Iona vs Panti

Turtwig · 31-01-2014 01:27AM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Here is one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTBR1fcnfOw

Hard pressed does not mean impossible, just statistically rare. Look hard enough and you'll find people who believe the world is flat.

Out of the next hundred gays you meet in random encounters find one who opposes gay marriage. Out of the next 470 find one who opposes

david75 · 31-01-2014 01:27AM

I'd report you but it's to be the guards to be honest.
Incitement to hatred across multiple threads and general homophobia.
You can't get arrested for being thick.
Lucky you!

5uspect · 31-01-2014 01:32AM

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

I can safely say no one is opposing equal rights. What Iona or Waters believe has nothing to.do with me and I don't need to comment.

What you're doing here is trying to associate opposition to same sex marriage with homophobia. This is highly flawed and you know that. I have pointed this out earlier.

Its not rocket surgery.

I've done nothing of the sort. I've simply explained to you why opposition to gay marriage can be considered homophobic when the arguments used are invalid and when this is pointed out to the person opposing gay marriage they continue to hold that untenable position. This exposes their underlying prejudices.

This isn't saying that I disagree with your view, this is simply about factual statements about research and people misrepresenting it or cherry picking results to suit their view point. This is what Iona are clearly guilty of.

Another matter is if you oppose gay marriage and why.

david75 · 31-01-2014 01:37AM

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Its unprovable. I doubt I'm gong to get any kind of agreement on this thread. Being opposed to same sex marriage isn't homophobic in itself. Some gay people are also against gay marriage. Guess what? They are not homophbes either.

Reported.

Brown Bomber · 31-01-2014 01:41AM

david75 wrote: »

Reported.

For what?

david75 · 31-01-2014 01:43AM

Jernal wrote: »

Hard pressed does not mean impossible, just statistically rare. Look hard enough and you'll find people who believe the world is flat.

Out of the next hundred gays you meet in random encounters find one who opposes gay marriage. Out of the next 470 find one who opposes

Find me a similar video, made in Ireland with Irish gay people speaking out and I'll discuss it. This one is irrelevant.

Sarky · 31-01-2014 01:44AM

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

I can safely say no one is opposing equal rights.

You are. You're against gay people having the same right to civil marriage that straight people do. And you've offered absolutely nothing in the way of rational explanations as to why. Any research you quote has been debunked. Any logic you try to use has been show as flawed. All you have is your belief that giving gay people the same right to marry as straight people will somehow destroy society. You never explain HOW it'll destroy society.

You want gay people to be discriminated against, and the only reasons you have to do so are irrational.

david75 · 31-01-2014 01:45AM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

For what?

Homophobia, trolling across multiple threads and general odious behaviour.

Phill Ewinn · 31-01-2014 01:46AM

5uspect wrote: »

I've done nothing of the sort. I've simply explained to you why opposition to gay marriage can be considered homophobic when the arguments used are invalid and when this is pointed out to the person opposing gay marriage they continue to hold that untenable position. This exposes their underlying prejudices.

This isn't saying that I disagree with your view, this is simply about factual statements about research and people misrepresenting it or cherry picking results to suit their view point. This is what Iona are clearly guilty of.

Another matter is if you oppose gay marriage and why.

Rory could lose the shirt off his back or the roof over his head because of a simple rant. I rant I thought was hilarious. Waters didn't find it funny. The fact that theres people on here provoking him into an unwinable court battle is astounding.
Surely waters could just pick up the phone and have half a dozen gay people appear as witnesses that share his views on marriage? I don't get the fuss. If Rory gets a few gigs out of this thats great. But tgats all I thought he intended it to be. A publicity stunt.

david75 · 31-01-2014 01:50AM

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Rory could lose the shirt off his back or the roof over his head because of a simple rant. I rant I thought was hilarious. Waters didn't find it funny. The fact that theres people on here provoking him into an unwinable court battle is astounding.
Surely waters could just pick up the phone and have half a dozen gay people appear as witnesses that share his views on marriage? I don't get the fuss. If Rory gets a few gigs out of this thats great. But tgats all I thought he intended it to be. A publicity stunt.

Provoking him? Em, as usual you're wrong. He didn't go to his solicitors or want to bring anything to court. Your pals did.
Also he hardly needs publicity and is above stunts to gain them. He's a leader and a brilliant spokesperson for the LGBTQ community in Ireland. Head along to Pride this year and listen to his keynote. An amazing orator and a huge intellect.

Really hope that he's taking part in the debate on RTE this Saturday. He'll make mincemeat of Waters and O Brien.

