fascinating that the gay community (and I don't include you in this) is a microcosm of the rest of the world. That a community persecuted en masse for being different would be persecuting ideological minorities within their own ranks for not marching with the rest of the herd.

AngryHippie · 31-01-2014 04:45AM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

isn't it homophobic to believe that all gays will think the same thoughts?

My brief definition of homophobia is "hating SOMEONE because they are gay"

That a community persecuted en masse for being different would be persecuting ideological minorities within their own ranks for not marching with the rest of the herd.

On your first point, no, its stereotyping, or making poor assumptions. IT happens, nobody's judgement is perfect.

Your brief definition is inadequate for the purpose of this argument, as hatred is not the form of homophobia that is being discussed, discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is.

As for the final point (or lack thereof) I don't believe that their is any form of militant or persecuting activity in the gay community against those that do not wish to express their voice, or the tiny minority that speak out against.

On homophobia, from the definitions I have read of it, and the arguments I have encountered, It requires any of the below:

Hatred
Irrational fear
Discrimination
Differential treatment based on any of the above

It is pretty obvious that even by giving a rats ar$e what the gay community can or can't do, the Various parties being accused of homophobia are guilty as fcuk of at least one of the above.

Of course they are entitled to their private opinions, but when they organize or campaign based on any of the homophobic basis above, they are defacto guilty of homophobic actions.

It really fcuking gets up my hole that people in this country still think that they have the right to tell people how to live their private lives, just because the RCC used to. I'm a heterosexual catholic, and I can safely say that I know gay couples that would make create perfectly nurturing environment for both raising children and for having a nuclear family structure.
Do I or anyone else have the right to tell them that they can't or shouldn't be allowed to have these life experiences ?

Hell No.

It's one of the many many things that has driven me from being a practicing catholic, to being entirely cynical about the organization and it's bible thumping family values core. Instead, I'll try and be a good Christian, live by the golden rule, take the rest with a pinch of salt, and learn to mind my own fcuking business

obplayer · 31-01-2014 04:55AM

Stark wrote: »

Ah the old head in the sand approach to Catholic legislating.

It's no surprise that the ideal world situation is for Mammy and Daddy to live happily ever after and being a child of a toxic relationship is no fun. What is stupid is thinking that by banning divorce you can eliminate relationship breakdown. Divorce is merely a means for people to move on with their lives and find a more stable situation after the marriage has gone sour.

It's the same sort of fanciful logic that people who (wrongly) think that male parent/female parent is the only ideal family unit employ. "Oh if we ban gays from getting married, all the same sex couples who are currently raising children in Ireland will just disappear! Hooray!".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgqud_M0DwI

obplayer · 31-01-2014 04:58AM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Again thanks for your thoughts, I really do appreciate getting to share your insight on this, an insight I couldn't obtain myself. Here is where it gets interesting for me though, and believe me when I say I am aware of how hollow it is for me to be telling you what can and can't be homophobia when you have suffered discrimination in your life but isn't it homophobic to believe that all gays will think the same thoughts?

My brief definition of homophobia is "hating SOMEONE because they are gay" I just don't see this with opposition to gay marriage. Of course someone could be against gay marriage for homophobic reasons but that is not the only explanation so we cannot conclude IMO that to be against gay marriage is de-facto homophobia. I find it fascinating that the gay community (and I don't include you in this) is a microcosm of the rest of the world. That a community persecuted en masse for being different would be persecuting ideological minorities within their own ranks for not marching with the rest of the herd.

OED definition 'an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people'
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/homophobia

[-0-] · 31-01-2014 05:14AM

Jernal wrote: »

Biscuits. Now do not ask such a personal off topic question like that again in this thread. PM/ report post, feedback in future.

Thanks

It is a genuine question that should be open for public discussion, not hidden away in a private conversation. People are banned publicly, why not discuss why they have been allowed back?

Turtwig · 31-01-2014 05:53AM

[-0-] wrote: »

It is a genuine question that should be open for public discussion, not hidden away in a private conversation. People are banned publicly, why not discuss why they have been allowed back?

Same reason you don't discuss soccer, or bans in soccer here. There's a proper time and place for everything. This thread is not that place.

Nodin · 31-01-2014 06:30AM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I never said anything about staying in any toxic relationship did I? Where I live in Sweden it's not uncommon to have one or two divorces and children by your mid twenties. Easy divorce encourages non-committal marriages which leaves a trail of traumitised children. It is they that I care about. The general attitude here to marriage is yeah... I do want a white dress and flashy ring and if it doesn't workout we can always get a divorce when the honeymoon period is over, you can have the kids at weekends, yeah?

Yep, that's why their society is notorious and falling apart at the seams.

J_E · 31-01-2014 06:57AM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

My brief definition of homophobia is "hating SOMEONE because they are gay" I just don't see this with opposition to gay marriage.

You're taking the Iona approach and making homophobia an on/off switch concept, 'you either hate 'em or you don't'. It's much more dynamic than that. Panti spoke about this in a very clear way;

“Oh listen, the problem is with the word ‘homophobic’, people imagine that if you say “Oh he’s a homophobe” that he’s a horrible monster who goes around beating up gays you know that’s not the way it is. Homophobia can be very subtle.

lynski · 31-01-2014 07:36AM

obplayer wrote: »

OED definition 'an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people'
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/homophobia

That is like saying that only people who hate other races are racist; that banning a person from marriage based on skin colour is not racist because I dont hate them I just don't think they should be allowed the same marriage rights as me.
That only two people with my skin colour provide the best environment for a child and that is what marriage is for.
Once you can do this with an argument then It is discrimination.
Just objecting to marriage equality on the basis of gender of the spouses is homophobic because it comes from a place of fear.

jank · 31-01-2014 08:09AM

robindch wrote: »

You know exactly what you're doing and -- as earlier today -- you're fooling nobody with your faux "Who, me?" act.

If you refer to Rory again as a drag queen, or anything other than his full name, you will be banned. Likewise for any more posts that are inflammatory or hostile in the opinion of any of the mods. Like your immediately previous post, for example.

This, lest you try a "Who, me?" with respect to this warning, comes at the end of a long, long series of public and private warnings about your use of objectionable and hostile language.

I agree with this post and the need to have a level of decorum, so therefore to have the same rule for all so can you stop referring to any American you don’t agree with politically as 'teabilies' as 'You know exactly what you're doing' there as well.....

Nodin · 31-01-2014 08:21AM

jank wrote: »

I agree with this post and the need to have a level of decorum, so therefore to have the same rule for all so can you stop referring to any American you don’t agree with politically as 'teabilies' as 'You know exactly what you're doing' there as well.....

The difference between the specific and the general is evidently lost on you.

david75 · 31-01-2014 08:23AM

BB, homophobia can of course be internalised and in that take many forms to, just as it does in society. Wanting to fit in and be accepted is part of everyone's life and especially can be important while growing up.
If you're made to feel different of worse, cast out of your family or social structure, because of your sexuality, it can take a long time to form to terms and accept yourself again and make peace with that. Sometimes some people never do. Depends on what's going on in their lives. And that's also an added element to gay mean battling depression or young gay men taking their own lives.

This is why it's so important this upcoming referendum passes. As soon as being gay in ireland and completely normalised, society will absorb that and move along like nothing ever happened.
And that's why I don't understand the naysayers point of view at all.

Iona vs Panti

Comments