Sarky · 31-01-2014 01:51AM

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Rory could lose the shirt off his back or the roof over his head because of a simple rant. I rant I thought was hilarious. Waters didn't find it funny. The fact that theres people on here provoking him into an unwinable court battle is astounding.
Surely waters could just pick up the phone and have half a dozen gay people appear as witnesses that share his views on marriage? I don't get the fuss. If Rory gets a few gigs out of this thats great. But tgats all I thought he intended it to be. A publicity stunt.

God forbid he'd call them "really horrible and mean" to gay people because they're really horrible and mean to gay people. No, you're right, he just wanted the extra business because you think he's not being discriminated against by a homophobic Catholic lobby group.

Brown Bomber · 31-01-2014 01:53AM

5uspect wrote: »

I've done nothing of the sort. I've simply explained to you why opposition to gay marriage can be considered homophobic when the arguments used are invalid and when this is pointed out to the person opposing gay marriage they continue to hold that untenable position. This exposes their underlying prejudices.

This isn't saying that I disagree with your view, this is simply about factual statements about research and people misrepresenting it or cherry picking results to suit their view point. This is what Iona are clearly guilty of.

Another matter is if you oppose gay marriage and why.

So you think that gay French guy in the video is homophobic?

And him ?
Gay Voices Against Gay Marriage: Phillippe Arino

and him?

Gay Voices Against Gay Marriage: Jean Pier

and him?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XudIRMMPEU

david75 · 31-01-2014 02:06AM

Both irrelevant to the matter at hand, they don't live in Ireland and aren't party to the debate. And the last one is particularly silly. He just seems like he wants to be accepted by his neighbours so took part in this in order to be accepted. Or potentially has further political aspirations and wants to fence himself in order to advance. Obviously lots of homophobia in France too.

Brown Bomber · 31-01-2014 02:12AM

david75 wrote: »

Both irrelevant to the matter at hand, they don't live in Ireland and aren't party to the debate.

???

It's the same debate and perfectly relevant. What is irrelevant are the national borders which separate those people from us. I'm not trying to pretend it's common, I'd doubt highly and actually have no idea I just want to establish if a openly and happily gay person can be a "homophobe".

And why does one set of a group get to dictate to the other who is and isn't homophobic?

david75 · 31-01-2014 02:20AM

It's a totally different country! He has the choice to make that decision for himself over in France and it NOT affect every other gay person in that country! It's a completely different situation here! We don't have the ability to make the determination about a position on marriage for or against, because we don't have the option to begin with!
He's making a stand from the gilded position of being able to marry or decide not to. We don't have that! It's not even about marriage, that's just become the focus, it's about equality! And gay people in this country do not share equal status! That's what this is about, the marriage debate is just the crux as a dynamo really.
Go and find me relevant videos from Ireland. From the last two years. Then we'll talk. And even at that, it's one guy. Talking in a YouTube video!!

I can make a YouTube video saying id like to get married. Does it have a bearing? Not one bit.
Nor do these.
Up your game, your position using random videos is weak I'm afraid.

WoolyJumper · 31-01-2014 02:36AM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

So you think that gay French guy in the video is homophobic?

And him ?
Gay Voices Against Gay Marriage: Phillippe Arino

and him?

Gay Voices Against Gay Marriage: Jean Pier

and him?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XudIRMMPEU

Yes I would call them homophobic, as a gay man I can tell you I was once the most homophobic person I knew..even after I came out. I had a strong dislike towards the gay community and any gay person I considered "in your face" The more I accepted my self I started to realise much of that was down to some internal homophobia I was holding on to. I had no real reason to dislike the gay community or "camp" gay men, hell I didn't even give myself a chance to get to know them.

Also France is a big place...the people behind this video had their own agenda. They scoured France for as much gay men as they could find to speak out against gay marriage...so that's 4 they found? not very many considering the population of France.

lynski · 31-01-2014 02:36AM

Even if many gay people opposed marriage equality it would not matter. denying a perosn a right available to others is inequality.
I could decide to marry anyone i wanted for any reason i wanted to marry them. I did not have to justify it to anyone. alli had to do was sign the papers and turn up on the day. that is as much interference the state has in my marriage.
That anyone else over the legal age of sound mind is denied that right is an inequality.
I cant see the argument against it.
I did not ask any church to be involved in my marriage in any way, it is nothing to do with them and none of their business.
It is time we treated all citizens the same.

Brown Bomber · 31-01-2014 02:38AM

david75 wrote: »

It's a totally different country! He has the choice to make that decision for himself over in France and it NOT affect every other gay person in that country! It's a completely different situation here! We don't have the ability to make the determination about a position on marriage for or against, because we don't have the option to begin with!
He's making a stand from the gilded position of being able to marry or decide not to. We don't have that! It's not even about marriage, that's just become the focus, it's about equality! And gay people in this country do not share equal status! That's what this is about, the marriage debate is just the crux as a dynamo really.
Go and find me relevant videos from Ireland. From the last two years. Then we'll talk. And even at that, it's one guy. Talking in a YouTube video!!

I can make a YouTube video saying id like to get married. Does it have a bearing? Not one bit.
Nor do these.
Up your game, your position using random videos is weak I'm afraid.

To be clear I am not arguing against gay marriage, I don't really have a formed opinion on that. I just want to know if an openly gay man can be "homophobic". Since you've rejected the French guys I present to you Irish and gay journalist (or should it be gay Irish journalist? Whichever way is meant in a friendly tone) Paddy Manning, openly gay and publically against gay marriage. So the question is - Is this gay man a "homophobe"?
http://thickerthantalk.blogspot.se/2013/11/this-piece-was-published-in-irish-daily.html

Turtwig · 31-01-2014 02:38AM

This is really simple. If one black person opposes inter racial marriage what does that tell us?

Swap black for gay. Or possibly use both.

If it's still not obvious. Of course a gay person can be homophobic!

Phill Ewinn · 31-01-2014 02:39AM

lynski wrote: »

Even if many gay people opposed marriage equality it would not matter. denying a perosn a right available to others is inequality

Then theres lots of inequality in society beside same sex marriage. You'd find examples everywhere. People whos rights are trampled for the benefit of society as a whole.

lynski · 31-01-2014 02:41AM

but this is an easy fix. the right to marry is individual, make it so.

Hotblack Desiato · 31-01-2014 02:41AM

Jernal wrote: »

If it's still not obvious. Of course a gay person can be homophobic!

Plenty of them in clerical garb...

Turtwig · 31-01-2014 02:42AM

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Then theres lots of inequality in society beside same sex marriage. You'd find examples everywhere. People whos rights are trampled for the benefit of society as a whole.

Indeed, but just because global poverty and inequality is a massive issue doesn't mean the health of your neighbour is irrelevant or vice versa. Now, if you wish to discuss those other issues impacting society feel free to do so in ANOTHER thread.

Phill Ewinn · 31-01-2014 02:42AM

Jernal wrote: »

This is really simple. If one black person opposes inter racial marriage what does that tell us?

Swap black for gay. Or possibly use both.

If it's still not obvious. Of course a gay person can be homophobic!

Are they homophobic? Or is it that you need your bias opinion re-inforced? Rocky road that. Rocky.

david75 · 31-01-2014 02:42AM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

To be clear I am not arguing against gay marriage, I don't really have a formed opinion on that. I just want to know if an openly gay man can be "homophobic". Since you've rejected the French guys I present to you Irish and gay journalist (or should it be gay Irish journalist? Whichever way is meant in a friendly tone) Paddy Manning, openly gay and publically against gay marriage. So the question is - Is this gay man a "homophobe"?
http://thickerthantalk.blogspot.se/2013/11/this-piece-was-published-in-irish-daily.html

Some gay people have an internalised homophobia, almost always linked with a self loathing. Most of this coming from their uprbringing and their families not accepting them and those sort of sad situations. Human reactions to human difficulties.

Hotblack Desiato · 31-01-2014 02:42AM

SW wrote: »

@BB and now that I think of it, we don't know Rory isn't going to court. All we know is what Rte did.

We should crowd-fund him to go to court. Although it'd be almost impossible to compete with Iona's very wealthy and secretive backers.

lynski · 31-01-2014 02:43AM

and just because we have inequality in one area does not make it ok for another area to be unequal.
oh and who by law has their rights trampled on, just curious?

Brown Bomber · 31-01-2014 02:44AM

WoolyJumper wrote: »

Yes I would call them homophobic, as a gay man I can tell you I was once the most homophobic person I knew..even after I came out. I had a strong dislike towards the gay community and any gay person I considered "in your face" The more I accepted my self I started to realise much of that was down to some internal homophobia I was holding on to. I had no real reason to dislike the gay community or "camp" gay men, hell I didn't even give myself a chance to get to know them.

Also France is a big place...the people behind this video had their own agenda. They scoured France for as much gay men as they could find to speak out against gay marriage...so that's 4 they found? not very many considering the population of France.

Thanks for your honesty. It is refreshing to hear people speaking from the heart and not be point-scoring. I concede all your points but there is no indication at all that any of these men are in anyway homophobic other than the value they place in a traditional family.

Hotblack Desiato · 31-01-2014 02:46AM

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Bare in mind I haven't lived in Ireland for years.

Ireland is changing. Do try to keep up.

Brown Bomber · 31-01-2014 02:48AM

Jernal wrote: »

This is really simple. If one black person opposes inter racial marriage what does that tell us?

Swap black for gay. Or possibly use both.

If it's still not obvious. Of course a gay person can be homophobic!

That doesn't work. Your comparison would be an anti-black racist who was black themselves opposing a black person marrying another black person.

Iona vs Panti

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